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Featured Evolution of Asperger, Bipolar people and psychopaths

Discussion in 'General Autism Discussion' started by Mercy One, Dec 27, 2020.

  1. Mercy One

    Mercy One Active Member

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    Hypothesis: Modern humans use the emotional mechanism that was originally developed to regulate the behavior of children versus adults to regulate the behavior of people in hierarchies. Aspergers are to emotionally adult to fit in.

    Hi,

    I am a bipolar women– I have strong emotions which switch back from very happy to very sad. I have a high IQ too. I know from my friends that the Asperger can focus much better and especially longer on a task than me. So if there is someone interested in evolution I wonder if he could help me to order my thoughts and find error?

    I have some hypothesis of how the difference between Asperger, bipolar people and primary psychopaths roughly came about in evolutionary terms.

    My main intention is to stop the psychopaths because I think they represent an unfavorable (and pretty dumb) line of evolution that is unluckily winning now.

    When it comes to Aspergers I have the opposite instinct, although I really don't understand them very well yet.

    I made a table as a summary about what I think (or guess) are the main differences between the three groups. But if I make errors – which is likely because I am not an Asperger and luckily not a psychopath too– you are free to correct me.


    If you think about psychopathy don't over-diagnose people in your surrounding. As I will argue neurotypical people are all a bit psychopathic but the distance to a true psychopath is still very very large. Neurotypical people usually have a sense for social justice too, and they don't fake many emotions.


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    If one wants to picture this three groups of humans as different animal species I would say the bipolar is some kind of marmot that likes to live in a large group with not much of hierarchy, or a hierarchy that constantly changes. He shares resources with the group easily because it wants to survive as part of the group (manic spending if one is well off). Like marmots with their cries they are able to sacrifice (The marmot that cries and warns the others is the most likely to be spotted by the predator. When a maniac laughs loudly at someone aggressive this could be a similar mechanism). It could be a kind of less exact but speedy intelligence that is made for swarm communication. In a swarm less accuracy is usually not so much of a problem, because errors are averaged out by the group.


    The autistic person must be from some kind of shy species with smaller groups where individuals have to watch themselves without the helps of crying marmots often. They hence pay careful attention to their surrounding to spot predators on their own. This might require an even higher intelligence than the bipolar, as a swarm intelligence can usually be effective even if the individual members are not so smart.

    In a certain sense Asperger could be compared to wolves too. Wolves have a higher intelligence than dogs, but they can not hide or controll their anger as well as domesticated dogs (More sincere communication again, if you see anger as a form of communication).


    Nevertheless both bipolar people and autistic people want to live and work as a group, this can be seen from their aversion to lies and or lies that cause aggression between group members, as well from their willingness to share resources. A sincere communication is less prone to factual errors.

    Primary psychopaths are closer to domesticated dogs. Domesticated dogs have a lower fear level (lower cortisol levels just like psychopaths) and a lower intelligence than wolves. They are as well more attuned to status as they repoduce more serotonin (the brain of the psychopaths seems to be flooded with serotonin while still in the womb).

    Be aware that serotonin is not the hormone that makes you happy (as thought) but the hormone that conveys you the feeling of being superior in status. It will make neuronormal more psychopathic in higher concentrations (lower empathy, increased speed in solving moral dilemmas.)

    Because of the lower fear levels of dog and their willingness to – superficially- submit to a hierarchy they have the more „social“ and predictable behavior towards humans (they bite less, when humans don't respect them). But when it comes to manipulating human emotions to gain resources they seem to be very good (there are much more dogs alive now than wolves).

    Now since the communication of the psychopath is not sincere it will cause a huge number of factual errors in the group, even the white lies of the bipolar would not always be beneficial here. This high number of factual errors will decrease the survivable abilities of the group against powers of nature. But this is no concern for the psychopath. Because if there is a survival problem psychopaths expect the people with the lowest status to pay the price and die, not the people who caused the problem. In this sense strong hierarchies are very evil and not really effective in generating knowledge.

    In total I guess our species is becoming more psychopathic (brain size is decreasing, which probably means that IQ is decreasing. Violence level is increasing, but this increase has been temporary stopped by the modern state). I guess that violence in a modern state is less visible and in many ways even more psychopathic than in tribe societies. Means murders through mobbing are not counted as murders in states which make their violence level seem lower than it is. Prevention from reproduction could as well be counted as a fom of hidden violence in modern states. The positive interpretation of this decline in open violence however could be that through the rising of science neurodivergent people have found a way to fight back.

