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Featured Could eliminating the autism diagnosis reduce harm/discrimination?

Discussion in 'General Autism Discussion' started by Past Despiration, Aug 24, 2020.

  1. Past Despiration

    Past Despiration Active Member

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    This is a topic most autistic people (and I am one, basically) seem to really disagree on, but I am going to try to present it respectfully and hope nobody will get angry.

    Right now we have two groups we divide people up into: Autistic and non-autistic or neurotypical.

    The neurotypical group is larger. The autistic group is given a lot of terrible labels like "disorder" and usually portrayed with sweeping generalizations. As far as I can tell, autistics have all kinds of problems, but none of them seem to have 100% of the problems 100% of the time. That's an issue, because it seems like they are treated that way. For example, I was always treated like I had a lot of intellectual disabilities and could not make decisions for myself. Some autistics may have intellectual disability, but I don't. So it's bad to generalize.

    Also, people start to hurt each other as soon as you put them in groups. You could call them "gay and straight" or "Jew and German" or "Black and White" You see where this is going... it always makes the smaller group suffer a lot.


    So what about this idea? What if we just say "Okay, no autism anymore. Now we're all just people. We're all going to be treated like people and nobody deserves to be disrespected or treated like less."


    I KNOW WHAT YOU WILL START SAYING:

    But we then don't help the autistics, because they need help.


    OH BUT WE STILL CAN! EVEN BETTER!


    Now, everyone is a person. So, now we have equality! But if someone has a problem, we just address that problem. If they have a social fear, we address that social fear. If they have no social fear, no social fear therapy. If they have trouble communication we give them communication therapy, but if they do not, we do not give them. We just look at every person, each and every single one and say "Does this person have any problems?"


    See, here's the thing: Don't neurotypical people sometimes have all kinds of problems too? Don't some of them get problems that are sometimes similar to autistics? I know plenty of neurotypicals who had issues like anxiety or substance abuse or even ones you'd normally see in autism, like with adhd or something. Lets help them too. Lets help everyone without any second and first class citizens.

    100% help. Nobody hurt. Nobody ever treated like they're unable to kow how to live their own life


    I think this way doesn't actually leave anyone out. Now, no more expectations. Now Dave can be Dave and Mark can be Mark and Sara can be Sara. We don't have to say "Well Dave is someone we call autistic, and that means he is not allowed in our regular classes"

    That's not necessary. The only people who won't be in regular classes are those who are unable to deal with it and need help, but we do it one at a time, looking for any problems and never telling people "Okay, you're autistic, so that means here's a list of problems you need to have" Well... what if we don't preexpect anything?



    I think this really is the better way because nobody feels inferior and nobody is ganged up into a group to be harmed. I think this is a way that could have avoided me being told I was not any good for higher education or having friends. It could have allowed my family to still treat me well and allow me to make my own decisions. All my rights could have been kept and nobody would need to be cruel.

    And if you say "I'm autistic and I would need help and support" well then the thing is you still get it, but now you're just human and need help and support. Now, your help and support does not need to be 100% the same as every autistic and we can stop forcing people to take help they don't want to get help they do want.


    I think this is the better way, because, if for no reason than it would have stopped me from being treated with extreme cruelty and dismissed as not competent to say. It would have avoided a ton of trauma. I'd have no ptsd. I bet a lot of other people would not do so either.


    So I think it is a thing to consider.


    I am sure other people out there have found that they are worse off because it is a condition that is recognized.

    Think this way: What if there were a way we could switch off everyone's ability to see race in other people. Then, no racism. So that is basically the same thing.
     
