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For NT ladies (preferably with AS/ASD guy)
- Thread starter Chance
- Start date
Sabrina
Gentle & brave earthling
I downloaded a sample of the book Keigan recommend (How to be the strong man a woman wants).
The 'decision' part is very important. I think the lack of decision-making is just a consequence of something else, and more important: the lack of caring about the relationship, and wanting to sabotage it (passive aggressiveness).
A conversation between my husband (we are in the middle of a separation, but he still lives with me) and I happened this weekend, (the only 'conversation' that we had) very similar to the one Chance had.
Since I was aware I had been playing music, more or less loud, all weekend, while he was using his headphones, I tell him:
- Are you going to put music while we eat?
He answered,
- Am I allowed to?
I look at him, and tell him, 'never mind I'll put something' and leave the living room.
In the past I would have let him press my buttons, I would have answered, 'what kind of question is that? If I didn't want you to put music on , I wouldn't have asked? Etc, but, since I knew he was just picking up a fight, I left it at it.
The lack of decision-making is just a way to sabotage the relationship, putting the responsibility of such decision-making in the woman. Because, unfortunately, a lot of men, instead of doing the right thing, they do what makes them look good or what produces less pain.
For example, saying "If I leave, I'll be seen like a jerk". My husband thinks like that too. The result? Since the man doesn't do the right thing, because he's concerned of how he will be "seen", the woman ends up being the strong one, because she doesn't care of what other people think of her. In other words, the woman ends up taking the responsibility of tough decisions, which brings the consequence of becoming strong.
In this case, the man is concerned about himself, and how he will be seen, and that's why he doesn't make the tough decisions. While the woman, in absence of that, has to take the decisions for herself and her kids, because the man can't see past the thought of how he will be judged.
Therefore, I think the lack of decision making has one cause: the man cares more about himself, than about his partner or family. If he cared, he would be able to decide easily. But, since he is concerned of what other people might think of him, or mainly in his own well-being, he doesn't.
In other words: If he makes decisions, he shows he cares. But, in order to make tough decisions, you have to be strong enough to do the right thing and not be concerned about how other people perceive you, or how that could affect your well-being (like loosing material things or money).
So, so far, the hypothesis is confirmed (that women want a strong man).
The 'decision' part is very important. I think the lack of decision-making is just a consequence of something else, and more important: the lack of caring about the relationship, and wanting to sabotage it (passive aggressiveness).
A conversation between my husband (we are in the middle of a separation, but he still lives with me) and I happened this weekend, (the only 'conversation' that we had) very similar to the one Chance had.
Since I was aware I had been playing music, more or less loud, all weekend, while he was using his headphones, I tell him:
- Are you going to put music while we eat?
He answered,
- Am I allowed to?
I look at him, and tell him, 'never mind I'll put something' and leave the living room.
In the past I would have let him press my buttons, I would have answered, 'what kind of question is that? If I didn't want you to put music on , I wouldn't have asked? Etc, but, since I knew he was just picking up a fight, I left it at it.
The lack of decision-making is just a way to sabotage the relationship, putting the responsibility of such decision-making in the woman. Because, unfortunately, a lot of men, instead of doing the right thing, they do what makes them look good or what produces less pain.
For example, saying "If I leave, I'll be seen like a jerk". My husband thinks like that too. The result? Since the man doesn't do the right thing, because he's concerned of how he will be "seen", the woman ends up being the strong one, because she doesn't care of what other people think of her. In other words, the woman ends up taking the responsibility of tough decisions, which brings the consequence of becoming strong.
In this case, the man is concerned about himself, and how he will be seen, and that's why he doesn't make the tough decisions. While the woman, in absence of that, has to take the decisions for herself and her kids, because the man can't see past the thought of how he will be judged.
Therefore, I think the lack of decision making has one cause: the man cares more about himself, than about his partner or family. If he cared, he would be able to decide easily. But, since he is concerned of what other people might think of him, or mainly in his own well-being, he doesn't.
In other words: If he makes decisions, he shows he cares. But, in order to make tough decisions, you have to be strong enough to do the right thing and not be concerned about how other people perceive you, or how that could affect your well-being (like loosing material things or money).
So, so far, the hypothesis is confirmed (that women want a strong man).