    I wonder if the only reason why the social behavior of autistic people is deemed unacceptable is because they now live in a group that mainly consists of dogs and not of wolves, and the dogs make the judgment what should be normal behavior for the species. If that is right the Aspergers are more like the early humans.

    I give you links that I hope support this ideas.

    Effects of self-domestication on humans:




    Rising violence in humans:

    (PDF) The phylogenetic roots of human lethal violence


    I as well speculate that psychopathy is in reality a form of not becoming an adult. In the video on self-domestication you see that our faces start to resemble more and more those of children. The genetic mechanism could be that whatever genes regulate the speed of the development of the brain and skull, speedd up the aging of the psychopaths brain to fast – it terminates most of it's development before that brain has developed the capabilities for emotions and true empathy. It is reasonable that logic (pattern recognition) develops in babies before emotion. Pattern recognition is important to learn anything. But emotions, especially honest emotions and body language are not so important for a small baby, especially a baby in the womb. It does not have to fulfill any kind of social responsibility in a social group yet. So why should it bind emotionally or have a sense for justice and duty? It's only task is to grow, and the parents in our species are mostly ok with sacrificing themselves so that the baby can focus on growing. A baby gets a high amount of attention without doing anything useful to receive that attention. It just needs to be a baby. The psychopath that chase for status does the same: they want a high amount of attention for doing basically nothing useful.

    Edit: I include two links that show that serotonin could be involved in the maturing of emotions.

    Serotonin drops when you fall in love. This actually makes sense, because when you want to found a family this is the latest point to become an adult: Love, Actually: The science behind lust, attraction, and companionship - Science in the News

    Empathy can be decreased by taking a serotonin re-uptake inhibitor (increasing the serotonin): Antidepressant treatment, not depression, leads to reductions in behavioral and neural responses to pain empathy | Translational Psychiatry
     

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    Last edited: Dec 29, 2020
  2. Neonatal RRT

    Neonatal RRT Active Member

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    Wow. I do appreciate all the hard work and thought put into this. I am not sure this is appropriate for the social media format, but rather more the beginnings of a thesis or book. I am assuming you were fishing for some constructive feedback and/or to stimulate some further discussion. As you likely know, one of the hallmarks of autism and Asperger's is neurodiversity, neurodivergence, asymmetrical functional neuroanatomy,...and resultant asymmetry in IQs within the same person. Having said that, autism spectrum disorders can be difficult to describe concisely.

    The evolutionary perspective is interesting, in and of itself. We do know there are hundreds of identified autism markers, but there are identical twins, one with, the other without. Autism appears to be multi-factoral as the intrauterine environment (hormonal milieu, maternal nutrition, etc.) does play a role, but there may be undiscovered "micro genetics" that play a role,...as even "identical" twins are not actually identical. I am very limited in my knowledge of bipolar disorder,...I've only witnessed it in others,...so I cannot comment. Keep up the great work.
     
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  3. Aspychata

    Aspychata Serenity waves, beachy vibes

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    Interesting. I prefer working with very small offices and l don't prefer groups, and l only fit the Austitic shelf yet l really don't suffer much from anger. l find humor in the oddest moments. Just curious, what is your background? What is your primary interst in life? Can you apply your stats to the criminal deviant population? Also feel bipolar wins hands down in regards to anger from 18 years of experience of living with one. Are you on medication? And do you experience many manic episodes? Just curious. Only reply if you feel like it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2020
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  4. tree

    tree Blue/Green Staff Member V.I.P Member

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    "My main intention is to stop the psychopaths..."
    @Mercy One

    How do you intend to do that?
     
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  5. Streetwise

    Streetwise very cautious contributor V.I.P Member

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    Which end of the polarity are you at present,no I'm not very social.

    people can be angry for many reasons ,not just being in one neurological group ,if you have a head injury that can cause a personality change ,which could be permanent and still be anyone of the neurologies,all levels of function in autism are usually equated to felines ,to me with b.p.d ,it's depends on the end of the polarity you are at, if you are mainly depressed you wouldn't be very marmot(woodchuck,groundhog)like, ,marmot aren't as sociable I've seen one nearly attack one of its progeny(young,child),much more like a cockatoo(Australian larger parrot),to me n.ts are like chimpanzees but no other sentient being is pure destruction like humans.
    There aren't many psychopaths ,there are a lot of narcissists who could become a violent psychotic( as opposed to a non violent psychotic who would probably labelled as being vv mildly eccentric) and I don't think they evolve ,I think it's wrong encouragement and selfcentredness .
     
