Excessive teasing advice gratefully received.

[Sky123]

Hi
Thanks for reading. My ds (12) is currently going through diagnosis for aspergers. He is teasing a lot at home, name calling and hitting siblings (not usually hard). This isn't happening when he is angry just in general (worse when we are out and about of if he have visitors). He has a few friendship issues at school and I suspect a similar thing is happening. Just wondering if anyone has any suggestions of how I can support him to make better choices with this? Thank you.

 

[Ylva]

Even so, he is bullying his siblings. Have you told him that it makes them sad?

 

[Sky123]

Thanks you for your reply. Yes he knows as they cry sometimes. He just seems to think because he wouldn't be upset if they did it to him they shouldn't be upset or he says he doesn't care (I'm not sure if he does really as he does get on well with them other than this). He knows it's affecting everyone and he knows it is unacceptable. It usually starts as low grade making noises/imitating them,maybe the odd poke but can soon escalate into name calling. He seems to mostly do it if for example if there is something different. Not sure of it is over excitement/anxiety. Trying to deal with it in a firm way but at the same time not to escalate things. Thanks

 

[Sky123]

He was bullied at primary and had school refusal. He has started a new school now and he seems to think he has to act a bit tougher. He has remarked that he thinks people think he is a wimp and feels people goad him sometimes so I don't think his self esteem is the best.

 

[May Black]

One of our pupils became increasingly distressed towards the end of her 9th grade, since she was about to change schools. She stopped talking to the staff almost all together and it became increasingly difficult to get her to do school work. Sometimes she acted out and could be rather violent. Her diagnoses was somewhat different though.

Anyway, what I think might be happening is your son being overly stressed over changing schools and acting out on it. Since being teased and beaten is probably partly what he's afraid of happening, he's letting his fear out the one way he knows how. If you feel like you cannot handle the situation, I'd strongly recommend contacting a specialist. Try asking him why he does it, even though he probably won't be able to tell you, it might start a process of thought. Have you talked to the school?

 

[Sky123]

Thanks for your reply Yes I agree. Although this school is a lot better and he is enjoying it more than the other one I think it is a massive massive change for him. So although less stressful in one way it is more stressful in another way,esp the first year. When he does it he doesn't do it in anger and doesn't get angry by the end of it. If the others cry they do it out of frustration in that it is persistent,rather than they are deeply upset by it. It is more of an annoying behaviour than anything else. I have spoken to the school about it and it is partly what helped in getting an asd assessment. They have been helpful. I have also spoken to a local asd organisation. Most of the advice centers around making sure he knows it is unacceptable and distracting him which is fine but was just wondering if there was any other ideas. I appreciate what you are saying about reducing stress. Maybe something for me to concentrate on more rather than concentrating on the specific behaviour? Thanks

 

[Ylva]

There is a chance he is trying in some misguided way to "toughen them up", in case they have to go through something similar at some point.

 

[May Black]

Thanks for your reply Yes I agree. Although this school is a lot better and he is enjoying it more than the other one I think it is a massive massive change for him. So although less stressful in one way it is more stressful in another way,esp the first year. When he does it he doesn't do it in anger and doesn't get angry by the end of it. If the others cry they do it out of frustration in that it is persistent,rather than they are deeply upset by it. It is more of an annoying behaviour than anything else. I have spoken to the school about it and it is partly what helped in getting an asd assessment. They have been helpful. I have also spoken to a local asd organisation. Most of the advice centers around making sure he knows it is unacceptable and distracting him which is fine but was just wondering if there was any other ideas. I appreciate what you are saying about reducing stress. Maybe something for me to concentrate on more rather than concentrating on the specific behaviour? Thanks

I'm glad you found it helpful.
I'd definitely say focusing on reducing stress is a better approach in any situation. Even if you'd manage to eliminate the behavior, if the stress remains, he'll start acting out in a different way. Try talking to him about school maybe. What's his normal interaction with his siblings?

There is a chance he is trying in some misguided way to "toughen them up", in case they have to go through something similar at some point.

This is very interesting.