He is 20, just have 1
Hi Chance, I'm an NT woman who has a dear friend who I think is ASD. He dropped contact with me for 2 weeks after texting almost daily. I thought he didn't want to maintain contact anymore but when he came back he explained he has no sense of time and didn't realize it had been so long. I understood and no longer personalize stuff with him because I feel secure that he does care a lot about me. Also I do like his differences- we live in different countries so don't know if he has meltdowns but if we were together I would leave him alone to calm down and not take it personally. Hardest for me to deal with would be if I felt he was in pain but I could not hug him and tell him I love you.
Frankly Chance s
Frankly Chance she sounds like a nightmare who is emotionally abusing you. What are you getting out of this relationship?
Good point. The prognosis for this relationship doesn't look to optimistic. Perhaps it's time for him to at least begin to plot an "exit strategy" as a primary backup plan if he presently considers the relationship unsalvageable.
To have options if and when you need them.
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Chance, when I posted my first response I hadn't seen everyone elses responses or your posts about getting a separation. I think you have made a very wise decision and hope you will not feel guilty for removing yourself from a very abusive relationship. You sound like a very caring person who has a lot to give someone. Hopefully you will find someone in the future who will appreciate you for who you are and not take advantage of you.
I understand.
Based on everything I've seen you write on these forums, I actually can't imagine you trying to turn anybody against anybody else.....let alone turning people you love against each other.
I'm glad your wife was (and I am guessing still is) a good mom to your son. I hope he does not feel a need to take sides, and can maintain good relationships with both of you without the need for you to lie to him and take all the blame on yourself.
I hope you do not actually think that you became a sucky husband...it sounds like you stayed basically the same husband, trying your best to change yourself to suit your wife and to make things work.
Other women might have considered you a great husband, difficulties and all, so please don't let your wife's negative opinion of you take the place of objective facts or let yourself believe her opinion would reflect any woman's opinion....
And even though this may not help ease the pain of not being able to become everything your wife wanted/needed (am I understanding your feelings correctly here? If I'm way off in my understanding, I welcome correction but will not be offended if you just ignore me instead....this stuff is personal and none of my business, I just want to show respect for your experience and make it clear that I know I may be getting things wrong) please try to believe me when I say that not being able to provide certain things she wants or needs in a relationship doesn't make you a "not good enough" person or even a "not good enough" husband -- to me, not being a good match for someone (whatever the reasons, whatever the ways) is not the same as not being a good spouse, period.
Yes, you have diagnosable issues that cause you difficulties but these things do not define and cannot diminish your personhood even if they have a significant impact on your life and even if you consider them a significant part of who you are. In the case of persons, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts,..... A person is so much more than their difficulties -- they do not diminish you or make you less valuable.
I'm happy to offer support when I can, and even happier if any of that support actually helps
I will be wishing you the best going forward, hoping that things work out such that everyone can be happy again.
Sabrina, I usually agree with most everything you say, as you have lots of insight and wisdom, but I have a different perspective for you and others to consider, too.
I feel strength can be seen in any number of ways, and Chance was showing strength by putting up with all that abuse, without likely much complaint too hardly all those years. He likely kept much of that pain inside, and tried to be strong then by not running away. Most guys are like that. In his specific case, had he been weaker then, and put himself first, instead of her, he would not have had to suffer all those years with her as he would have left immediately. In ways, he sacrificed himself I feel, to avoid worse confrontation.
But, I feel he is showing strength too now by saying it's time to separate, as this shows his self-esteem has not been totally wiped away by her, whatever faults or condition she likely has. He has persevered, and perhaps basically said 'Enough is enough, I should not be treated this away," and so by having courage and devising a plan to act, that important decision is showing strength, and I wish more abused persons had that strength. He has an absolute right to put himself first now, as he was putting himself second all those years, and how great was that?
In the case with Chance, I feel he was not sabotaging the relationship because of any lack of decisions from him, from everything I read. That seems like blaming the victim. Most victims of abuse start not making decisions because of lower self worth from being criticized, abused or yelled at. Although it is true many that are weaker can be preyed on, too, and enable the abuser, many more others could be initially strong, but then made to be weaker from abuse. Regardless, we cannot keep hiding abuses against men, and blaming them, as in the end that harms women. Think about it.
