Do you often find NTs illogical or unreasonable?

[Libecht]

I consider myself very logical and quite reasonable, and I often have problem communicating (or arguing) with NTs.

Before anyone tells me the cliche, no I'm the "He has different opinions so I'm right and he's unreasonable" kind of people. By "logical" I meant the actual logic, the one which includes 'premises' 'conclusions' and 'If q then p if not p then not q".

The kind of argument that often occurs between me and an NT:
"If the purpose of your question was to seek truth, then you asked the wrong one because both answers lead to the same conclusion."
"But if what you just said was true, than your previous assumption couldn't possibly be true as well. Yes I know what you wanted to do but I'm telling you it's pointless!"
"If you could keep asking 'Why?' it'd create an infinite causality chain.......NO I just told you it would be infinite"
In these situations NTs usually keep holding their arguments without realizing their logical flaws, leaving me with a headache.

Do you have similar experiences? Is it my fault or Aspies are really better at logic and reasoning?

 

[Suzanne]

Yes, often leaves me with open mouth and wide eyes in shock! I ususally get back: well that is the way "normal" people think and you are in the "normal" world and I say: in that case, I sincerely wish I wasn't and so glad I am not "normal" with that kind of "logic" that gives me a headache and often a meltdown.

Can't think of an example right now though.

 

[FreeDiver]

Yes! that seems to be the universal question ask here on AS. You're not alone, about 99% of everybody here would ask that question.

 

[Judge]

I suppose it depends on the argument, and how effective logic may or may not play a role in it.

Though just providing such an answer may already tell you where I stand on such an issue in general.

 

[Joel's Hear]

I'd say in well over half of arguments between NTs and ASDs the ASD is correct and is more logical; the NT is only arguing an illogical NT rule set. Sometimes, even if this is he case, it is good to listen, just so you know for future reference what the rule is. I find some NTs absolutely abhor ASDs, because they are so linked in to their illogical rules, but some NTs on some level do respect ASDs, and simply wish to inform them of the current (they always change) "correct" ways of thinking.

But, I've been in several arguments with people who on some level know I'm right but refuse to admit it, siting how the world would say I'm wrong.

Sorry if a bit confusing.

 

[Keigan]

Why are you arguing or debating with anyone? If it is to prove your point then you are going to receive exactly the kind of responses you are receiving, defensive. If you are trying to influence then you need to take a different approach, one that will enroll your audience towards listening to your ideas.

 

[Dadwith2Autisticsons]

I consider myself very logical and quite reasonable, and I often have problem communicating (or arguing) with NTs.

Before anyone tells me the cliche, no I'm the "He has different opinions so I'm right and he's unreasonable" kind of people. By "logical" I meant the actual logic, the one which includes 'premises' 'conclusions' and 'If q than p if not p than not q".

The kind of argument that often occurs between me and an NT:
"If the purpose of your question was to seek truth, then you ask the wrong one because both answers lead to the same conclusion."
"But if what you just said was true, than your previous assumption couldn't possibly be true as well. Yes I know what you wanted to do but I'm telling you it's pointless!"
"If you could keep asking 'Why?' it'd create an infinite causality chain.......NO I just told you it would be infinite"
In these situations NTs usually keep holding their arguments without realizing their logical flaws, leaving me with a headache.

Do you have similar experiences? Is it my fault or Aspies are really better at logic and reasoning?

I think logic and good reasoning comes easier for Aspies than NTs. Even though I majored in Math at college, it did not feel natural for me to learn it. I got great grades, but it was not fun for me, nor did it come real easy. Some cultures and societies put a strong emphasis on teaching logic, with much pressure and academic discipline, so they get great at it. This is not to say Aspies do not study hard and work hard at logic and reasoning, but Aspies may physically be more gifted there, so when they study and succeed there it may be at least partially because of genetic component.

While I likely am not an Aspie, according to that test I took, where I scored way higher as an NT, I do not consider myself a typical NT either as I am so different from them in terms of social skills and other functioning components and personality Our one oldest Autistic son Aaron is extremely logical. He loves order, sequencing, rules, and not using emotion or situation to alter his conclusions. This is not being taught to him. It is coming naturally from him.