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  6. unperson

    unperson Well-Known Member V.I.P Member

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    agree about the childish nature of psychopathy, borderlines have the ego/rage of a 3 year old.
     
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  7. Mercy One

    Mercy One Active Member

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    Very good question. Their emotional age is that of a baby and maybe even a baby that has not yet been born. Hopefully if the genetic origins are better understood it can be treated somehow? Psychopaths have a high sensation seeking, it's like they still want to learn but don't know what it is they want to learn (I guess it will be the true emotional skills that adults).
     
  8. Mercy One

    Mercy One Active Member

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    That is correct you would not be like the marmot in depressed state. But my hypothesis is that the bipolar is doing quiet a high division of labor, so there would always be some fearless manic marmots around, besides the depressed one. But I am now thinking that it has less to to with being a marmot. The behavior of autistic people emotionally will most closely represent that of an adult man of the original species (both female and male autistic people). And that of the bipolar people will represent most exactly the behavior of an adult female of our original species (again both male and female bipolar people).
     
  9. Mercy One

    Mercy One Active Member

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    I have manic episodes and I take some medications but I can often go with much less medication and there will not be much harm. But I am bipolar 1, I can experience psychosis too. The reason why a bipolar wins on the anger issue could be that an autistic man or women is more like a father and a bipolar person person is more like a mother in behavior.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2020
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  10. Mercy One

    Mercy One Active Member

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    I hope that I at least could describe the Aspergers to a degree of correctness. I am as well not sure if I describe the bipolar person only or the high IQ bipolar. Thanks very much for your encouragement. It is very difficult to find people to talk and ponder science if that is not their job to do that. I have a science degree, but I didn't feel fit enough anymore to write a scientific paper (I experienced to much mobbing already and the fields of sciences needed here only have a mediocre overlap with my degree anyway. I would be regarded with high skepticism).
     
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  11. Mercy One

    Mercy One Active Member

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    I thought about narcicism more yesterday evening and in the night. I guess that serotonin is nowadays a status hormone at least in adults but that it originally it was solely related to the emotional aging of the brain.

    Evolution just repurposed it at some point to create a species that has a hierarchy. My best guess of what high serotonin does is turning the age clock backward in the brain so that you now will resemble in behavior more a toddler and this is what we have called "narcissism": You want attention all the time - like a child is usually the focus of a group of adults love and attention. You have high expectations of what other shall do for you, but you don't do much for them (toddlers are not expected to work or work hard).

    You expect to be liked, even if you don't contribute much to the emotional functioning of the group (you don't need to, the adults organize the emotional function, security and division of labor of the group in reality) . You think that all your thoughts are very great, original and smart (We give toddlers the impression that even their smallest mental progress is awesome. This is to encourage them to learn). .

    Now if you treat one person like a very loved toddler the serotonin in him will rise and that person will emotionally really become like a toddler. Because toddlers true emotional intelligence is so low they can do something that adults can not do: they can sacrifice members of the group for some kind of "higher good" easily. Because truly adult members of our species would not be able to do that (it would emotionally traumatize them, adults are really there to protect the group, not to sacrifice it's members) the ability to sacrifice people like a thoughtless self absorbed egocentric little toddler is identified as a leadership skill... The most self absorbed toddler is made the leader of the entire group and this is what evolutionary enables hierarchy in an animal that once was probably solitary or had no hierarchy.

    From my instinct adults of both sexes of the autistic people represent the last true surviving adult fathers (loyal, hard working, focused, stern and honest, high sense for social justice, good optical thinking for the purpose of hunting).

    Bipolar people (both sexes) could be more the true mothers (They have an intelligence that is very much language focused. Their high verbal speed enables them to interfere quickly in a social situation that is turning aggressive. They usually try to resolve it with a joke. They as well sing a lot. This abilities are all useful at calming down the toddlers - should they want to start one of their usual fights for attention. Having a low aversion to anger (in fact not being able to recognize it in the face) could be a useful skill for a mother. She is not supposed to run away from the toddler or even turn aggressive to him even if that toddler is in a bad mood.

