Ill-advised reasons to learn a language other than English

[Myrtonos]

What are the commonly given reasons that you refer to?

To get an idea on what commonly given reasons are ill-advised, remember that language isn't thought and achieving a comprehensible accent is often pretty trivial compared to getting the accent exactly right.

Examples? Which reasons would be ok/acceptable?

To see which reasons would be acceptable, let's consider what are very good reasons to learn a second language. One obvious one is going to a country or area what that's the dominant language. Another is gaining successful relationships with native speakers of that language and yet another is translating into your native language.

In our previous discussion on the topic, we discussed whether learning a foreign language should be manditory as opposed to optional, and given the same weight as core subjects such as maths and science, because we might never need to actually use the foreign language in real life, unlike maths, which is a skill we are all going to use. Learning a language is often a matter of economic/geopolitics, where two countries with strong business ties learn each other's language.

Not just because why might never need to use that, but because of differences between learning a second language and learning core subjects in, well, the language of the school where they are taught.

Here are some examples of ill-advised reasons for us to learn a language other than English, quoted:

I think it's pretty cool when someone can fluently speak different languages, though. I think the best part would be that you could make fun of someone who doesn't know a word of it, and they wouldn't know what you just said.

One good reason FOR learning a second language in childhood is that the brain is especially fertile for language acquisition at that time - a capacity which drops off drastically by age 20 and even more so by age 60.

AND language is the vehicle by which we reason and understand. Without language, ideas and logic have no vessels for use, transport, or trade (try to think anything without using words or concepts learned from communication).

Languages are structured differently, and offer different ways of constructing and communicating ideas. Learning multiple languages can release the mind from rigid constructs built into a native language, make language fallacies more obvious, and generally increase cognitive function.

Further: offers the same cognitive benefits in a slightly different way.

Well, so if they are the only reasons someone says all school children should learn at least one other language, you might want to think if such a requirement on that basis might be hasty.

 

[Crossbreed]

Grant you the ability to shape shift, time travel, and/or teleport.

Then Arrival (2016) was right...!?

Spoiler

Those aliens really should have been nicknamed Kang & Kodos, instead...

 

[Progster]

To get an idea on what commonly given reasons are ill-advised, remember that language isn't thought and achieving a comprehensible accent is often pretty trivial compared to getting the accent exactly right.

What do you mean by "language isn't thought"? Thoughts by definition make use of language. Unless the thought is in pictures.
Learning a language isn't all about having an accent. It's about communication. I might be capable of pronouncing a sentence in Japanese perfectly, without having the slightes notion of what that sentence means. I might speak with a perfect accent, yet with so many grammar and syntax errors that my sentence is incomprehensible. Or I might speak with perfect grammar and an obvious foreign accent, but still make myself understood.

Here are some examples of ill-advised reasons for us to learn a language other than English, quoted:

I agree that learning a language in order to make fun or someone would be 'ill-advised', but the other reasons quoted seem like good, positive reasons to learn a language to me.

 

[Myrtonos]

What do you mean by "language isn't thought"? Thoughts by definition make use of language. Unless the thought is in pictures.

Really, we don't think in words, we transcribe thought in words.

Learning a language isn't all about having an accent. It's about communication. I might be capable of pronouncing a sentence in Japanese perfectly, without having the slightes notion of what that sentence means. I might speak with a perfect accent, yet with so many grammar and syntax errors that my sentence is incomprehensible. Or I might speak with perfect grammar and an obvious foreign accent, but still make myself understood.

Learning to speak a language, as opposed to reading and writing, is indeed mainly about having a comprehensible accent. The thing is that even those who didn't learn a second language until their teens can still easily achieve a comprehensible accent, and can even still understand and be understood by native speakers of that language. Actually, there was a prominent member on that other forum who is a native Spanish speaker, who started learning English in her teens and (as I could tell from a recording of her voice) did speak with a comprehensible accent.
Her written English seemed quite fine, I don't recall any grammatical errors in her posts.

I agree that learning a language in order to make fun or someone would be 'ill-advised', but the other reasons quoted seem like good, positive reasons to learn a language to me.