In many cases, having great logic is special, but at other times rules will be need to be broken, or there must be exceptions to rules. In my case, I think I have a 50/50 balance. I often love order, rules and structure, and can often have sound reasoning, but I can have spontaneity, and I often question things, and proceed in a way that seems a bit improper, less rational or not logical, but when the unique situation and emotion calls for that, for me it is the right path.

 

[clg114]

Everything that I believe to be true, my priorities and almost everything that I do are based on logical thought. I find it hard to understand why anyone would do illogical things. However, I do understand that there could be very strong circumstances that have effect on what someone thinks or does.

 

[WereBear]

Many NTs behave as though they have decided on what they want to believe, and then use rationalization (though they think it's "logic") to keep on believing it. These are the ones most aghast at an AS person stating an objective truth that is as obvious to them as the roundness of the earth might be to an astronaut in space... we still have flat-earthers, do we not?

Many NTs think the more people believe that something is true, the more likely it is to be true, and they do not bother to investigate it. The thought of going against common wisdom in this way is so distressing to them even strong proof of them being wrong cannot shake their social comfort in believing the way the majority does.

This is what the classic tale of "The Emperor's New Clothes" is all about. That little child who shouted out "he's naked!" might have had Asperger's

 

[Dadwith2Autisticsons]

Everything that I believe to be true, my priorities and almost everything that I do are based on logical thought. I find it hard to understand why anyone would do illogical things. However, I do understand that there could be very strong circumstances that have effect on what someone thinks or does.

Let's say a rule is, "When we turn on the fan, it blows cold air." Does logical thought mean we should expect that to always occur?" If past experiences have said sometimes the house fan did not turn on, because of a faulty wire, or that the air conditioning fan in the car by mistake blows out hot air instead on hot days, then it seems not irrational to question the stated rule. Maybe I am using bad logic. I am not sure.

 

[Soona45]

Yes I find NTs illogical and unreasonable. Not always but most of the time. They seem very emotionally driven.

Somebody they like can do no harm, somebody they don't like can do no right.

To me they seem to make up stories or conclusions in their heads. No matter how much logic you apply to the argument, or disprove their theory, they will stick to their guns.It baffles me and frustrates me.

I find them very vague as well. I mean unless your lying or trying to exert power, wouldn't you just say what you mean??? Unless theyre constantly trying to keep their true thoughts hidden as some sort of power play, or to hide the fact that their not that deep, interesting or nice??

Again it's not all NTs or all of the time. Just something I've noticed about them in general.

 

[Keigan]

Many NTs behave as though they have decided on what they want to believe, and then use rationalization (though they think it's "logic") to keep on believing it. These are the ones most aghast at an AS person stating an objective truth that is as obvious to them as the roundness of the earth might be to an astronaut in space... we still have flat-earthers, do we not?

Many NTs think the more people believe that something is true, the more likely it is to be true, and they do not bother to investigate it. The thought of going against common wisdom in this way is so distressing to them even strong proof of them being wrong cannot shake their social comfort in believing the way the majority does.

This is what the classic tale of "The Emperor's New Clothes" is all about. That little child who shouted out "he's naked!" might have had Asperger's

So true. I speak the truth based upon facts, not assumption. If it is a hypothesis then I start my statement with "I have a hypothesis".

 

[Judge]

Many NTs behave as though they have decided on what they want to believe, and then use rationalization (though they think it's "logic") to keep on believing it. These are the ones most aghast at an AS person stating an objective truth that is as obvious to them as the roundness of the earth might be to an astronaut in space... we still have flat-earthers, do we not?

Many NTs think the more people believe that something is true, the more likely it is to be true, and they do not bother to investigate it. The thought of going against common wisdom in this way is so distressing to them even strong proof of them being wrong cannot shake their social comfort in believing the way the majority does.

This is what the classic tale of "The Emperor's New Clothes" is all about. That little child who shouted out "he's naked!" might have had Asperger's

Indeed. It reminds me that the business axiom "Perception is reality" remains a very powerful one.

However it was one created by and for Neurotypicals. The vast majority of society. Enabled even further when it may be politically democratic- where the coveted rule of any political majority prevails.

 

[WereBear]

Indeed. It reminds me that the business axiom "Perception is reality" remains a very powerful one.

