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Good language skills and Empathy. On the spectrum?

Phanelope

Active Member
So I know autism is known as a disorder that affects language and social skills. But can you be on the spectrum despite having some strong skills in this area?

My 10 year old was diagnosed with ADHD and GAD (generalised anxiety disorder) at 8. He was later suspected to have ASD by his Psychiatrist but did not meet DSM5 criteria when formally assessed. The reason was because he was found to have above average language and social skills. He did meet the criteria for restrictive and repetitive interests and sensory responses. We were told what we were seeing was just the ADHD and GAD. However his current paediatrician is even starting to query the ADHD, and telling us he is “normal”, so how do we explain his behaviour?

Here is a rundown of what I observe in his social and language skills.

Expressive language skills.

Verbal
Very enthusiastic when talking about things that interest him (science). Will often find a way to bring his interests into a conversation even when not relevant. Will rarely have a conversation that does not involve science or facts at some point. Often rocks or sways when talking. Uses lots of facial expressions and hand gestures. More than the average person. Eye contact can be quite intense. Can often give facts to people when univited. Uses a large vocabulary and in appropriate contexts.

Written
Poor written skills. Messy handwriting and awkward pencil grip. Left handed but will occasionally use right hand awkwardly. Misuse of capitals. Some letters are reversed.

Receptive language skills

Verbal
Will listen attentively if it’s a topic of interest. Will listen when not a topic of interest but often fidgets or sways. Interrupts frequently and argues points made, even if he is making the same point. Eye contact wanes. Often appears not to hear people when they are greeting him, or will not respond in an unobvious way (ie. Will quietly say “hello” in reply to his chest). Can misinterpret body language and facial expression. Often thinking people are angry or sad when they aren’t, and seeming not to understand when people have had enough.

Reading
Excellent reading and comprehensions skills. Enjoys watching documentaries and information videos and can sit attentively watching for hours, only stopping to share a new fact he might learn.

Social

Does not actively pursue friendships, however has many children interested in being his friend. Will often say he doesn’t want to go out and play with friends, but sometimes will. If forced to go out and play does not give too much resistance. Tends to argue a lot with other children and want things to be done a certain way. Has said he wants to live alone when he’s older as he doesn’t want to have to worry about another person. Likes to be alone when at parties or gatherings, but will join in with games if asked. Can sit in a large group if they are still, but gets anxious when there is a lot of noise and moving about. Is highly empathetic to people, animals and the environment. Shows many concerns about world issues. Can get very anxious about adult issues like money or parents arguing.

In addition to this he has many sensory issues. He is a poor sleeper, having trouble getting to sleep and waking up early. He likes movement and often sways, rocks or spins. He seems to like pressure and will often throw himself on the ground for no reason. He has even laid face down on the wet road in the middle of the rain. He sleeps with the blanket wrapped firmly around his face (we’re amazed he hasn’t suffocated!) he will sometimes touch the tip of his tongue to new items but doesn’t seem to chew anything. He covers his ears to sudden loud sounds and to the vacuum cleaner but tends to have the music or tv turned up very loud. On bright days he will refuse to go out, cry, or walk around with his eyes closed. Although this seems to be inconsistent. Despite knowing how to use a knife and fork he uses his hands to eat and likes to separate out each element of food (even rice!). He dislikes the elevator, but will use it now without getting too upset. He quite often makes loud and repetitive sounds. He will repeat single words that sound interesting to him, but we have not noticed any echolalia. He previously had trouble with brushing his hair and teeth but it ok now, however he still freaks out when I cut his nails. he also seems to overreact to pain.

He is very interested in science and history and general facts. Particularly in space. It is often hard to talk to him about anything without him integrating science into it.

He is a lovely boy and will show affection to close family members. We don’t get any anger tantrums, but we get many emotional outbursts due to frustration.

Does this sound like anyone you know with an ASD diagnosis?
 
Me. For the most part.

I had an Aspie moment at the doctor's today.
Being asked questions and trying to describe my symptoms I kept looking away from the doctor to the left.
We were discussing how anxiety and stress made the symptoms worse and suddenly he leaned forward and around towards the front of me with a very neutral look quietly trying to get my attention and I looked at him. He said, "...and you have Asperger's too."
Probably with a shocked looked I said yes. Then was aware and felt I needed to make eye contact while talking with him.

