I'll never know what really happened

[Progster]

Last year, my sister and her boyfriend, the boyfriend's parents and my mum went on holiday together.

I think my mum felt the way that you felt, because she has mobility issues and couldn't get about easily, and they wanted to go and do their own thing so she was left on her own.

I think that the details of such a holiday, where people might want to different things and have different needs, need to be discussed and worked out before the holiday (vacation) begins. Perhaps agree that people do their own thing during the day, and then meet up in the evening. Or agree that one meal should be cooked in the apartment, and one eaten out, or that there should be a quiet time after a certain hour, or for a couple of ours in the afternoon, etc. In that situation, compromises need to be agreed on at the beginning, and if the parties are unwilling to compromise, then it's best not to go on holiday together.

I think that @Pats ' family handled the situation badly and were very unfair to her. They were selfish. They should have taken on board these issues, and made an effort to be more accommodating of Pats.

 

[Lemongrab]

What a difficult time, I really struggle with in laws on holidays. Still, it sounds like you are a great grandparent.

 

[Pats]

Last year, my sister and her boyfriend, the boyfriend's parents and my mum went on holiday together.

I think my mum felt the way that you felt, because she has mobility issues and couldn't get about easily, and they wanted to go and do their own thing so she was left on her own.

I think that the details of such a holiday, where people might want to different things and have different needs, need to be discussed and worked out before the holiday (vacation) begins. Perhaps agree that people do their own thing during the day, and then meet up in the evening. Or agree that one meal should be cooked in the apartment, and one eaten out, or that there should be a quiet time after a certain hour, or for a couple of ours in the afternoon, etc. In that situation, compromises need to be agreed on at the beginning, and if the parties are unwilling to compromise, then it's best not to go on holiday together.

I think that @Pats ' family handled the situation badly and were very unfair to her. They were selfish. They should have taken on board these issues, and made an effort to be more accommodating of Pats.

We had discussed some things before the trip. Before this one every year my daughter would ask me to come with them to babysit and those trips, they always tried to make sure to try to do something I wanted to do. This trip, I paid my portion and made sure they knew I was not going as a babysitter and we all agreed to do things we all wanted to do. I don't know what happened this time. And last year they all went and my other daughter called me several times venting over the same complaints I had and she said she wasn't doing it again either. (But she's the one that's undiagnosed ASD).

 

[Pats]

What a difficult time, I really struggle with in laws on holidays. Still, it sounds like you are a great grandparent.

My grandkids love me. I can see it when their faces light up with excitement when I enter the room. And the great thing about it is that you really don't have to work that hard at it.

 

[BraidedPony]

So in the past they would invite you to come along as a baby sitter?
I don’t have kids and grandkids but that offer would hurt my feelings.

 

[Pats]

So in the past they would invite you to come along as a baby sitter?
I don’t have kids and grandkids but that offer would hurt my feelings.

Never thought about it like that. I was asked to come along and enjoy the vacation but in the evening if they wanted to go out I could babysit. They know I love being with the grandkids. I didn't mind at all. Unlike my sister who gets invited to come along as a babysitter and has to pay her own way. Now THAT would bother me.

 

[Pats]

I think the hardest thing about my diagnosis was learning how little I valued other peoples' views, thoughts, opinions, and interests. I put people in VERY similar situations to what I've described above, where they probably felt like I was impossible to please and I never gave them any appreciation or credit for their efforts in hospitality. While you may feel like your kids are being poorly disciplined, rude, and outrageous, they probably feel like they've worked very hard to ensure each other are having a nice time; cooking meals, buying nice beers, co-organizing a holiday, etc. To have someone there acting like they didn't do anything right would be very upsetting for them. Also, why should their whole holiday be about you and what you want? Why should their relaxation time be tailored around how you like to relax? If you don't want to have a beer or smoke a joint--then don't! But hang around, listen to their funny stories, watch your beautiful children being great siblings to each other and enjoying the company of family--these are all wonderful things to enjoy! And it's too easy to disregard all those positives as negatives simply because 'it's not what you'd do if you were them'.