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  2. Aspychata

    Aspychata Serenity waves, beachy vibes

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    Get what you are saying. Some of us fall high on the spectrum chart and at that point categorizing where we are helps with state and federal aid which some parents truly need with Sara or John. l lived on a reservation, and kids were required to be on meds if they acted out in class, it was a school mandate. So the system isn't fair. But the schools receive federal funding if they have classifications of *special kids* so they are motivated to identify and segregate this group no matter where they fall in actual ability . So federal funding does increase the school administration's motivation to shove Joey or Sara into special ed classes with little regard for Joey and Sara's outcome. I had no problem taking my daughter out to homeschool her. She had a lot more freedom. She was extremely creative and l made sure to provide her ways to express her indivuality, something severely lacking in our homogenized schools. Don't wish to offend any school teachers here. Good teachers are always a bonus.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2020
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  3. Misery

    Misery Photo-Negative V.I.P Member

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    Thing about it is, most of us get pushed around by people *without* them ever knowing about the autistic label. Or, in many cases, without them even knowing what it MEANS, so even if they did know the label was there, that explanation would bounce right off of them.

    The actual solution would be to have people not act like walking bags of cat turds all the time. That's a pretty tall order though. Too tall, it's very top-heavy, falls over after one step.
     
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  4. WildCat

    WildCat V.I.P Member

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    People can sniff out differences and do what humans like to do without a name to pin it to, so no. You can read here or there about those on the spectrum who got a diagnosis later in their adult years who have had to put up with it from others (which, as I've recently learned and go figure, also includes others on the spectrum and not solely neurotypicals) before they themselves had a name to pin it to.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2020
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  5. Trophonius

    Trophonius Well-Known Member

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    No. People receive discrimination not because they have an autism diagnosis, but because their behavior. Whether they have an official diagnosis or not doesn't matter — people who usually discriminate and cause emotional harm are unaware that the person they're bullying is autistic.

    You said that we divide people in two groups: ASD and NT, but this is not true for several reasons:

    (1) Most people don't even think in those terms when they treat others.

    (2) Regardless of the group we fall into, we musn't forget that these are psychological classifications which only are important in a clinical setting, where professional can use them as a start to evaluate treatments — this is important because many people on the spectrum are not capable of coping with the issues they have without external help, just like people with depression sometime need to take medication and people with anxiety need to take anti-anxiety medication.

    (3) There are many diagnosis different from ASD. The dichotomy ASD-NT is definitely not true.

    It seems to me that you think people treat you different because you are autistic. This can be the case, but it is definitely not the case for many of us, which are simple and plainly treated differently. You think they shouldn't have put you in a special class or whatever, fair enough, but professional take the best decision they can with the information available, and while they can err, they're still taking the best possible choice they can — nowadays we know more about ASD and it's likely that people high on the spectrum won't be put in special ed, but that's because of what we know now and the tools we have to make better decisions — it doesn't change the fact that the principle is the same, and it's not wise to feel bad for not receiving a treatment that was not available back then.
     
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  6. BrokenBoy

    BrokenBoy 戯言使い(Nonsense User)

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    This is nonsense.
     
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  7. SDRSpark

    SDRSpark Well-Known Member V.I.P Member

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    I was told growing up that I was "just different", "lived in my own world", "marched to the beat of a different drum" etc. etc. Basically a whole bunch of stuff that meant I was radically not like the others, but it was celebrated as a good thing. I was placed in gifted classes because it was the 90s and if you had a high IQ (I did) autism wasn't considered. So my high IQ was celebrated. (Of course an ability to solve brain teasers and perform well academically doesn't translate all that well to real life, so once I got out of school, my "giftedness" seemed to vanish into thin air.)

    The problem with all this was, all of the difficulties I had were roundly ignored. I was encouraged to believe that I was just better than all my haters...which may be true, but the issues that it can lead to are clear. Especially when I had a lot of haters. I was never NOT aware that I am not like the others...but I was never allowed to understand why. I was never allowed to understand sensory processing dysfunction, the reason why I got so angry that I would slam doors and punch things just because people were talking to me. If I had understood those things, I could have done something about it. I could have realized that I was getting overwhelmed and removed myself from the situation before I melted down and lashed out.

    For me, a diagnosis first and foremost would have meant access to information. Access to tools to manage and thrive. Access to community. And that was denied to me because I was "too smart", "too high functioning". Even as an adult, the closest I've ever come to a formal diagnosis was a neuropshych telling me "you have traits of Asberger's but you're too high functioning for a diagnosis". Even then, I didn't understand just how significant those traits were because I had adapted by then. By then the main focus of treatment was the fallout from living a life of not knowing.