But, many of the actions you have described I relate to.
The psychologist who assessed me thought my language was above normal for ASD too.
And I've been a model and instructor.
But, in real time everyday life my social skills were very lacking and I had no desire for seeking friends.
My eye contact is only intense when I'm really into talking about my special interest too.
Medical arts, psychology + parapsychology. Plus some types of science.

I've had anxiety problems all my life and now I'm 60 yrs. old.
Only diagnosed 3 yrs. ago. ASD just wasn't recognised or thought about when I was growing up
or in school and I had excellent learning skills.

Here are more things you listed that fit:

Verbal
Very enthusiastic when talking about things that interest him
(and lots of hand gestures)
Written
Poor written skills. Messy handwriting and awkward pencil grip
Verbal
Will listen attentively if it’s a topic of interest. Will listen when not a topic of interest but often fidgets or sways. Interrupts frequently and argues points made, even if he is making the same point. Eye contact wanes. Often appears not to hear people when they are greeting him, or will not respond in an unobvious way
I am awkward in greeting people everyday.
Excellent reading and comprehensions skills. Enjoys watching documentaries and information videos and can sit attentively watching for hours, only stopping to share a new fact he might learn
Also does not actively pursue friendships.
I was never forced to go out to play so don't know how I would have reacted.
Likes being alone if must go to parties. Unless I find someone else who shares my same special
interest.
We just had a long thread on empathy. I think I lacked that except for my parents and pets.
The emotional type anyway.
He seems to like pressure and will often throw himself on the ground for no reason. He has even laid face down on the wet road in the middle of the rain. He sleeps with the blanket wrapped firmly around his face
Rocking chairs and soft weighted blankets with music works wonders.
Put cotton in ears growing up and couldn't stand the loud sounds. Mostly grew out of that.
I would not ride an elevator as a child and found I hated amusement park rides first one I tried.
Merry-go-rounds is about it.

Picky with foods and clothes are more sensory issues.
Mom thought she would never get me to brush my teeth. The feel was awful.
Affection has always been only for close family members. Now I have none and feel
totally alone in a world of people. Live with a house share person, but, don't like having to think
about him either. What pleases, how to act, participation and the give and take plus he has a nasty temper.
Had outbursts and tantrums earlier in life.

Lots of issues there. Hope my sharing helped.
 
But can you be on the spectrum despite having some strong skills in this area?
It deepnds on the age. As children, people on the spectrum do have strong social and non-verbal communication deficits, and this is why they receive their diagnosis. However, by the time they are adults, they have often developed coping mechanisms, learned social skills and learned to mask these deficits to the point where it's might not be imediately obvious that they are on the spectrum.

I don't know your son so I can't say for sure - only a trained doctor can do that - it's possible that your son has milder deficits and is just below the cut-off, or that if a different doctor assesses him, he might disagree with the first doctor's conclusion and give him an ASD diagnosis. It's all very subjective, dependent on the opinion of the individual doctor who assesses him.
 
Sounds to me like your psychiatrist's knowledge about ASD is somewhat behind the times. Get a new one. From your description, your child seems very much on the spectrum -- Asperger's. Not everyone on the spectrum lacks language skills. In fact, Asperger's has always required normal or above language development. ASD is a matter of degree.
 
THankyou. I have been told by a few people that the public system has quotas and so children who are borderline often don’t receive a diagnosis. I have been told to get a private assessment but this is quite expensive and I don’t really want to pay just to be told he doesn’t meet criteria again, but now that I have people in agreement maybe it is worth it. The reason I would really like a diagnosis is because it will attract funding and he will get extra support at school. At the moment we are having to fund all of his psych, OT and paediatrician appointments ourselves and it is killing us. We won’t be able to maintain it and I don’t want him to miss out.

He is quite happy now but I know once he hits high school he will be subjected to bullying as he is quite “odd”. I have been told it might also be worth having him assessed again at 13 so maybe that is a possibility.

I also have another child who I think may be on the spectrum but I’ll have to make a new thread for him as he is completely different to my 10 year old. It’s interesting what has been said about adults on the spectrum as my other son is approaching adulthood and I have noticed his social and language skills starting to improve.
 