 

[Sky123]

Thank you (sorry don't know how to put in quotes what you said yet) but it is really interesting Ylva but he has said that too me directly!!!!!Never really connected it (although sounds obvious and you picked up on it). He has actually said "mum do you want them to be a wimp in school? they will just get picked on". He has said it several times and he has also commented that I have tried to make him a wimp by telling him not to retaliate in primary and just tell them teacher. In the end tbh he did retaliate and the bullying stopped. Not the way it should work but....
Thanks May too. Never really thought some other behaviour might take it's place but that makes sense. At primary he was extremely shy and anxious. Now there has been an improvement in that he is more confident and trying new things so perhaps this has replaced previous anxiety behaviour that he showed. Hmmm. Lots to think about.
His relationship is good with siblings. He is very caring in certain circumstances. I would say it is like "standard" sibling teasing (if that makes sense I have siblings and we used to do the same) just excessive and frequent in certain circumstances. Thanks for your comments. So great to have other people's input. Sometimes I think when you are in a situation it is hard to look at it objectively.

 

[Sky123]

Just to add that sometimes I think he doesn't realise he has gone too far with teasing then when he does he tries to brazen it out because he is embarrassed maybe. There was certainly one incident in school that he thought was banter and thought the other boy didnt mind and the other boy ended up telling the teacher and ds was genuinely shocked that he wasn't happy (he hadn't directly told ds to stop). Maybe another factor to consider.

 

[May Black]

Just to add that sometimes I think he doesn't realise he has gone too far with teasing then when he does he tries to brazen it out because he is embarrassed maybe. There was certainly one incident in school that he thought was banter and thought the other boy didnt mind and the other boy ended up telling the teacher and ds was genuinely shocked that he wasn't happy (he hadn't directly told ds to stop). Maybe another factor to consider.

I know of a case where a boy was sentenced to full time assistance for following a girl in the forest and assaulting her sexually. He didn't understand she didn't want to, because she kept saying help instead of no.

You might definitely have a point there.

 

[icesyckel]

I had similar problems with my siblings as a child. My parents didn't know I had ASD at the time, and it was a real problem.

Basically, they handled me the same way as they would any other child: I was punished for hitting, and more so when I was the perceived instigator. In retrospect, that wasn't always fair, but in most cases it was appropriate and in most cases it worked.

Why wasn't it always fair? Had my parents known more about my condition, then they'd have known I had a unique set of "triggers" for violence. My sisters would constantly touch my head to tease me, which I hated. I generally never wanted them to touch me. They weren't often violent with the touching (though sometimes they were), and no matter how often my parents disciplined me, I was never going to tolerate unwanted physical contact from my siblings. Also, there were situations with loud screaming and noises - one sister in particular would talk too loudly and the other screamed in high pitches. This caused me pain, and they may as well have been hitting me first. My parents didn't know this either.

Conversely, when I had been at fault, though, I accepted the punishment as just and learned from it. When you punish a child, however, for something that he did not instigate or does not understand, then the child will learn nothing from the punishment.

The solution? Make sure your child knows the reason for the punishment, and make sure you are not punishing him for things that are not his fault or over-punishing him and under-punishing others because you mistakenly believe he is the instigator. That can be challenging when you don't observe what happened.

Also, as I presume you are NT, you may need to really educate yourself about what it is like to be your son before you will be able to appreciate how things affect him differently. When I was a kid, I'd have preferred my sisters hit me rather than talk loudly or scream, which they frequently did. My early childhood was torture when my parents weren't around because my sisters took advantage of my parents' ignorance to paint me in a bad light. As the years past, my parents eventually caught on to the truth.

I don't know if any of this applies, but I hope it helps.

 

[Sky123]

Thanks Icesyckle. Wow thanks so much for taking the time to reply. This has been really useful to me. He is sensitive to noise in the way you describe and I certainly notice parallels with what you have said about your whole experience. It's great to hear it first hand. I am very careful about not blaming him all the time because I do try to give him the benefit of the doubt but thank you for the reminder because I think it would be easy to jump in too quickly sometimes. If I think the siblings are over reacting to something I also challenge that. I don't want his self esteem to suffer. It is a balancing act. Sometimes he says they really annoy him by something they do like silly dancing or a face they pull (silly faces,whether aimed at him or not seem to wind him up). Other times it can just seem to come out of the blue like waiting in a shop,airport etc he will lean over to one sister and start teasing (ie flicking something close to her face or poking her but laughing). This can be even if it is a wait of a few minutes so it's not as if he is bored. Wonder if the noise in that environment is a factor in that? Something else to think about. I'm not really sure if I am NT or not after reading more into asd .also don't want anyone to think he is always like this. He is a lovely lovely boy just a bit of a problem with this at the moment. if you don't mind me asking what questions do you think I should ask him to find out more? Other than "why do you do it?" Maybe there is a better question I can be asking. Many thanks

 

[Ylva]

"Why" is a bit abstract. Maybe rephrase as "what makes you do x?" or something like that? ("It" is also, if not abstract, unspecific. Like, "do you mean the hitting or the teasing or the breathing or the walking away?" Potentially frustrating for someone who is already struggling to keep his calm.)