However it was one created by and for Neurotypicals. The vast majority of society. Enabled even further when it may be politically democratic- where the coveted rule of any political majority prevails.

This might be the central struggle of my life: the complete absence of "flips." As in, "I don't give a flip what the social rules are, it makes no sense to require me to do this thing. So I cannot do this thing."

For me, social rules are like tissue paper; easy to punch through and unworthy of serious consideration as a barrier to thought or action. My own sense of logic, order, and avoiding negative consequences, on the considerable other hand, are as solid as a slab of granite.

When I am forced to do something stupid, for a reason they cannot explain to me, "just because," it is a form of mental torment. I might as well be called up to explain an academic paper by being asked to tap dance, or defend myself in a court of law with only a car horn, like Harpo Marx.

You might as well ask me to wear my head upside down.

 

[WereBear]

I think back to a constant struggle during my childhood, where I was incessantly told wearing skirts or dresses were more "modest" than wearing shorts or pants. I thought this was so absurd I couldn't believe I was hearing it, and believe me, I heard it a lot.

Why didn't this apply to males? "It just doesn't." But people can see my underwear when I do anything active, or even if the wind blew. "Don't let your skirt blow up. Stay out of trees." But I hated the feel of stockings or tights under a skirt, they were always too short in the leg and much too intrusive in a sensory way. "You'll get used to it." But I never, ever, did.

What they meant, I now know, is that I was supposed to dress in a way that pretended I did not have a form, an actual body; skirts were more "modest" because they let everyone pretend I had a bell-shaped lower half with feet sticking out at the bottom. This form of dress was only "modest" as long as I constantly monitored where my hem might be, not try to move too fast or too freely, and suffer with the heat under a heavy nylon slip lest the sun shine through the fabric. Or, in cold weather, have my bare legs exposed to an icy wind, or wearing heavy tights that constantly poured "too much input" onto half my skin surface.

This very sensible position was regarded as borderline "insanity" by some, suspicion of me being "a man-hater" by others, and never, ever simply assessed on its stated merits. Because no one listened to a word I said on the subject.

I was not conforming. That was all they needed to know.

 

[Kirsty]

The opposite of NTs is NDs. Not ASDs.

 

[clg114]

Let's say a rule is, "When we turn on the fan, it blows cold air." Does logical thought mean we should expect that to always occur?" If past experiences have said sometimes the house fan did not turn on, because of a faulty wire, or that the air conditioning fan in the car by mistake blows out hot air instead on hot days, then it seems not irrational to question the stated rule. Maybe I am using bad logic. I am not sure.

Let's amend the rule to say "When we turn on the fan, it should blow cold air. The rule as it was is not a logical statement. Logical thought tells you that systems can and do fail ,so you do not always get the expected results.

To carry the process a little further, if you know how the system works, logical thought tells you what is most likely the problem and the best way to confirm it. Now that you know what is wrong with it, you use this same thought process it figure out the best way to repair it.

This process goes on and on. It is the only way I am capable thinking. I did not make a conscious decision to be like this, it is just the way that I am. I have not met many NT's have this sort of thought process, but I believe that there are a lot of them. All those professionals out there are not likely to be Aspies.

 

[Dadwith2Autisticsons]

Ok, thanks for explaining. I guess the issue we have with our son Aaron is that although he likes rules, he cannot make exceptions without getting upset. He expects a rule to always be a rule. Like if we say, "Aaron we have to leave the park at 8pm," he expects that to happen. But, there was a day it started raining hard at around 7:50 pm, and he wanted to stay ten more minutes, saying "That was the rule." Maybe this is just his literal side speaking. We do support him for following rules, so we never get upset at him for such. It just is very hard for him to deviate from rules. Sometimes this will work in his favor, and sometimes not.

 

[WereBear]

The opposite of NTs is NDs. Not ASDs.

Thanks, I should have been able to figure that out!

 

[Momo]

NTs drive me up a wall sometimes when I use statistics and reason to try and win an argument, I actually had a friend turn around and tell me I had "no compassion" and "thought about it strangely" when I was debating her once. I think she mocked me as being dumb and bigoted a few times also. People like that make me want to bang my head against a wall.