As noted, ill-advised reasons aren't necessarily terrible reasons but supposed the other reason I quoted are the only reasons someone thinks all schoolchildren (in English-speaking countries) should learn at least one foreign language, could that be hasty?

 

[Progster]

Learning to speak a language, as opposed to reading and writing, is indeed mainly about having a comprehensible accent.

I don't think that speaking a language is mainly about having an accent, but partly. People learn to speak it, as opposed to the more academic approach of reading and translating, primarily in order to communicate with others. For that, you need a combination of a proper use of grammar, vocabulary and syntax, as well as a reasonably clear accent. One might make one or two errors of sytax, grammar and vocabulary, as well as have a noticeable foreign accent, and still be understood. Having a decent accent is just one component of a set of skills one needs to communicate in a language. As a language teacher, my focus with my students is on accurate communication, and I only focus on improving the accent and pronuntiation/intonation where I see that it is affecting their communication.

Of course, accurate pronunciation is more important in some languages than others. In Mandarin Chinese, for example, the word "ma" can mean mother, horse, hemp or to scold, depending on the tone of the word, So in that case, it's important to pronounce the word exactly right.

could that be hasty?

I don't understand the use of the word "hasty" here, could you please explain what you mean?

 

[Myrtonos]

I don't think that speaking a language is mainly about having an accent, but partly. People learn to speak it, as opposed to the more academic approach of reading and translating, primarily in order to communicate with others. For that, you need a combination of a proper use of grammar, vocabulary and syntax, as well as a reasonably clear accent. One might make one or two errors of sytax, grammar and vocabulary, as well as have a noticeable foreign accent, and still be understood. Having a decent accent is just one component of a set of skills one needs to communicate in a language. As a language teacher, my focus with my students is on accurate communication, and I only focus on improving the accent and pronuntiation/intonation where I see that it is affecting their communication.

I did say 'as opposed to reading and writing'. One needs proper use of grammar and vocabulary even for writing in that language, but getting a comprehensible accent is only relevant for speaking the language.

Of course, accurate pronunciation is more important in some languages than others. In Mandarin Chinese, for example, the word "ma" can mean mother, horse, hemp or to scold, depending on the tone of the word, So in that case, it's important to pronounce the word exactly right.

There is more than one spoken variety of Chinese (Cantonese being another), it is a massive challenge to achieve even a comprehensible accent in all of them because of a distinction between tones. Meanwhile, there is a written form of Chinese that's the same everywhere, so I wonder if Chinese lessons in the west are often more focused on reading and writing, and not (so much) on the spoken language.

I don't understand the use of the word "hasty" here, could you please explain what you mean?

Okay, I don't simply mean it's ill-advised to learn another language for these reasons but that it's ill-advised to learn only for those reasons.

 

[Progster]

but getting a comprehensible accent is only relevant for speaking the language.

Yes, this is true.

There is more than one spoken variety of Chinese (Cantonese being another), it is a massive challenge to achieve even a comprehensible accent in all of them because of a distinction between tones. Meanwhile, there is a written form of Chinese that's the same everywhere, so I wonder if Chinese lessons in the west are often more focused on reading and writing, and not (so much) on the spoken language.

Any knowledge I have of it (very little) is purely academic, I don't know how it is usually taught in a classroom. I imagine that they would have to pay more attention to pronunciation, as it is so crucial to communication, not less. But again, it depends on your motivation for learning.

Okay, I don't simply mean it's ill-advised to learn another language for these reasons but that it's ill-advised to learn only for those reasons.

What reason one has for learning is personal to the individual, and whether that reason is a good one or not, is purely subjective. For me, learning at an early age to hit that sweet spot of natural language aquisition mentioned by @Dr. Eh Hol while the brain is still developing is a good idea on it's own, and a reason why so many "immersion" English speaking kindergartens have sprung up in countries such as Romania.

