Evolution of Asperger, Bipolar people and psychopaths

[Mercy One]

Even more simple: Modern humans use the emotional mechanism that was originally developed to regulate the behavior of children versus adults to regulate the behavior of people in hierarchies.

 

[Mercy One]

The resistance of Asperger's to being turned back into emotional toddlers as adults (loosing their sense of justice, starting to lie to gain something etc.) might be connected to the longer time their brain needs to mature. Maybe they as usually try to just build something more solid and trustworthy than the normal person when building their emotions?

Their better memory makes them more immune to brainwashing too. Being immune to brainwashing is a major disadvantage in a hierarchic society. You can not forget who got hurt to build that hierarchy.

By the way: I have to correct something about bipolar people in the manic phase. I think they don't behave like women, they behave like a toddler too. It is just a toddler that is a little bit more mature than the narcissist toddler. The narcissistic toddler has not yet learned what love is so he mistakes attention for love. He hence wants more and more attention and does everything to get it, including toxic stuff.

The manic toddler is emotionally maybe a year older (?) and he or she has hence already learned to love. He than wants more and more love when going into the manic toddler state. Because love can not be attained by toxic means they are more peaceful but still exhausting to their surrounding.

I start to understand why I mistook dressing for business events as carnival

 

[Streetwise]

The resistance of Asperger's to being turned back into emotional toddlers as adults (loosing their sense of justice, starting to lie to gain something etc.) might be connected to the longer time their brain needs to mature. Maybe they as usually try to just build something more solid and trustworthy than the normal person when building their emotions?

Their better memory makes them more immune to brainwashing too. Being immune to brainwashing is a major disadvantage in a hierarchic society. You can not forget who got hurt to build that hierarchy.

By the way: I have to correct something about bipolar people in the manic phase. I think they don't behave like women, they behave like a toddler too. It is just a toddler that is a little bit more mature than the narcissist toddler. The narcissistic toddler has not yet learned what love is so he mistakes attention for love. He hence wants more and more attention and does everything to get it, including toxic stuff.

The manic toddler is emotionally maybe a year older (?) and he or she has hence already learned to love. He than wants more and more love when going into the manic toddler state. Because love can not be attained by toxic means they are more peaceful but still exhausting to their surrounding.

I start to understand why I mistook dressing for business events as carnival

Never thought people with bpd were like toddlers more like inventors feverishly working

 

[Mercy One]

Never thought people with bpd were like toddlers more like inventors feverishly working

Yes but to be an inventor you as well have to be an explorer, and to be creative a certain degree of chaos and error can be helpful. Playing is a good way to explore. So they are sort of toddlers playing their way through science and technics. And toddlers can as well be very very enduring when they have fun. they don't want to stop. I can't stop my brain either.

 

[Au Naturel]

I don't think much has changed since the paleolithic era and I doubt that a whole lot has changed since the evolution of the Homo genus. The traits we inherited are the traits we have and to fight them is to swim upstream. The real trick is to harness them in a way that makes sense in a technological world.

Harmful traits can persist despite evolutionary pressures if a reduced expression of them is an advantage in survival, aka balanced polymorphism. One example of this is sickle cell anemia. Having one such gene is good in malaria-prone areas while having 2 is very painful - if not fatal. Malaria was such a killer that losing a few of your children was an acceptable trade-off

I have a sneaky feeling that autism is this way as well, only it comes in many gradations. A teensy bit of it is good for you but more than that is a problem. The autistic guy in the tribe is probably the one who created a calendar or figured out how to make a fire on demand or devised stellar navigation. That tribe survived better and carried the genes on. OTOH, a tribe full of autistic people would die quickly.

Among humans, what makes you an alpha is your ability to convince others to let you think for them. That's what a leader does. It is a social skill that takes traits that others look for and assembles them into an attractive package. Sometimes it comes instinctively and sometimes it is calculated. Social skills are so important that an utter incompetent in a subject area can convince people to make them a leader because they know the exact buttons to push.

It makes evolutionary sense for people to allow others who are brighter, sharper, or more clever than they are to make decisions while they work at various levels of minionhood. It is why leaders have followers. Probably a fair majority of people want to be led and actively seek out a leader. But humans are adaptable and physical traits have become less important and psychology and expertise are more important.

The differentiation between adult and child - beyond their reproductive capability - is a modern invention. Our primary and secondary sexual signals are how early humans would have differentiated adults and children. "Adults are this and children are that" is a cultural thing. The definition changes depending on who and where.

"Wolves have a higher intelligence than dogs"

I would not care to bet large sums of money on that. There are many breeds with wildly different traits. Dogs have been bred to be bigger, to be faster, to have sharper senses, and to be smarter in ways that far exceed the original stock. What we have done is to mellow out their aggressive natures and change their attitudes towards humans.