And I could argue that Chance's wife was far from being strong, and she did not seem to want Chance to make many decisions from what I understand. Strength is not emotionally and sexually abusing someone, and likely physically too, and critiquing someone when they do not get their way, for small and big things. Those with spoiled personalities since youth often are weak persons who create toxic relationships, in all ways. His wife needs to make decisions because of her personality where she needs all her needs met in her precise ways, and it seems she does not want Chance to make decisions, and as when he said he wanted to transfer she got very upset, and she got upset when he was doing things his ways. So, she cannot then cry and get upset, if he feared being assertive and making other decisions, as he was making decisions but yelled at or worse over that.
Chance was never spoiled; he grew up in a very violent home and survived. It is often the lenient parents that create spoiled children. The fact Chance is even working is amazing from his two violent environments, past and present. I was never able to work full time outside of home despite my education, but I was strong enough not to care what society felt about that.. My strength comes in many other ways, that only my amazing wife and great kids can totally see. So, I feel his wife is not a victim for him not making certain earlier decisions, as it looks like she needs to be in control, and does not want Chance to be in control. Likely had he made certain decisions himself then though, more abuse would have occurred.
The concern I have about societal attitude is: since when must all men act a certain way? This is a free country where everyone should be themselves. For instance, if women are entitled to get a career, stay at home if finances allow, not make decisions, make all the household decisions, act strong, act weak, be mean, be kind, without much complaint or acceptance, or if this is in society seen as ok, must a guy always get a job, stay with a wife until she wants to leave, be confident, be assertive, and these days, show romance, too?
"If he shows decisions, he shows he cares?" I disagree. If he makes decisions, it may show confidence, assertiveness and a desire to lead, but that does not show care. Care would be if the guy wanted to talk to the wife, and get her opinion and be open minded to that. It takes a strong and kind man to treat others who are different as them as equals, and to want them to lead at times, too, like I do with my wife, and with persons of different background, too. I want to learn and respect their beliefs. Yes, there will be many times I make decisions, too, but her as well. It would show strength on anyone's part to listen, and look at other points of view. Chance was showing care by trying to make her happy, not himself!
Do I think Chance was perfect in his relationship, and his wife 100% wrong. No. Do, I think his wife may have a good side, and I am not talking about looks, as that means little to me. Yes, she probably does have some good. But, it does not take a rocket scientist to see this is not a good fit for Chance. It might be a good fit for her, as she gets to have her control needs fulfilled to the best of Chances ability, but it certainly is not a good fit for Chance, as he certainly feels triggered by critiques, abuses and controlling behavior, and recoils from such. And so I hope he finally puts himself first, though she should be happier too, if she supposedly was so miserable.
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Sometimes a statement like, "If I leave, I'll be seen like a jerk" refers only to how the man thinks his actions will be perceived by his partner, and is not a statement about public perceptions....it may refer to his wife feeling hurt, and not just garden-variety hurt, but extra-deeply hurt because of the perception that his actions are specifically designed to hurt her rather than being a desperate attempt to end a terrible situation.
I do not think it is an easy thing to decide what's best for the other person....you can only know for sure what's best for yourself. You can't know if your partner will agree that it's "the right thing" to break up -- you can't even know if it's the right thing for them beyond reasoning that it's generally better for people to be with those who are there because they truly want to be, rather than because they feel obligated or stuck or are afraid to hurt their partner.
It takes strength to leave, yes, but it takes a hell of a lot of strength to stay as well; The more dysfunctional the relationship, the more strength is required to stay -- especially when the person who is choosing to stay is being abused. It may be a different kind of strength, but in my eyes it is strength nonetheless.
Also, I am not sure I would classify it as "weak" or "doing the wrong thing" for anyone, male or female, to be afraid of the consequences of how others perceive them in a separation/divorce....if the people in your life think you were a jerk who did something wrong by leaving, and/or that any problems in your relationship with your spouse/partner were your fault, there can be serious consequences.....
People can lose all of their friends, be alienated from their family, lose all of their sources of emotional and practical support -- their entire social support system.
They can, depending on where they work, lose their jobs (maybe they work for an organization that is faith-based, or their employer is highly religious or has traditional and conservative views on divorce and the whole "family values" thing).