    "Celebrating differences" is a double edged sword. My differences were always recognized and celebrated - well the good ones were anyway. My intelligence, creativity, attention to detail - these were seen as gifts that could be used and exploited (and resulted in being pushed in a lot of directions that I didn't want to go, because they conveniently come with expectations. I believe this "encouragement" was well intentioned, but man does it ever get old.) My social deficits were ignored or explained away as "the others are the one with the problem".

    Not being given access to understanding of these things has brought me no end of trouble.
     
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  8. Rasputin

    Rasputin ASD / Aspie V.I.P Member

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    Actually, the autism diagnosis can result in discrimation. I was declined on a long term care insurance policy application because of the diagnosis. The insurance agent could not find a single insurance carrier willing to provide long term care insurance because of the diagnosis. I was told by the agent that I could have been insured prior to the diagnosis.

    Therefore this is a valid question that has been raised.
     
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  9. BrokenBoy

    BrokenBoy 戯言使い(Nonsense User)

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    It's still not a good solution.
     
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  10. Nervous Rex

    Nervous Rex High-functioning autistic V.I.P Member

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    What you are asking is for people to stop looking past labels and view each person individually, get to know that person and deal with their strengths and weaknesses individually, giving help where it's genuinely needed.

    That's an admirable, Utopian goal, and I'm sorry, but it's never going to happen.

    People label people. It's a mental shortcut that the vast majority of people do without meaning to or realizing that they're doing it. Getting to know someone in-depth takes time and mental effort. It's far easier to label someone as Christian, Atheist, Democrat, Republican, Black, White, Autistic, etc. and not have to think about it any more.

    If you took away the autism diagnosis, people would just label autistics as weird or with some other disability.

    I don't mean to sound so cynical. Everyone thinks they're a good person. And everyone simplifies the world around them to reduce it to the point that they can get their heads around it. It's just a fact.

    Instead of worrying about how much everyone else gets me or how the world labels me, I've had to be content to know that a few close and trusted people understand me. My parents don't understand me, but that's okay because my wife does. So do a few close friends. For now, that's going to have to be good enough.
     
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  11. Judge

    Judge Well-Known Member

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    From time to time there is always someone philosophically suggesting humanity eschew some of their baser instincts. And usually it sounds in principle like a good idea.

    However such suggestions usually have a common denominator in that it's unrealistic to attempt reprogramming humanity contrary to their own baser instincts. In this instance we're talking about predatory behavior towards anyone in or outside a particular group who seems alien to them in whole or in part. To alter such behavior in the name of some societal "greater good".

    Society can forcefully implement such policies, prosecuting citizens over their own human nature. However it would in no way deter people from how they fundamentally act. It would just roil the social majority, inevitably leading to change of such a policy by either legislation or revolution.

    And apart from human nature, there is still the medical community to consider. Where they would ultimately reserve the right the assign a particular name to a particular physical or neurological condition, regardless of the consequences of any diagnosis in the name of science rather than social politics.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2020
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  12. Past Despiration

    Past Despiration Active Member

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    Okay, maybe it's hopeless. I guess nothing can be done. I hope everyone gets what I am trying to say.

    AS for me, the diagnosis has been really horrible, because it ended up just getting me a ton of patronizing "accommodations" that I neither wanted nor needed, and which I could not get rid of. It got me treated like I could not actually understand myself or make my own life decisions. That wasn't any good.

    Worst part is over time, I started to believe it. I was basically a second class citizen, nad if someone asked me to make a decision, I was so exhausted from being talked down to and told I was inferior (not in so many words, but as much as) that I accepted that and I was treated like a child well into adulthood.

    I hope you can understand, this is no good either. I was told that I was basically going to always have a very low level job and I could never go to college, because I was not capable of such things. Nobody would address me directly on the level.

    In reality, I'm of well above average IQ. Had I not been basically brow-beaten into submission, I could probably have had a somewhat normal growing up. Yeah, different, "Weird" even. That's not as bad as it usually is once an otherwise gifted person gets that tag slapped on them.

    If you didn't have this happen, I guess you live some place way more progressive than me. Let me know, because I might want to move.
     