People learn for a variety or reasons: to pass exams, to communicate on the internet, a doctor might want to go to conferences held in English and need to follow speeches/lectures, a business person needs to do business in English, etc, a student wants to study abroad, an older adult wants to do brain training or just have a hobby, because they intend moving to another country, because they want to date a person who speaks another language, an autistic person has a special interest in languages and wants to learn languages because they get pleasure out of it or just because they can - for me these are all valid reasons for learning a language on their own - people might have more than one reason for learning. Learning a language to make fun out of someone who doesn't understand, or to show off, or because the school says they have to, but they are struggling and probably won't ever have any practical use for it, these for me would be "ill-advised" reasons, but I can only speak for myself, I can't speak for others.

I have started learning languages in the past simply because I have become obsessed with a band or pieces of music in that language, and have wanted to understand them. For another person, this might be an "ill-advised" reason, but for me, it was a strong motivation and a reason, but others can't speak for me just as I can't speak for others.

 

[Myrtonos]

"but getting a comprehensible accent is only relevant for speaking the language.
Yes, this is true."

Any knowledge I have of it (very little) is purely academic, I don't know how it is usually taught in a classroom. I imagine that they would have to pay more attention to pronunciation, as it is so crucial to communication, not less. But again, it depends on your motivation for learning.

But what I'm saying is that those only learning the written language (same everywhere in China and Taiwan) don't need to pay any attention to pronunciation at all.

What reason one has for learning is personal to the individual, and whether that reason is a good one or not, is purely subjective. For me, learning at an early age to hit that sweet spot of natural language aquisition mentioned by @Dr. Eh Hol while the brain is still developing is a good idea on it's own, and a reason why so many "immersion" English speaking kindergartens have sprung up in countries such as Romania.

This doesn't just or even so much concern a person's own motivation for learning a second language but motivations of governments of English-speaking countries, and the benefits of learning at an early age might not be enough on their own. I'm not sure that learning at an early age just to hit that spot is a good idea, there probably need to be other reasons as well.
In countries like Romania, they already have other reasons for learning English, communicating with native speakers of other languages that have English as a common second language and maybe even translating from English to Romanian, so that would be part of the motivation. I wonder if Romanians hoping for their children to get a perfect accent in English might be another, it's very common for those learning a foreign language to hope to achieve a perfect accent.
Again, think of those who didn't learn until their teens but still speak with a comprehensible accent and proper use of grammar and vocabulary. Case in point is that member registered on that other forum as RiRi.

 

[Progster]

But what I'm saying is that those only learning the written language (same everywhere in China and Taiwan) don't need to pay any attention to pronunciation at all.

I agree, if you only need/want to learn the written language, then you don't need to pay so much attention to the pronunciation.

This doesn't just or even so much concern a person's own motivation for learning a second language but motivations of governments of English-speaking countries

Motivations for languages to be taught on the school curriculum is a different matter. Of course, they have different motivations.

I wonder if Romanians hoping for their children to get a perfect accent in English might be another, it's very common for those learning a foreign language to hope to achieve a perfect accent.

This is one reason why Romanians, or anyone wanting their child to learn English, might choose a native speaker teacher over a non-native speaker. It is one thing that they might aim for, but also, there are other reasons: there is great competition for places in top schools and universities, and they want their children to learn English to qualify for these schools, to get better grades or to obtain a certificate/qualification.

 

[Rasputin]

My view is that learning any new language that one is interested in is beneficial both for mental health reasons and in broadening one's perspective and understanding of another culture.

My family has roots in Prussia, and I was interested in understanding their experiences which led them to immigrate to the United States. This became one of my special interests, and I wanted to be able to talk to people in their native language as well as be able to read books and manuscripts written in their language. Additionally, I traveled to Lithuania, where my grandfather lived as a boy and searched for family records in the Lithuanian State Archives. All of these motivations led me to study German in University and to attend Lithuanian school as an adult to learn about their culture and language.

Clearly, one does not need to have a particular reason to justify learning another language. The act of learning is by itself good, so I fail to see how any reasons for learning could be ill-advised.

 

[Myrtonos]

If you are considering learning another living language, be sure you are learning the right one for the right reasons.

 

[tree]

Please do elaborate.

How would a person go about selecting the correct language?
And how would a person ascertain that he or she has chosen
that language for the truly correct reasons?

 

[Myrtonos]

If what you need to do is communicate, it shouldn't be that hard, you learn the other language in which you need to communicate.