How a person acted leading up to a legal separation or divorce can be presented as evidence in legal proceedings, and a person can be penalized financially/materially when it comes to dividing up assets and determining stuff like alimony. People can lose access to their children if the court ends up convinced that are/were a jerk either in the relationship before it ended or in their reasons for leaving and ending it. For men in relationships with women who are being abusive to their children, the issue of custody can become extremely complicated because courts are often biased in favor of moms (there are reasons, some of them very good reasons and some of them sad and stupid...it's a combination of social realities and social myths) when it comes to custody and visitation rights, and unless medical/mental health professionals or police or social services have become involved and there is already documentation of abuse of the children by their mother the man risks effectively abandoning his children in an unsafe environment versus staying in the relationship and having some ability to protect them -- it is hardly selfish for a man to be afraid he will be perceived as a jerk in those circumstances, since being perceived as a jerk might render him completely unable to support and protect his children......
So basically, I guess I'm saying that how a person is perceived when breaking up with their partner is not necessarily a frivolous or selfish consideration. It can be important, and sometimes it is important for reasons that are not selfish at all.
I also think it is impossible to really know the depths and nature of another person's feelings..... so I seek not to judge others. If someone doesn't leave a relationship that they and everyone else can see is not good for them, I will not assume they lack strength. If they say they do not have the strength to leave, I will not fault them for it nor elevate the other partner (who did find the strength to leave) above them.....I assume there are reasons for them not leaving and I accept that I may never know or be able to guess what they are, but I give them the benefit of the doubt until/unless they prove they didn't deserve the benefit of the doubt.
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Sabrina
Gentle & brave earthling
I think I did not communicate what I wanted in the right way.
Every person has a different situation, (it doesn't matter if it's NT, AS, woman, man, old or young), and some people show strength in different ways, and others don't, as you explained in your post. You are right: not all men should act in a certain way (or women).
I made a mistake with that
generalization.
I was talking about me, and my specific case, on this specific moment of my life. What I wrote in that post is what I think for me, and it doesn't extrapolate to everybody.
I think I am a strong person. But for reasons beyond my will, I stayed in a bad marriage for too long. I still don't know if what I did was right or wrong. I just didn't have any other option.
If someone understands the huge quandary of ending a marriage it's me: I asked my husband to separate for the first time in 2011, then in 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016 and 2017 (plus two other times that I didn't even bother to ask for a separation because it would have been impossible). Every time we gave ourselves a chance, and there was a good period, followed by a big crisis, then good period, a bigger crisis than before, and on and on, spiraling until this year when I decided to draw the line. It took me eight years to draw that line.
I suffered a lot. I know Chance is suffering a lot.
Sometimes we don't have good options and we end up deciding for the 'least bad' option, among several bad ones. But those experiences, if we are open, make us grow, and then, maybe, we become stronger, weaker or we stay the same. Sometimes it doesn't depend on us (to become stronger, weaker or stay the same) and it doesn't increase nor devalues anyone's worth. We all try to do our best in challenging situations.
@Dadwith2Autisticsons
Whilst I agree with a lot of what you say, I do also think a lot of women with strong personalities really do want men to show what they perceive to be strength. These women will seek to hold the power in the relationship because that's part of their personality, but they will secretly (or not so secretly) despise their partner for letting them get away with it. They might possibly even despise themselves for behaving that way but are locked into the power struggle and don't know any other way to behave.
I'm not saying this is what is happening in Chances relationship, but it could be.
If that is the case, I wouldn't be surprised if she starts behaving very differently when he finally walks away........ because she thought he never would.
However if he then decides to stay because she's more like the person he first met.......she will eventually revert to her previous behaviour. Because at the end of the day.....that's who she is.
Humans are very complicated creatures
Whilst I agree with a lot of what you say, I do also think a lot of women with strong personalities really do want men to show what they perceive to be strength. These women will seek to hold the power in the relationship because that's part of their personality, but they will secretly (or not so secretly) despise their partner for letting them get away with it. They might possibly even despise themselves for behaving that way but are locked into the power struggle and don't know any other way to behave.
I'm not saying this is what is happening in Chances relationship, but it could be.
If that is the case, I wouldn't be surprised if she starts behaving very differently when he finally walks away........ because she thought he never would.
However if he then decides to stay because she's more like the person he first met.......she will eventually revert to her previous behaviour. Because at the end of the day.....that's who she is.