I guess I missed this before. No, I won't accept part of the blame except for the venting, which I should have kept to myself. If I mentioned doing something and one of them said, no we're doing this. I'd say okay and either joined them or not. They know me and they know I don't like water stuff and it's fine that they wanted to go. I didn't act or say anything in such a way to take away from their enjoyment, plans, whatever. I was venting because I thought no one was there, but happened my son in law was still sleeping off his hangover and felt like he told everyone what all I has said. I was not having a good time but I was trying to make it work up until the time they all started ignoring me, making comments (which I felt was to let me know they were aware of what I had said) and when I started feeling attacked is the part that I have a problem with. And that's what no one will acknowledge - even if I've said due to my venting I understand them getting upset with me but they deny it still.
I've taken a back seat my whole life and used to that - but don't get mad at me then say you weren't and don't remember any of that happening.

 

[Autistamatic]

I've noticed this double standard too often. It's easy enough to spot passive-aggressive behaviour and equally easy to be hurt by it. The same people who think their aggression is hidden by their apparent silence or denial can be all to quick to label you as aggressive, incorrect or mad/paranoid/senile when you try to talk about it. It's that age old battle of groups who think alike versus objective observation.

 

[FlowerChild]

No, I won't accept part of the blame except for the venting,

Okay, well I'll be honest - if this is how you're going to approach the situation, that's your prerogative. But --re: your title 'I'll never know what really happened'-- you're really wanting genuine insight into what DID happen, then you need to accept the fact that you may have played a hand in the tension on this trip. Further, it may have NOTHING to do with the phone call. IT took me years to work this out, but often times NT's can intuit your moods without you saying anything literal to them. The pick up on micro-aggressions and passive aggression, on tension, on sarcasm, and on ambivalence--all without us saying a word. Now I realise that people CAN intuit my mood even if I don't tell them, so I always try to calculate how my moods/actions/words will impact people around me. If I know I've upset somebody but I'm not quite sure how, I usually 'reverse' my own diary entries to try to understand; that is to say, I try to write myself letters from my loved ones explaining how I made them feel.

For example, to reverse bits of your post: "A few years ago my mom came to the beach with us. It started out fine but by day three she seemed miserable. It seemed like we couldn't do anything right. We'd worked so hard to organise this family vacation after a hard year's work, and we felt terrible that she seemed so unhappy the whole time.

At the end of a long day diligently watching our kids in the water, making them snacks, negotiating their arguments, and wiping their tears, all we wanted was to enjoy each others' company on the porch with a beer--we needed to RELAX. But we felt SO harshly judged for this--there was no way to relax because we were so worried about upsetting mom. One night, my brother worked so hard trying to make a nice Mexican dinner for us to share, and I could tell he was trying to make her proud of the man he's grown up to be. She didn't see it like that; she was watching us like a hawk when she realised we wanted a nice cool beer to compliment it. She was tense for the whole dinner, and I could see he was devastated by her response--it hurt me to see him upset. I tried to consider her feelings by encouraging the others to avoid drinking in front of her, but that seemed to upset her even more.

By a few days in, we could see things were cycling downhill fast, so we tried to make more of an effort to include her. We thought some company from the grandkids might cheer her up, but she just got upset that we left them with her. When we tired letting her pick the destination for our beach walk, but she seemed suspicious of this for reasons unknown to us. When we sat on the patio to have a beer later, she came and joined us; we knew she didn't want us drinking, so we went inside to try to be polite. When she came inside we could tell she was in a bad mood, so we tried to give her some space. Before we knew it she was loading up her car and leaving--all of us were terribly confused and upset by this development, and it was upsetting trying to explain it to the children. However, by this point, we'd just had enough and decided to let her leave rather than let the tension escalate any further. We did our best to enjoy the rest of our holiday, but the whole thing was very difficult for us."

