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Ever get in trouble for a facial expression?

unperson said:
They used to call autism 'childhood schizophrenia', iirc. You have to hear voices to have the Phrenia.
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That's interesting, and it doesn't surprise me, actually. The list of traits for childhood schizophrenia sound almost identical to autism.
 
To say an NT's communication is not honest is untrue. If you are another NT it is often completely honest in that there is no intent to mislead. If two NTs communicate accurately to each other but you do not catch the meaning that isn't being dishonest. Obviously NTs do communicate honestly and accurately with each other most of the time or no cooperative venture could ever exist. An ND may simply not be picking up on the entire spectrum of communication. That doesn't make it deceptive or dishonest.
 
So why not just say what you mean and mean what you say? I don't see any difference between not so doing and a lie.
 
Skeletor said:
So why not just say what you mean and mean what you say? I don't see any difference between not so doing and a lie.
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I think a certain level of meaning something other than what you say is an expected and accepted part of communication, it's understood (by neurotypical people lol) and seen as "polite". The expectation when someone communicates this way is that you know that they are communicating this way and also that you understand what they're (not) saying.

This, of course, utterly falls flat where neurodivergence is concerned. So they get mad at us for not understanding their unspoken meaning, and we get mad at them for lying or being inconsistent.
 
I worked in a Chinese restaurant ( I am not Chinese ) , the chef was Chinese, i would ask him a question about a food item and sometimes i would blink my eyes mimicking his eye blinking if he wouldn't answer it, he just expected us to know it. He accused me of being racist by squinting my eyes, but i was just blinking them. :oops::eek:

I quit shortly after that.
 
Skeletor said:
My mother and other family members hated my frowns and eyerolls. They are by far my most common facial expressions and I don't get smiling for no reason. I've been told I have an extremely expressive face. Problem is I myself don't communicate that way at all. Faces and body language mean nothing to me, and I communicate in a straightforward verbal way. I say straightforward because I always truthfully say what I mean and mean what I say. I have read that neurotypicals communicate in a way that is about 80 percent non verbal. And that when they do talk it's not honest they never say what they mean and are always hunting for some hidden meaning.
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NTs (or as I call them, culturals) learn facial expressions, voice intonation and body language cues at a very early age (before 3). The first face they learn is what I call "the disapproval face". Most people on the spectrum (I call extra-culturals) learn either a subset of these cues or none at all.

This is all part of the so called "theory of mind". The theory of mind is a bunch of cultural expectations, predictions and communication.

You show face X which means Y in the culture. Most likely they are interpreting your face as the "disapproval face". This face triggers mirror neurons in culturals (NTs) that tells them that they are doing something wrong. Culturals (NTs) see that face and cannot figure out which cultural expectation they are violating. That face actually hurts them. Adult culturals rarely give or get that face. It would make them angry.

What is funny is that that face actually hurts me physically and I cannot figure out what I did wrong to offend the cultural (NT). I actually get in trouble for asking what I did to get that face (of course I should know... but autism, yay!). It destroyed a valued friendship.

My wife is on the spectrum and people ask her why she is angry when she is just thinking. When I am at the dentist, my face is totally exaggerated as it always is when I am stressed out. They ask me constantly if I am in pain. My face goes between loving kindness and almost an animal like look (my natural face). The loving kindness is often misinterpreted for being needy and the animal face... well lets just say that it is problematic on a whole different level.

Honestly... culturals (NTs) are mostly non-verbal (when it comes to these cultural expectations)... and guess what? None of them share exactly the same culture. That face reading stuff goes sideways for them constantly. They need to be taught how to communicate verbally in (marriage) counseling. I suppose verbal language is much easier for them than any of us learning to read their faces but they have "NT privilege". When someone has privilege, they get angry when they are asked for understanding or accommodation. They prefer to invalidate the experience of someone who does not have that privilege. Most of them are ableists.
 
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I'm always told that I look like I'm having a bad time when I go out. I have that frown that you can't get rid of, but I always tell people I'm just having deep thoughts.
 
I am calling bs on the whole nt empathy theory of mind crapola. I see nothing empathic about the way these people operate. People with any empathy wouldn't tolerate bullies.... They are lacking in a theory of OTHER minds...
 
Skeletor said:
I am calling bs on the whole nt empathy theory of mind crapola. I see nothing empathic about the way these people operate. People with any empathy wouldn't tolerate bullies...They are lacking in a theory of OTHER minds...
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That "empathy" is simply that you understand the non-verbal language that they use and react in ways that are predictable. I personally find "the theory of mind" stupid. It is simple... we don't learn the rules that they did and we violate those rules because we never learned them... they expect people to know these rules intrinsically.

So... NTs don't have a "theory of mind"... they have "rules of behavior". People with ASD are CONSTANTLY trying to figure them out and we have theories about why they do what they do. We are the ones with the theory of mind.
 
As a kid I always got in trouble for what my face was doing and I had no clue. Was undiagnosed autistic until last summer at 47. Now I tell people 1) I have no filters and 2) I don't know what my face is doing and 3) I tend to say what I think and not to offend people. Doesn't matter, they still think I'm doing it. So I piss people off with my face, silence, or talking. Can't win some days.
 
I haven’t gotten in trouble for it, but people do try to see things in my body language that aren’t true at all.

My eye-rolls really freak people out, because my left eye doesn’t go up all the way, so my eyes aren’t aligned when I look up with the other eye. That’s why I learned early to close my eyes to do it (although I’ll show it to people as kind of a “hey, look what I can do!” sort of thing).

My grandpa’s always telling me to smile. When he does, I do for about two seconds. I can’t manage to keep a smile on my face if there’s nothing to make me smile.
 
I’m 49 and still get in trouble for facial expressions. :D Typically my resting face and I’m bored out of my mind, eye rolling and omg...are you actually STILL talking about (enter boring topic.) face.
 
OrdinaryCitizen said:
Maybe you learned this eye rolling as defensive reaction and do it automatically towards without even noticing...
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Just clarifying if you were quoting me or not. I usually eye roll due to impatience and/or aggravation.
Would you mind providing example of how eye rolling is used as defensive reaction? I honestly don’t understand how someone would use an eye roll defensively. Thx.
 
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