The communication of a dog is just as sincere as a wolf's is. They simply have different emotions to communicate.

 

[Mercy One]

I disagree on your perception of the mind skills of wolves. Several skills you mention have few things to do with the brain (better smell could be an improvement in nose receptors, faster speed will be an improvement in muscles or physiognomy of the body for example).

As for intelligence science clearly says wolves are smarter:
Wolves Smarter Than Dogs? Study Finds Differences in Logical Ability

We can not know if the body language of dogs is honest in all cases, we just know it is is cute, and this should rise our doubts. It might be more honest than that of humans, so this is perhaps why you perceive them as honest - in a relative sense. The human species is likely to be the most psychopathic species of all, because it is the one that can organize in the largest groups without to much reactive violence getting in the way. If that is true we can not even estimate what we emotionally have done to the animals we exploited and exploit.

On your definition of leadership I am not so sure too. First expertise is not something genetic but something about being socially in a superior position already to get hold of the resource of education. Many people who are smart never receive good education so I think organizing hierarchy in this way is highly wasteful when it comes to the potential of the human brain of the whole of the population.

Now when it comes to the emotional leading skills of a leader, that will depend on the society around him. If the society is very aggressive than the emotional skills of a psychopath (high cognitive empathy but now sympathy) might be just called the higher "EQ" in that situation. But in a peaceful society with low hierarchy and higher levels of anarchy an EQ that is build on sympathy instead of the cognitive reading skills alone would be more useful. It makes the behavior of all members more predictable (less lying, everyone follows the same basic instincts such as helping each other) so that communication and cooperation can be better understood in that situation.

For the IQ of the leader even this is in larger factors influenced by the environment. For example stress is able to reduce the IQ even in adults (13 points if I remember it right) and we know that positive attention from others make your mind work better. So the leader might be intellectually better in some tasks because he received higher than average attention and educational resources from the start in modern societies.

Hierarchies represents a form of solving tasks in a strict order - like in a well ordered algorithm. It all depends on how smart the leader is, and the intellectual skills of those of the lower end of the hierarchy are often underused because they only execute instead of think. This could be one of the reasons or brain size is decreasing, most often our brains are underused and your survival really depends on how exact you execute and not that you think yourself.

Leaderships IQ could especially today depend more on his upbringing than his true genetic potential. And the mental health of the leader can change too. Solving problems in a hierarchical order represent older forms of computing while solving problems in more anarchic swarms represent new forms of computing (such as ant algorithms).

Swarm thinking should be much smarter for many tasks (as long as the anarchy factor is not so high, that complexity drops).

But as we have seen that there is a positive relationship between high honesty and high reactive violence (violence is a very honest form of communication about emotions and the errors of others - or it was at least because they psychopaths entered the scene and turned into the lie of instrumental aggression without any feeling behind it.)

So the challenge is to find a society organization form with some more anarchy that is on the other hand not to violent in the reactive sense.

But be aware that our society is very violent anyway already. Because we have this proactive planned psychopathic violence where we build army's over decades and than kill millions in wars to get natural resources. One really needs to understand the difference between proactive psychopathic violence and the reactive violence of a wolve who just feels annoyed or threatened and than shows it.

We are not less violent than our ancestors, we are already more violent but in a different way.

I want to suggest a new definition of adult behavior versus child behavior - now that we know the brain better, and hence can go beyond the superficial definitions of looks. It's:

1. How much you expect from the group in relation to how much you are willing to give too it. A child mostly takes and does not give.

2. Self-Centerdness of emotions: how easily you can sacrifice others to your subconscious need of "growing" into adulthood (in adults this biological program might just result in growing more and more wealth instead of growing your body). Furthermore: A tendency to not being emotional aware of the needs of others, but wanting them to be aware to your needs and to tend to them.

I summarize that learning logic in early childhood is more important and has to be done quicker than learning how to emotionally cooperate with others on complex tasks.

It does not make sense that your brain emotionally punishes and conditions you if you behave in an unsocial way AND if you are a child. All you need to do to survive is to convince the adults that you are a nice child - you do not really need to be one. The very small child could be the ultimate psychopath

 

[Mercy One]

I have to add this video too because it's funny: the researcher in it was so so close to seeing the truth (he develops the concept of pedomorphisation - turning into a child for explain human behavior). Than he even shortly mentions that nowadays we kill more through conspiracies than in the form of reactive violence. The only error he made was an emotional one: because he wanted so urgently to see just the positive side of humanity, he could not see that their might be something very seriously wrong with killing through conspiracies (which likely have a leader/hierachy). If he would have, he would have thought on, and discovered what serotonin is really doing. I count this as a typical alpha baby fail He had all the resources and attention and feedback of the scientific community, but apparently less real skill than he thought...

