Autism and Gut Flora

[Pinkie B]

Autism symptoms replicated in mice after faecal transplants

Just saw this article in the Guardian this morning. It says that an autistic fecal transplant can cause autistic symptoms in otherwise non-autistic mice. There is anecdotal evidence that it can reduce symptoms in people when transplanted in the reverse direction (NT --> Autism).

I don't know how I feel about this. I like my brain how it is, most of the time, and don't want to be "cured," but it would be nice if I could be freed of some of its hangups like the anxiety.

 

[Joshua the Writer]

Same here. I kinda hate this kinda stuff.

 

[Kevin1968]

Psychologists have trouble reliably diagnosing autism in people but these people can diagnose it in mice?

Also if there were specific microbes that "caused" autism then surely it would have been observed that giving large doses of antibiotics for infections had inadvertently "cured" autism as well as the targeted infection??

 

[Fridgemagnetman]

I guess they're saying we're full of it.

 

[Fino]

TL;DR

Taurine and 5 aminovaleric acid helped autistic mice. Does that mean it'll help people? Who knows.

 

[Streetwise]

Autism symptoms replicated in mice after faecal transplants

Just saw this article in the Guardian this morning. It says that an autistic fecal transplant can cause autistic symptoms in otherwise non-autistic mice. There is anecdotal evidence that it can reduce symptoms in people when transplanted in the reverse direction (NT --> Autism).

I don't know how I feel about this. I like my brain how it is, most of the time, and don't want to be "cured," but it would be nice if I could be freed of some of its hangups like the anxiety.

as I am not a mouse I cannot possibly see how this research could apply to me

 

[SusanLR]

as I am not a mouse I cannot possibly see how this research could apply to me

Testing on rats and mice is almost always where all things in the medical industry start.

 

[Progster]

Psychologists have trouble reliably diagnosing autism in people but these people can diagnose it in mice?

Also if there were specific microbes that "caused" autism then surely it would have been observed that giving large doses of antibiotics for infections had inadvertently "cured" autism as well as the targeted infection??

My thoughts precisely. I'm on antibiotics right now for an infection, and yep, symptoms of autism all still there.

 

[Pinkie B]

Psychologists have trouble reliably diagnosing autism in people but these people can diagnose it in mice?

Also if there were specific microbes that "caused" autism then surely it would have been observed that giving large doses of antibiotics for infections had inadvertently "cured" autism as well as the targeted infection??

That was the same thing I was wondering today. Supposedly the downside of antibiotics is that it wipes out your entire gut flora along with everything else, so you'd think that an autistic and an NT post antibiotics would...? Anyway, yeah, seems a little far fetched.

I guess they're saying we're full of it.

POOP JOKE! SO MANY LOLz!

TL;DR

Taurine and 5 aminovaleric acid helped autistic mice. Does that mean it'll help people? Who knows.

Yeah, I'm also skeptical of the mouse-human connect. I know it's standard practice to start experimenting on poor hapless mice, and then murder and puree them when you're done (interesting fact you can never unlearn: pressure cooked lab rat smells like chicken, but wrong), but there is just so much that is different and with mental/emotional issues the divide is even bigger.

 

[Streetwise]

Testing on rats and mice is almost always where all things in the medical industry start.

I am acknowledging a lot of bio chemists who don't believe in vivisection

 

[Gracey]

...
then murder and puree them when you're done ...

Anyone know where they go from there? The pureed meeces?




"... Mice were less sociable, less vocal ...



Anyone else suspect the procedure and subject matter may have contributed somewhat?

I'm sure it would shut me up too.

 

[tlc]

I've had my guts cleaned out more than once for surgery and other procedures, and no change in my brain. Same for the years I spent when they were stopped up for a month or two at a time.

 

[Pats]

You know, it bothers me that there's someone out there, who's been to college, comes up with the idea of transferring fecal matter. All I can say is "Oh my goodness".

Actually if someone tried to put someone else's poop in me, I'd probably never speak or socialize again, either.

 

[Kevin1968]

There are however microbes known to affect behaviour in mice, but they directly affect the brain not the gut.

Parasite makes mice lose fear of cats permanently

 

[Tom]

I'd call it interesting, but in a very cautious way.

It is hard to reconcile it with two other lines of research which have supposed to find multiple genetic signatures of autism and physiological differences in brain structures.

Also the human study it references involved a small number of children displaying severe symptoms and while the changes in the gut bacteria where technically measurable the measure of the children's symptoms was done by survey of the parents observations which is subjective and at the two year mark in particular potentially due to other/natural causes.

I do not rule out its potential as a therapy, if it in fact reduces symptoms, but would like to see what subject adults in studies say about symptoms or cognitive changes.

 

[Pats]

So I if I'm going to look at this on a serious note - once I get past the transplanting fecal part - why didn't they just transplant the appendix, since that's what holds the gut flora and replenishes the gut after a cleansing or antibiotics? Actually, I still didn't get past the transplanting, did I?

 

[nowwhat]

You lost me at "fecal transplant".

 

[Misery]

Oh no... not the gut flora thing again. Ugh.

I dunno how many of you have been to WrongPlanet, but.... well, I wont drop any names here, but certain individuals over there would never shut up about this topic and how much of a "cure" there was in it. For years now, I think. It's been an ongoing thing over there for a LONG time.

They killed that horse, beat it over and over, and when it was a mere puddle of ooze on the pavement, they cloned it 10 times and killed those. I hear they're still beating the dead clones.

Anyway, even if I hadnt already been tired of hearing about the OMG PERFECT CURE, REALLY GUYS IT'LL WORK IF YOU TRY IT, IT'S ALL ABOUT THE GUT, HERE'S 800 PAGES OF NOT EVIDENCE, I'M RIGHT BECAUSE I KNOW I'M RIGHT, I still would have immediately distrusted the whole thing upon reading the words "autistic fecal transplant". That had not previously been part of the equation as far as I'd heard.

There are so very, very many things wrong with those three words being together. Some very... unpleasant mental images. I think I need an exorcism here.



....No seriously though, I'd been REALLY tired of that bloody arguement over on that forum. Talk about pushy...

 

[Gracey]

...but would like to see what subject adults in studies say about symptoms or cognitive changes.

My OCD swoons at the very idea.
(germs)
'Excuse me !?... You want to do what ?!!'
Panic, panic, dead faint.


On finishing baulking and wretching at the image of another adults fecal matter anywhere near me,

I'm not too closed to the idea of a healthy functioning gut having positive effects on a person as a whole.
(but don't know enough to link it to and therefore understand how gut flora amplifies characteristics of asd, if indeed it does)

 

[shysnail]

I really hate this kind of thing. I particularly hate that the Guardian publishes stuff like this, even when it's otherwise so ~progressive~ and often has disabled people writing about issues affecting disabled people (Which is great. More of this, please). But when it's autism, nope, it's just some guy talking about autism "symptoms" and how to cure them with poop. I know he's just reporting on this study that happened totally independent of the newspaper, but the way he phrases stuff throughout really rubs me up the wrong way. It frustrates me that no autistic person was asked for their input in this article, too, so the basic thing is just "Do fecal transplants work to cure that awful illness, autism? We don't know, but fingers crossed!"

Anyway, that was my mini rant about the newspaper and journalist. I'm looking forward to hearing in the future how Yakult will cure us all and make us into the normies we were meant to be.