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  13. Past Despiration

    Past Despiration Active Member

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    I feel like I am going to get in trouble for this, because it goes against a lot of what people say and stand for and want. Okay, here goes:

    For me personally, and probably for others, it would be better if the autism diagnosis was totally non existent like it was in the 1800s versus what happened or is happening. I'm starting to escape it.

    But basically, if I had been never identified, I'd have been the oddball, and I'd have had to deal with some social issues and I think I could have. I think my clumsiness and obsessiveness could probably have been either overcome, or somehow managed. It would have been something I could have made it through life with, just as is, I am sure. I might be "weird' but I'm not even sure weird=bad. But maybe I would be...

    The recognition and diagnosis provided zero help for anything that might have been needing improvement. It did prove disastrous in a lot of ways. I think that autistics in a place like rural China or the Andes or something have it damn lucky.

    Yeah maybe people notice they're oddball. It still wouldn't have been as bad as what I got. Systematic denial of respect and self-determination on all levels, repeated belittlement, zero concern for the pain and trauma of it, dismissal, being barred from the classes and career paths I could have taken.


    This is not better. Maybe it's bad the other way. It's still worse this way.
     
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  14. BrokenBoy

    BrokenBoy 戯言使い(Nonsense User)

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    No it's worst the other way.
     
  15. PastelPetals

    PastelPetals Well-Known Member

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    Nobody asks me if i'm autistic before they bully me. They just do it. Weird people are weird no matter the label. Also if I was not called autistic I would still need help with things. Not naming the issue does not make it disappear.
     
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  16. Past Despiration

    Past Despiration Active Member

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    You kidding? being left alone to deal with being weird is better than a system built from the ground up to deprive you of your rights.


    Yeah, well, again, why is it any better to have a system that names you something that helps make it worse.

    Without a system = you are bullied

    With a system = you are bullied, but also the system takes away your rights.


    I fail to see this as being a better response.

    Weird people are weird. Why not make something good of it? Weird can be funny. Isn't all the best humor weird? isn't Weird Al weird? Isn't it better to be unusual than boring. Weird is definitely okay and not bad.


    It's bad to harm people with a system they can't get out of. You are arguing for putting the bullies in charge.

    At least if you don't have the label, the police will defend you from serious harm. My experience is pretty one sided, and I don't think I am the only one. No "help for the autistic" system has ever helped me. But they make sure I have zero recourse.

    So you are weird? Like I said, weird is okay, but you can still call 9-1-1 if the place is on fire. At least someone puts it out.


    Yeah "Not naming it doesn't make it disapear"

    So why are you saying to make it more powerful? At least leave it weird. At least leave it neutral. Don't turbocharge it. Don't put it in the drivers seat.

    You say to make it autistic. I disagree. You took a bad situation and made it thousands of times worse. At least before you let all the authorities in on it, there was some chance of escape.

    Ruling a person autistic took away my drivers license (literally) so I could not even get away from bullying.

    I'm sorry but you're wrong. You're better off suffering the bad situation than making it worse. It makes it worse. You're talking stories you've read. I'm talking what I've seen.
     
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  17. Past Despiration

    Past Despiration Active Member

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    How about we just agree to something basic, which seems to me to be hard to deny. It's better to be bullied by a couple bullies than to let even more bullies to the fight.

    You're arguing to MAKE SOMETHING WORSE WHEN YOU COULD HAVE AT LEAST LEFT IT NEUTRAL!


    Please, for the love of god, do not MAKE IT WORSE


    The bullies don't go away! They're there. Tolerate them. DON'T INVITE MORE


    YEAH IT WOULD BE BETTER TO HAVE THEM LEAVE. BETTER TO HAVE 2 BULLIES THAN 200!

    MY ENTIRE SCHOOL ADMINISTRATION BERATED ME ABOUT HOW WORTHLESS I WAS EVERY DAY AND I STILL HAD BULLIES> THEY DID NOT LEAVE. STILL THERE. HOW IS THIS BETTER



    WEIRD IS NOT EVEN BAD. LEARN TO LIVE BEING WEIRD. THE BEST STUFF IS ALL WEIRD.