Edit: I did that guy wrong. He has the skill, but other scientist confused him. At that time there are methodological errors in studies about empathy and depression. He hence can not know that serotonin reduces empathy.

I include a video too on what are the drawbacks of having a low fear level (and hence low reactive violence) on empathy: you don't aid. Don't aiding, being uninterested like a psychopath in the fate of the starving members of the group might make some people with empathy so angry that they kill or try to kill the psychopathic individuals. But they are than killed by a hierarchical organized conspiracy because they are considered to be the evil guys...

 

[Mercy One]

OMG. The legal system...

 

[Jordy]

I think that autistic people are just individuals who were nerfed by god because they were to powerfull.

 

[Mercy One]

I found a cat kitten video that might be helpful to understand the behavior of adult narcissist.

The most striking feature of narcissist in a dispute is that they themselves can be very mean and insulting but that they flip if the slightest critique is directed at them.

They expect you to stay calm even if they strike you hard.

This is exactly what a mother cat is doing to train her kittens to fight: staying calm. Now once the kittens have become to large of course the injury they do on the mother becomes to large too, and she MUST stop them by doing real injury too.

The adult narcissist seems to be one who was never trained/stopped to understand that the injury he is doing now that he is an adult is to big.

He has not only more physical strength but his logic is much better and more dangerous as an adult too.

 

[Joshua the Writer]

I found a cat kitten video that might be helpful to understand the behavior of adult narcissist.

The most striking feature of narcissist in a dispute is that they themselves can be very mean and insulting but that they flip if the slightest critique is directed at them.

They expect you to stay calm even if they strike you hard.

This is exactly what a mother cat is doing to train her kittens to fight: staying calm. Now once the kittens have become to large of course the injury they do on the mother becomes to large too, and she MUST stop them by doing real injury too.

The adult narcissist seems to be one who was never trained/stopped to understand that the injury he is doing now that he is an adult is to big.

He has not only more physical strength but his logic is much better and more dangerous as an adult too.

Sorry, can you repeat that? I was distracted by the cute kitties in the video.

 

[Au Naturel]

"Narcissistic personality disorder is a personality disorder characterized by a long-term pattern of exaggerated feelings of self-importance, an excessive craving for admiration, and struggles with empathy. People with NPD often spend much time daydreaming about achieving power and success, and the perceived injustice of failing to do so." Wikipedia

But OTOH, a little bit of narcissism is good for you. It is where self-love and self-worth come from. Too much of anything is bad for you and becomes a disorder. So does too little.

Aspies are often so beaten down by the world they lack any narcissism at all. Or they may retreat into a narcissism where they think they are right and everyone else is wrong.

 

[Mercy One]

Aspies are often so beaten down by the world they lack any narcissism at all. Or they may retreat into a narcissism where they think they are right and everyone else is wrong.

Getting beaten down is sort of an important aspect of becoming an adult, one needs to know that life is not a permanent party. But Aspergers primarily get beaten down because you are to mature in you behavior, you take things serious (for example animal suffering and climate change) and that destroys the party mood. You are thrown out of society because without the adults the children can party harder ( see Greta Thurnberg and the very mean and dumb attacks on her).

I am not sure if this infantile craving for attention is necessary to survive, I think adult survival instinct is enough. And adults sacrifice in nature sometimes too to protect their young and the group. So I guess the neuronormals cheated you here by calling something "mentally healthy" that is just a feature of their genetic make up and that I personally find entirely unhelpfull. This is a trick of language, "smoke and mirrors" although they where not aware of it.

Sometimes one has to question the validity of language. For example I think that the term "alpha wolve" was very unhelpfull because it sounds very adult and hence disguised the real mechanism.

 

[Mercy One]

I thank you very much Joshua and Au Naturel for reading this long and sort disorganized explanations of mine It helps me that someone is finally interested in what I think, this is just the way humans learn. But now I have run into the serious problem that I am just to disorganized and unconcentrated to keep good notes.

I have read an article somewhere that language has probably evolved by positively selecting babies that created unusual interesting voice patterns that have little useful information value but are good at drawing the attention of the parents because of their uniqueness. I guess the idea was that babys who could draw the attention of adults better (even if they where not so much in need at that moment) had a higher survival chance than those that couldn't. If the link to adult narcissism was made I don't know because I read only the first sentences. Unluckily I can't find that link anymore.

But I can find adult examples of "alpha babys" that produce "unusual and interesting communication patterns that draw a lot of attention but have little useful information value" :

Needless to say that statistically seen famous singers have a higher than average narcissism values.