No idea how accurate this is. Maybe they did hear your phone call--I don't claim to know. But if you're genuinely wanting a better understanding of how and why other people react to you the way they do, you may need to consider how your behaviours make them feel.

 

[Pats]

Okay, well I'll be honest - if this is how you're going to approach the situation, that's your prerogative. But --re: your title 'I'll never know what really happened'-- you're really wanting genuine insight into what DID happen, then you need to accept the fact that you may have played a hand in the tension on this trip. Further, it may have NOTHING to do with the phone call. IT took me years to work this out, but often times NT's can intuit your moods without you saying anything literal to them. The pick up on micro-aggressions and passive aggression, on tension, on sarcasm, and on ambivalence--all without us saying a word. Now I realise that people CAN intuit my mood even if I don't tell them, so I always try to calculate how my moods/actions/words will impact people around me. If I know I've upset somebody but I'm not quite sure how, I usually 'reverse' my own diary entries to try to understand; that is to say, I try to write myself letters from my loved ones explaining how I made them feel.

For example, to reverse bits of your post: "A few years ago my mom came to the beach with us. It started out fine but by day three she seemed miserable. It seemed like we couldn't do anything right. We'd worked so hard to organise this family vacation after a hard year's work, and we felt terrible that she seemed so unhappy the whole time.

At the end of a long day diligently watching our kids in the water, making them snacks, negotiating their arguments, and wiping their tears, all we wanted was to enjoy each others' company on the porch with a beer--we needed to RELAX. But we felt SO harshly judged for this--there was no way to relax because we were so worried about upsetting mom. One night, my brother worked so hard trying to make a nice Mexican dinner for us to share, and I could tell he was trying to make her proud of the man he's grown up to be. She didn't see it like that; she was watching us like a hawk when she realised we wanted a nice cool beer to compliment it. She was tense for the whole dinner, and I could see he was devastated by her response--it hurt me to see him upset. I tried to consider her feelings by encouraging the others to avoid drinking in front of her, but that seemed to upset her even more.

By a few days in, we could see things were cycling downhill fast, so we tried to make more of an effort to include her. We thought some company from the grandkids might cheer her up, but she just got upset that we left them with her. When we tired letting her pick the destination for our beach walk, but she seemed suspicious of this for reasons unknown to us. When we sat on the patio to have a beer later, she came and joined us; we knew she didn't want us drinking, so we went inside to try to be polite. When she came inside we could tell she was in a bad mood, so we tried to give her some space. Before we knew it she was loading up her car and leaving--all of us were terribly confused and upset by this development, and it was upsetting trying to explain it to the children. However, by this point, we'd just had enough and decided to let her leave rather than let the tension escalate any further. We did our best to enjoy the rest of our holiday, but the whole thing was very difficult for us."

No idea how accurate this is. Maybe they did hear your phone call--I don't claim to know. But if you're genuinely wanting a better understanding of how and why other people react to you the way they do, you may need to consider how your behaviours make them feel.

This was not typical for my kids and you are making assumptions of mine and my kids usual relationships. They know I don't like drinking but never hesitate drinking in front of me. They bring their own beer to my house when I have them all here for a holiday get together.
The night before we were all sitting on the porch using paddles to bat balloons back and forth.
I appreciate you trying to point out a possibility, but, as I said you are making the assumption that I am like your mother and that my kids would be responding as you would. I couldn't make my kids feel guilty if I stomped and screamed and cried. lol If one of them literally stabbed me we would all agree it was an accident. I don't guilt my kids and have always let them be who they are.
But thanks for your reply. I do appreciate other views, but I will also examine whether they could be a possibility or not.
And yes, I said I played a hand in it, but not the way you are claiming.