    BEING AUTISTIC CAUSES YOU TO NOT EVEN HAVE BASIC RIGHTS! I COULD NOT EVEN TAKE REGULAR CLASSES! I ASKED REPEATEDLY FOR A BASIC HEARING AND THEY TOLD ME NO! I TRIED TO GO TO ANYONE! I TRIED TO GO TO SOCIAL SERVICES! I ATTEMPTED SUICIDE AND BEGGED A SOCIAL WORKER TO GIVE ME HELP DEALING WITH THE SPECIAL ED DEPARTMENT. I BEGGED A CATHOLIC PRIEST. I BEGGED A JEWISH RABI! I BEGGED ALL KINDS OF PEOPLE!


    CAN'T YOU SEE THIS IS NOT BETTER? IT IS WORSE!

    "WEIRD" is the worst hat happened to you?


    I lost all my property. I could not even have money. They took my bank account. They used to lecture me every day.

    This is worse than weird. Bullies just insult you. It'[s not like it will make you actually cut yourself to get into a hospital for some temporary safety. I had to do that when they put me in an autistic special ed program. IT IS THAT BAD. It is so bad I had to cut myself to get an ambulance crew to come.

    I had to hide all the time. I went to school about half the time it was open for a while, because I knew they would harm me. THIS IS SO MUCH WORSE THAN BEING CALLED WEIRD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    THEY TOOK AWAY MY ABILITY TO APPLY TO JOBS I WANTED! THEY TRIED TO HAVE ME SILENCED! THIS IS..> NOT BETTER

    WHY DO YOU THINK IT IS BETTER TO BE NOT JUST BULLIED BUT ALSO MADE PHYSICALLY UNSAFE AND UNABLE TO MAKE A DECISION? IT IS WORSE
     
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  18. Past Despiration

    Past Despiration Active Member

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    EXPLAIN. EXPLAIN WHY I DESERVE TO LOSE MY BASIC PHYSICAL SAFETY! EXPLAIN WHY I SHOULD LOSE ALL LEGAL RIGHTS! EXPLAIN WHY IT IS BETTER!


    HERE IS YOUR CHANCE! EXPLAIN EXPLAIN! EXPLAIN WHY IT IS BETTER TO BE HURT THAN NEUTRAL

    EXPLAIN WHY IT IS BETTER TO HAVE BULLIES AND A SCHOOL THAT WANTS TO HARM YOU THAN JUST BULLIES

    EXPLAIN WHY BULLIES DESERVE THE POWER

    EXPLAIN WHY YOU DESERVE TO LOOK AND SEE IT CODIFIED IN THE SYSTEM

    EXPOLAIN WHY I DESERVE NO PLACE TO RUN!

    EXPLAIN!

    HERE'S YOUR CHANCE
     
  19. Past Despiration

    Past Despiration Active Member

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    Yeah, but they did before they put you in a place you could not even fight back, right?


    Before autism, the bullies had no offical power. They could taunt you and ruin playground, but that was it, rigth?

    Did they have the power to TAKE YOU OUT OF CLASS AND RUIN YOUR EDUCATION? DID THEY HAVE THE POWER TO FOLLOW YOU HOME AND TAKE YOU AWAY FROM MOM AND DAD?

    YOU MADE IT WORSE

    BULLIES ARE NOT WORSE THAN A 24/7 SYSTEM OF CONSTANT DEPRIVATION OF BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS AND DECENCIES! THAT IS WHAT IT GETS YOU.