 

[Sky123]

Thanks. I think I will have a good think about how to be more specific with my questions. I'm also just thinking about accepting his answer as it is rather than putting my own spin on it. For instance when he said "you don't want them to be a wimp do you?" (As mentioned further up the thread), I probably need to listen to the answer more, instead of sometimes thinking he is giving a silly answer. It might be an answer that makes perfect sense to him but because I think differently I am discounting it as a serious answer, if that makes sense perhaps I need to take things at face value more than trying to analyse them.

 

[May Black]

This is really hard, as Ylva said, be as specific as you can.
If you poke your sister in the eye, she doesn't like it. Do you understand that?
He might answer no, and it might be true.
Divide his actions into as many specific questions as you can. I'd say yes and no answers might be easier to handle.
How much can you actually reason with your son? I don't have children.

 

[May Black]

Thanks. I think I will have a good think about how to be more specific with my questions. I'm also just thinking about accepting his answer as it is rather than putting my own spin on it. For instance when he said "you don't want them to be a wimp do you?" (As mentioned further up the thread), I probably need to listen to the answer more, instead of sometimes thinking he is giving a silly answer. It might be an answer that makes perfect sense to him but because I think differently I am discounting it as a serious answer, if that makes sense perhaps I need to take things at face value more than trying to analyse them.

It makes perfect sense actually. Good luck.

 

[May Black]

Actually, what I'd do first would be to make sure he knows what I'm talking about. Sometimes you poke your sister in the eye, right. She doesn't like it. There is a good chance he will response in some way. At least a bigger kid would.

 

[icesyckel]

Thanks Icesyckle. Wow thanks so much for taking the time to reply. This has been really useful to me. He is sensitive to noise in the way you describe and I certainly notice parallels with what you have said about your whole experience. It's great to hear it first hand. I am very careful about not blaming him all the time because I do try to give him the benefit of the doubt but thank you for the reminder because I think it would be easy to jump in too quickly sometimes. If I think the siblings are over reacting to something I also challenge that. I don't want his self esteem to suffer. It is a balancing act. Sometimes he says they really annoy him by something they do like silly dancing or a face they pull (silly faces,whether aimed at him or not seem to wind him up). Other times it can just seem to come out of the blue like waiting in a shop,airport etc he will lean over to one sister and start teasing (ie flicking something close to her face or poking her but laughing). This can be even if it is a wait of a few minutes so it's not as if he is bored. Wonder if the noise in that environment is a factor in that? Something else to think about. I'm not really sure if I am NT or not after reading more into asd .also don't want anyone to think he is always like this. He is a lovely lovely boy just a bit of a problem with this at the moment. if you don't mind me asking what questions do you think I should ask him to find out more? Other than "why do you do it?" Maybe there is a better question I can be asking. Many thanks

Glad to help. However, don't mistake me - sometimes I was a little **** as a kid and needed to be punished too. Every kid is going to misbehave at times, and correction is necessary. The key is, as others have pointed out, to be specific, investigate, and not just accept the siblings' accusations at face value regarding events you didn't see. If the child is at fault, then punish him reasonably, commensurate with the offense. However, he does have special needs that require patience, consideration, and education. He needs to know he did something wrong and what it was and why it was wrong to benefit from correction.

Most aspies struggle with rules and authorities that seem arbitrary. If you punish him for something and he does not understand he is wrong, he will likely just assume you've decided to persecute him like Cinderella's stepmom. At thAt point he will stop looking for lessons in the punishments you dole out.

 

[Sky123]

Thanks May. I can reason with him and he does listen but I have learnt that you can't really enter into a big conversation right in the midst of an incident you need to talk about it afterwards. Will probably help a lot if I am more specific.
Thanks Icesyckle. That's useful insight. Sometimes he is sorry he has done it and sometimes not as he feels it is justified. I guess the key is also separating out the different reasons it might happen and taking his perspective then taking it from there. I feel that it's a combination of different reasons (as we have talked about). Hmmmm