But the problem is always the same: they gash a high number of physical resources in their permanent birthday parties and they draw attention away from the real babys in need (human attention is not infinite):

 

[Mercy One]

By the way: This could be why the voice of Aspergers sound disagreeable or strange to the people of neuronormals: the Asperger just focus on intellectual content instead of drawing attention.

 

[Thinx]

Hi, very interesting ideas here, thanks. I guess I would think of narcissism as coming about to a large degree through nurture rather than brain difference? Lacks in the early environment, not necessarily of wealth at all, but of appropriate care that supports healthy development. Is there any evidence that narcissism is a brain difference?

Interesting what you say about armies as premeditated violence, but although you make a good point there and this can be how they are used, to get resources, I don't see the evidence that this is their main intended function in current times. Show of force as a deterrent? Uses for peacekeeping or protection? Clearly at times muddled and misguided, but... pretty useful for sandbagging in flooded areas and delivering covid testing and vaccines?

 

[Mercy One]

As I understand it you can today measure to some degree if someone feels true empathy. I guess it will have to do a bit with mirror neurons. They furthermore assume that narcissism has some genetic component but they could not identify individual genes like in psychopathy yet. I make a first guess that this gens are linked to what the anthropologist in the video called "pädomorphisation" - beeing more childlike.

Large parts of narcissism will however be nurture. I guess there are several ways to create a narcissist. If you have like very arrogant parents that don't care for you maybe you do more to get their attention? But I think in the majority of cases it could be the other way round: I think it has something to do with giving the child to much attention and don't setting moral borders or correcting his errors when it has come to the age where in theory it could understand and learn adult moral.

I guess the more attention you give to someone the more it rises it's serotonin and that could turn him back (or freeze forever at) to the emotional level of a small child. This than would be the nurture component and yes it is probably strong. Rich people are statistically a little bit more narcissist than the average person, but their children tend to be the really strong narcissists.

It could be that normal adults treat that children to friendly even if they act evil, because they want to become friends with their parents. That in turn could rise their place in the hierarchy but the child never learns that it is not a child anymore.

As for the violence of army's: aggression has a very high cost in nature so even very feral animals will avoid it, if it's possible. So our armies tend to avoid aggression to wherever it is possible.

But they keep up a very strong hierarchy between the west and the developing countries, which is effectively starving many people over there. Of course you need more than just army's to achieve that effect but they are part of that mechanism.

I think that is the definition of cold premeditated violence.

 

[Mercy One]

By the way I forgot that maniacs produce a lot of "unusual and interesting communication patterns that draw a lot of attention but have little useful information value" too. They are called jokes, I guess that is my survival strategy.

 

[Mercy One]

So let me summarize this: the extreme male brain theory of autism is very likely false. The theory that the so called "alpha male" has anything male in him is the worst thinking mistake humanity ever made. And our constant evolutionary fight for status is not making us any smarter, like the capitalists want to make us believe. It is zooming our EQ and IQ down to the level of children. Nice.

The funny thing is that every scientific alpha baby desperately tries to find something male in his behavior, and poses all evils of society on it becoming to "feminine". Maybe the desperation is so big, because he knows there is nothing really male left in him...

But the best thing is: we made babies our leaders and handed them over our high-tech arms. I advise all surviving adults to stay cool and pretend that nothing unusual is happening...

I will now go back to fulfill the main task society accorded the highly neurodivergent genius: die slowly and painfully.

I hope someone else with better health and higher in the hierarchy of evil will be able to make this ideas known to the scientific community.

Edit: welcome to the manic version of the anger fit.

 

[Mercy One]

Dishonest communication in neuronormals and late motor development in autistic children:

I earlier on suggested that forms of communications which look more optical or musically attractive but contain less usable information represent one form of dishonest communication (where dishonest communication seems to be a hallmark of more psychopathic traits) and that furthermore this could be a form of competition between babys for attention and hence survival resources.

They baby that did not get enough attention in this competition was to all certainty the autistic baby, because his motor skills develop slower: "Also, babies who do not move much or cannot grasp objects tend not to elicit interactions from their caregivers, thereby limiting opportunities to learn language and other skills from adults."

Motor difficulties in autism, explained

My bipolar ancestors must have starved autistic children too through drawing unnecessary attention by making lots of jokes. This was not exactly what I wanted to find out.

Maturing of the brain in autistic children seem to be decoupled from serotonin levels

Serotonin declines while normal children age. In autistic children it stays constant.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/000456328702400613

This suggests that autistic people use a different mechanism than positive attention from others to build their personality. If they do so their personality can not be reversed back into the toddler state by positive attention.