    DO YOU GET THAT I KNOW HOW THIS WORKS? I HAD A WOMAN COME BACK TO MY HOUSE WITH ME AND LECTURE MY PARENTS ABOUT HOW MUCH I COULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO JUST BE A PERSON! HOW BAD IS THAT? You think bullies are bad? At least bullies end at the end of the school day. THEY KICKED ME OUT OF CLASS AND I COULD NOT EVEN GO HOME TO BE SAFE. THEY MADE EVERY PLACE I WENT UNSAFE

    TRY TO GET WHAT HAPPENS> THEY ROPE YOUR MOM AND DAD IN. THEY ROPE THEM ALL IN. THEY START A SYSTEM TO SHUT YOU UP IF YOU TRY TO TALK TO A COUNCILOR OR THE POLICE! THEY TRY TO STOP YOU FROM EVEN SEEING A PERSON IF YOU ARE PHYSICALLY UNSAFE

    ONCE THEY HAVE AUTISM ON YOUR RECORD NOBODY CAN EVER KEEP YOUR BODY SAFE FROM INTRUSION AGAIN! I KNOW BECAUSE IT HAPPEND

    DON"T YOU GET IT? BULLIES ARE NOT THE WORST THING! A WHOLE ORGANIZED SYSTEM THAT TAKES AWAY ALL YOUR AUTONOMY IS WORSE.

    DEAL WITH BULLIES OR SEE THE WORSE, AND THE WORSE IS A CONCENTRATION CAMP. THEY WILL MAKE SURE YOU HAVE NOTHING! THAT IS HOW "AUTISM SERVICES" WORKS> YOU HAVE ZERO SAY. THEY JUST HURT YOU FROM BOTH ISNDE AND OUTSIDE! I KNOW! I WAS THERE! YOU DO NOT WANT IT! YOU WILL BEG FOR BULLIES BACK!
     
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  20. Past Despiration

    Past Despiration Active Member

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    NOT JUST NOT NAMING THE ISSUE> READ

    NOT GIVING THE COPS AND THE SCHOOLS POWER TO HURT YOU! JUST NOT GIVING THEM POWER TO HURT YOU! SIMPLE AS THAT!


    BULLIES ARE NOT AS BAD AS BULLIES IN THE SCHOOL SYSTEM!


    YOU THINK BULLIES ARE BAD? HOW ABOUT TRY BULLIES NOT EVEN DARKNESS OR TIME CAN ESCAPE! WHY WOULD YOU WANT THAT? DO YOU THINK THE BULLIES GO AWAY WHEN THE SCHOOL STARTS MAKING YOU CRY AND WON'T EVEN LET YOU GO TO THE BATHROOM TO LET THE TEARS OUT?


    DO YOU GET IT? BULLIES NAME CALL. THAT'S JUST SOUND. THAT'S JUST WORD. I KNOW HOW BAD IT IS TO HAVE THE AUTISTIC SCHOOL SERVICE PEOPLE THREATEN YOU IF YOU RUN AWAY, BECAUSE THE WOODS LOOKS LIKE THE ONE PLACE YOU CAN GET AWAY FROM THEM! THEY DO NOT JUST INSULT YOU!

    DON'T YOU GET IT? INSULTING WORDS SUCK, BUT THEY'RE NOT THE WORST THEY CAN DO TO YOU! IF YOU THINK IT IS THE WORST YOU NEED TO BE IN AN AUTISTIC PROGRAM AT A SCHOOL THEY WILL HURT YOU EVERY WYA POSSIBLE

    YES. THAT INCLUDES SEXUAL ASSAULT. THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU GET LABELED AUTISTIC BECAUSE THE WORD LETS THE LAW DISMISS YOU. NO JUDGE. NO ABILITY TO DEFEND.

    Autistics get raped a lot to begin with, but my friend was raped, and bcause they identified as autistic they would not help her.

    THIS IS WHAT AUTISM IN SCHOOL GETS YOU! THEY TREAT YOU TEN TIMES WORSE BECAUSE NOW THE LAW IS ON THEIR SIDE. You get declared autistic, you just can't call for help. They touch you all the tim. I know because it's not hypothetical.

    Why you all messing with this?

    DECLARED AUTISTIC AND YOU CAN'T EVEN TAKE IT TO COURT!


    IT'S NOT GOOD

    WEIRD IS BETTER THAN BEING TORTURED WITH THIS! BE WEIRD! EMBRACE WEIRDITY! WHAT YOU SUGGEST IS CHILDREN BEING BERATED AND HURT EVERY SINGE DAY! LET THEM HAVE SOME WEIRDNES! IT'S BETTER THAN HRUTING THEM ALL THE TIME!
     
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