Humans are very complicated creatures
Ok Sabrina. I understand now, that you were referring a lot in your post to your specific situation, as I feel regardless of gender strength, love and care should be seen in many different ways, and not based on just the ability of one to make decisions and lead. So sorry you suffered much too. I wish there was an easy answer. In general, I am wishing all the ones in relationships that are harmed severely in any way, in absense of resolution, or if that other refuses to admit wrong and seek counseling, to move on as best and quickly as possible, and for the sake of the children too, who will be so messed up as well seeing violence or control of any sort.
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Sabrina
Gentle & brave earthling
Yes, thank you for stating it clearly and better.
@Dadwith2Autisticsons
Whilst I agree with a lot of what you say, I do also think a lot of women with strong personalities really do want men to show what they perceive to be strength. These women will seek to hold the power in the relationship because that's part of their personality, but they will secretly (or not so secretly) despise their partner for letting them get away with it. They might possibly even despise themselves for behaving that way but are locked into the power struggle and don't know any other way to behave.
I'm not saying this is what is happening in Chances relationship, but it could be.
If that is the case, I wouldn't be surprised if she starts behaving very differently when he finally walks away........ because she thought he never would.
However if he then decides to stay because she's more like the person he first met.......she will eventually revert to her previous behaviour. Because at the end of the day.....that's who she is.
Humans are very complicated creatures
I agree with a lot of what you said, too. It depends on what one considers a "strong personality" though. Her acting childlike to him in those ways maybe shows strength to her, but not necessarily to him. To me as a man it shows me a weak personality, her doing things that way, and it is not something to emulate, nor would it motivate me to be "strong".
I would want to be my best for a person I felt comfortable with and respected on important levels. I would feel vulnerable and give less effort, and not want to get too close to someone because of all those danger signs I saw. If she wants him to show real strength, do it in ways he could perhaps understand better, like communicating and expressing to him in a respectful, loving and logical way of what she wants and needs. Do not resort to certain behaviors.
I realize though men and women express and communicate differently, much less partners with different conditions. That is what makes things hard. Both are not on the same page, and I can understand why. Both think and feel differently, and both have vastly different personalities, needs and triggers. What she wants or can give does not seem to be what he wants and can give, and vice versa. I just know as a very shy guy, I will never open or lead to critical or abusive persons, but only to persons I trust or could respect: kind persons or constructively helpful persons, or persons less apt to judge.
That is why I did not talk much to my parents, sister, acquaintances, or any persons I felt were too judgemental, or who I did not know yet. I instinctively give less effort to persons who I know will not admit wrong, be reasonable, relate in some important way, or want to give that same effort back. If Chance's wife wants him to change, now that they are married, that is not his problem. She knew how he was shyer prior to marriage. Only under right circumstances could or would such a person open up and lead, if even able.
I agree too, if he tries to separate, she may temporarily change, if not resort to strong emotion, playing victim, or threats, but very likely revert back to herself anyway if the former happened. That is how the story usually goes. I am sorry about the pessimism, but I cannot get over certain horrible things she has done, and how she says and acts like she is not wrong and when Chance suggested or said she would not be receptive to getting help for the marriage and any diagnostics or counseling. It takes two to take a marriage work, not one. Chance has admitted imperfection, but I have yet to see her do the same.
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I want to be very clear in that I am in no way excusing her behavior. It's abuse.... plain and simple. When I said 'strong' personality, maybe I should have said dominant.
I can see how a young spoiled girl, who is also physically very attractive and used to getting her own way, could fall for a young, sweet, sensitive guy who was completely enamored with her. She probably didn't have a lot of relationships under her belt either so wasn't even sure what qualities she needed in a man in the long term.
Fast forward 20+ years and you have a very toxic, probably codependent couple who just don't know how to relate to each other and probably never have. She thought she could " fix" him and she's furious because he won't be "fixed". But I would bet money that she doesn't even like herself very much for the way she treats him but can't understand why he let's her get away with it (or even why she does it). What you now have is two very hurt, disillusioned and unhappy people ( and in her case angry) who are totally unsuited to each other.
That's my impression anyway. But enough armchair psychology for one day!
I'm busy mentally preparing myself for round two with my GP this afternoon!
You can be my counselor any day... thank you : )
Maybe I should consider a new career?
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