 

[Autistamatic]

@FlowerChild There's nobility in your post, I really do believe, but objective truth most likely lies between what @Pats has already perceived and your extrapolated version of events.
If there's any way of bridging the gap it must come from both sides. Pats has already expressed her doubts and her willingness to find middle ground, but an outright denial of the causes of the tension from the others involved will not help the formulation of a resolution.
I won't deny that the Aspie in the equation can sometimes worsen a situation, but I think that Pats has already expressed doubts and remorse enough to try to put things right, however if the other side are united in their denial of the rift, there is little to be gained by saying "Oh I see why you're cheesed off with me" without reciprocal sentiments from the other side.

 

[FlowerChild]

you are making the assumption that I am like your mother and that my kids would be responding as you would

not really - I'm basing my post off of your post (tone, information, timeline, etc.). This has nothing to do with my relationship with my mother.

I just don't see any responses in this thread where you've acknowledged that, perhaps, you did something to hurt any of your kids. It's always how wrong they were, how much they hurt you, etc. So I was just trying to indicate that sometimes it's necessary to consider other peoples' feelings if you want to really understand their behaviour. I'll leave it at this, because I don't want to get into an argument or anything, I was genuinely trying to help. Best wishes with everything.

 

[FlowerChild]

@FlowerChild There's nobility in your post, I really do believe, but objective truth most likely lies between what @Pats has already perceived and your extrapolated version of events.

agreed!

 

[Ylva]

I guess it's possible – and I don't know how likely this is, but it seems possible – that their passive-aggression, or most of it, was unconscious on their part. A variant is that maybe your hungover son-in-law did overhear, but didn't tell anyone. In his hungover state it angered him more than it should have, and he was the true passive aggressor while the others unconsciously followed his lead.

 

[Pats]

My original post was actually saying this was the reason I knew something was wrong with me - that I would feel the need to hide from my own kids.
Please re-read the first 2 lines:
I'm going to take a chance on appearing crazy here, but this event is what made me realize that something was wrong with me and soon after realized then went to specialist and diagnosed with autism.

A few years ago, paying my fourth of the expenses, I accepted the invitation and went to the beach with my youngest daughter and her family, my oldest daughter and her family and my youngest son and his family. The only thing I enjoyed about it was being with my grandkids.

My son in law went months not speaking to me and the rest acted as if nothing had ever happened and denied any memory of the events. That drove me nuts.
When I felt like something was terribly wrong with me that I would feel that threatened from my own kids (I have no reason to feel that way because we did and DO have a good relationship), but that's what got me looking things up and realizing that female aspie traits fit so perfectly so I went and was formally diagnosed with HFA.
My kids are great. They are mature, caring, considerate, etc and we are all very open with each other without arguments so this trip was very out of character for them. If I was bugging them they would not have had a problem telling me. Or at the least, throwing me a couple glares. lol

 

[Pats]

I guess it's possible – and I don't know how likely this is, but it seems possible – that their passive-aggression, or most of it, was unconscious on their part. A variant is that maybe your hungover son-in-law did overhear, but didn't tell anyone. In his hungover state it angered him more than it should have, and he was the true passive aggressor while the others unconsciously followed his lead.

possibly. I just felt he shared the information because there were a couple comments that quoted me word for word. It could have been coincidental. And I realize now that once I perceived the threat everything could have been magnified.

 

[Pats]

And because the denial of the event by them and my being unsure of whether or not I magnified things, I will never know what really happened.

 

[Ylva]

possibly. I just felt he shared the information because there were a couple comments that quoted me word for word. It could have been coincidental. And I realize now that once I perceived the threat everything could have been magnified.

He could have shared with his wife, but I somehow doubt he quoted the entire conversation. Maybe he has a tic disorder and was echolalling you in her presence. Maybe I'm just making up too specific theories for the available information…

A touch of paranoia maybe comes with the territory. There are so many subtle NT social signals that it looks like a super-secret spy language to us who don't naturally get it.