Well I have been following a lot of autistic bloggers trying to gather more info and I’m starting to think the autism comes from me.
 
And now its just clicked even more. I often only get asked about direct family members, but every one of my cousins (on my mothers side) has got at least one child diagnosed with autism under the DS4.
 
I started reading well before kindergarten and have always had above average language skills.

You say that your son has above average social skills and perhaps in some areas this is true, however you've listed many things that seem detrimental that are present in me and which impact my social life negatively. Perhaps it's not immediately apparent to someone who hasn't had to cope with these things, but I would guess that in later life your son will seem to lack social skills.

I readily admit that I'm somewhat socially retarded in spite of being quite intelligent. I do not lack emotion or empathy and have formed some good friendships, but that is not easy and I'm often misunderstood and stick out at parties. Eight days ago a woman I met at a party, whose 'phone number I got after she left the party with me said that it was apparent that I was out of my element and that most people there probably knew it. And she likes me, so I don't think she'd have said so if she were at all unsure.

I share the following things with your son which negatively affect me socially:

Will often find a way to bring his interests into a conversation even when not relevant.
- I don't do this so much now, but I don't see that I ever really did, I can better anticipate when others might think this to be so. I relate things differently than others do at times, see the world in a different way.

Can often give facts to people when univited.
- As a child, yes. No longer so enthusiastic about helping others learn, they're not so interested as I.

Interrupts frequently and argues points made, even if he is making the same point.
- Still do this. I'll interrupt if I disagree with something you're about to build upon, since if I don't agree with the foundation I'll not be convinced by anything that is built upon it and you're wasting your time. And if I disagree with the logic used then I'll disagree with your statement as a whole even if I agree with your beginning and end.

Eye contact wanes.
- Social skill? Learning to force yourself to make eye contact without draining yourself is certainly a skill, the lack of which can make people uncomfortable. It's not always so necessary, so one might do well to learn when to force one's self to do this and when not to, another skill most people need never develop but which is necessary for many of those who have ASD.

Can misinterpret body language and facial expression.
- This is huge, particularly when dealing with romantic or sexual situations during the getting to know each other part. This alone would cause me to admit to social retardation even though it's not slowness of mind, it is a form of blindness if you will. It screws me up socially even when I'm most keen to understand what is going on, and it confuses the other person too, even when they're aware that I am poor at this and hints.

Often thinking people are angry or sad when they aren’t, and seeming not to understand when people have had enough.

Does not actively pursue friendships, however has many children interested in being his friend. Will often say he doesn’t want to go out and play with friends, but sometimes will. If forced to go out and play does not give too much resistance. Tends to argue a lot with other children and want things to be done a certain way. Has said he wants to live alone when he’s older as he doesn’t want to have to worry about another person. Likes to be alone when at parties or gatherings, but will join in with games if asked. Can sit in a large group if they are still, but gets anxious when there is a lot of noise and moving about.
- Some positives in there to ameliorate the parts immediately before, but obviously mostly not good socially when combined in a person who is not for some reason in a socially advantageous position.




While his sensory issues are not a lack of social skills, they will bring him social challenges that most people do not have to face. The other kids will find him odd, and this can lead to him being treated poorly.

I do not mean to insult your child, please remember that apart from the sensory issues these are things that your son and I have in common, and which I have personally found to be disadvantageous. I find it distressing that you would state that a child with these characteristics has above average social skills. However you define social skills and however they have been measured, social interaction is something that you need to be concerned about in your son as though he had a lack of what might perhaps be more loosely termed as social skills, awareness, attitude etc. Whether he's on the spectrum or not, these things have challenged me considerably.

Again, no insult intended, I hope that you will find this information good food for thought, if not actually useful in application.
 
The above average social skills is what was determined by the team who did his autism assessment. I myself have always felt he had significant social issues.

My children attend an integrated special needs school. They mix special needs children with mainstream children, with the high needs children in their own attached facility, but still included in events. Naturally, inclusion is a big focus at our school. Although my son was bullied quite a bit in years 1-3, these attitudes were dealt with and he is "tolerated" now.

Although my son is included here, I think it will be very different once he attends high school where children are far less tolerant.
I find it distressing that you would state that a child with these characteristics has above average social skills.
 
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