    I am entirely unimpressed by the baby-dogs violent hierarchy struggles for attention.

    It might have been evolutionary adaptive at some point of history to organize societies in this way. But in modern societies with all the high tech around it kills us and our planet.
     
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  12. Mercy One

    Mercy One Active Member

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    Oh an this is why the narcissists, psychopaths etc. say they see cheating people and destroying people more like a game and can't understand why the looser of that games get so angry and hurt. They really think it is a game, because what toddlers do are games. "I won you lost."
     
  13. unperson

    unperson Well-Known Member V.I.P Member

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    On the subject of the infantilisation of power, the bible puts it thusly..

    "I will give children to be their princes, and babes shall rule over them."

    Isaiah 3:4
     
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  14. Skittlebisquit

    Skittlebisquit Dancing is exercise

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    I only have the little phone screen, its hard to see the charts. Have you ever heard of "wordpress"? Its free. I set up a wordpress account in about 10 minutes. Its a blog, im not all that techno literate, blog is like a bank, but for information. I wanted to email pixs and original art amd writing, but thats rude i guess. So i post it to the blog, then email the friend say hey i blogged, then they can go look.
     
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  15. unperson

    unperson Well-Known Member V.I.P Member

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    she'll get doxxed by sociopaths on a blog. There used to be a sociopath blog that openly declared war on autistics.
     
  16. Alexej

    Alexej Well-Known Member V.I.P Member

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    One comment about your table.

    I am not sure how the table can capture the range of variability in the way that Aspieness is expressed. There is the phrase, if you have met one aspie - you have met one aspie. The table seems to group us all into having the same characteristics and I don't think that is really a good reflection.

    Having said that I am not able to suggest a better way of doing it.However, an interesting table though

    Just my twopenceworth
     
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  17. Skittlebisquit

    Skittlebisquit Dancing is exercise

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    I make up number letter combinations and add them in a margin by section, then list the ones that go together. I apologize for the blog suggestion, i am niave. I have a whiteboard too. The practice that improved my writing the most is whacky, difficult and time consuming.
    I read aloud what i wrote and record my voice..then listen to what i said (playback) while i am looking at the text. I make notes and changes while im doing that. Whiteboard handy for something fast or a drawing. Take pictures of the board, if needed. Then rewrite, add graphics and save it. I dont typically share alot of it, but i mean to while i am doing it. To complete the process i want to get feedback from someone about what i wrote, like validation i guess. Thank you for sharing your work, i will read it in greater depth, not tonite, eyestrain.
     
  18. Joshua Aaron

    Joshua Aaron ️Autistic Pansexual, Young Tiefling Warlock, CG V.I.P Member

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    TLDR, please? I often have a hard time reading long posts like this in detail.
     
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  19. Mercy One

    Mercy One Active Member

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    That is deep. I am a Christian, I will remember this.
     
  20. Mercy One

    Mercy One Active Member

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    I suggest that the alpha wolves of our societies should be better named alpha babies because I guess that serotonin is involved in forming their social behavior. If you have a high serotonin level like people with high social status usually have this in my opinion turns back the emotional learning clock of your brain. You turn back emotionally into a cruel thoughtless toddler while your logic is that of an adult. This enables the "alpha baby" to lead by being able to sacrifice others without being emotionally affected by their fate (the so called leadership qualities).

    If you have low serotonin levels in contrast you behave more like an emotionally mature adult. And adults are willing to sacrifice for their "babies" . They for example take on more risky fighting tasks than children should engage in. Or they even voluntary starve if they are to unhealthy to aid (depression).

    Asperger seem to have better developed more adult (less psychopathic) emotions and this probably means they are the older species of humans. Their famous anger fits are probably the risky fighting strategy of adults and their honesty is risky too. But they are loyal and they help the weak like adults do. They in the emotional sense know better what danger is and act accordingly. From various behaviors it can be deducted that they don't care so much about hierarchy.

    They have a higher hunter intelligence too because I guess they either chased alone or in very small groups. Without a social division of labor like in a hierarchy you can't let others think for you. You have to think for yourself and that requires lots of brain.

    The high hunter intelligence is not assessed correctly in modern IQ tests because this tests are more adapted to tasks that are required in the society of the emotional babies.
     
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