Asperger’s or bad person

[Tom]

It really depends on the specific event to evaluate. I don't believe you can generalize in this area.

At most, when looking at the event, you should consider the autism and if it was a factor.

 

[Levitator]

The full report is here, a downloadable PDF link at the bottom of the page linked below:

Neurodiversity in the criminal justice system: A review of evidence - His Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire & Rescue Services

An independent review of neurodiversity in the criminal justice system, commissioned by the Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice.

hmicfrs.justiceinspectorates.gov.uk

Ed

I don't even care to bother. There are similar studies by race, and the classic and highly justified retort is that if some minority has a greater prevalence in prison, there's a great likelihood that it's because they are held to different or unfair standards, You will never unconfound that because it's a question of the integrity of the very system that defines what justice is. Spoiler: it's corrupt. I've witnessed it firsthand. Now, let's drop this topic.

 

[Aspychata]

It's also been proven that autism can be mistaken for other diagnoses. So there are no studies on how many people in the criminal justice system are misdiagnosed. And finally, how many ND prisoners are there for being wrongfully incarcerated, or were taken advantage of due to their naivety. I was wrongfully accused and preyed upon when younger, and l am extremely cautious now who l allow near me.

 

[Aspychata]

@Levitator - you are perfectly welcomed to not respond to this particular post. But please refrain from telling others what to do. Thank you.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

"One of the challenges has been the breadth of the term ‘neurodiversity’ which covers so many different conditions."

"Neurodiversity is an undeniably complex area. There is no universally accepted definition, the range of conditions potentially falling under the banner is broad and their effects are wide-ranging. Comorbidity adds further complexity. This means that it is difficult to be sure about the numbers or proportions of neurodivergent people within the criminal justice system (CJS), or to what extent they are over-represented. However, based on the evidence provided to this review, it seems that perhaps half of those entering prison could reasonably be expected to have some form of neurodivergent condition which impacts their ability to engage."


Ed

Yes. Agree. Psychopaths and sociopaths are also neurodiverse, and disproportionately contribute to the population within the prison system. Autistics are just as likely to come in contact with the criminal justice system as the general population, but as some researchers have discovered it is more likely that there are contributing factors such as social naiveté, misunderstanding of social situations, lack of understanding of the rules, and obsessional interests.

A Systematic Review of Autistic People and the Criminal Justice System: An Update of King and Murphy (2014)

The purpose of this paper was to determine whether recommendations made by King & Murphy (Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders 44:2717–2733, 2014) in their review of the evidence on autistic people in contact with the criminal ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Levitator]

It's also been proven that autism can be mistaken for other diagnoses. So there are no studies on how many people in the criminal justice system are misdiagnosed. And finally, how many ND prisoners are there for being wrongfully incarcerated, or were taken advantage of due to their naivety. I was wrongfully accused and preyed upon when younger, and l am extremely cautious now who l allow near me.

People know they do wrong. They won't tell you to your face what the problem is, and they play dumb, and then they play you.

 

[Levitator]

@Levitator - you are perfectly welcomed to not respond to this particular post. But please refrain from telling others what to do. Thank you.

Ok, I won't tell you to stop enabling a destructive, harmful, and discriminatory discussion. I won't even mention it.

 

[Aspychata]

@Levitator , we have moderators on duty 24/7. They monitor and maintain the decorum of this forum and have been doing this for quite a few years. This forum has been around for quite some time.

 

[AprilR]

I don't believe autism or aspergers make someone an inherently "bad" or "good" person.

It is weird to me that people associate autism with psychopathy or lack of empathy. Where i live it is the opposite. Autistic people as well as people with other developmental disabilities are seen as "innocent" and " naturally sinless" I am not sure i agree with this either though.

I don't think having a mental or developmental" condition" makes someone prone to evil or goodness period. Behavior or the ability to choose between good and evil makes people good or evil, not some natural "predisposition" Thinking otherwise is inhumane and overly fatalistic i think

 

[Hypnalis]

@Raggamuffin

.Thanks for the link. It looks like it will be very useful, so that's a definite plus.

So far I don't like the methodology though /sigh.

 

[Raggamuffin]

I was arrested once, and interviewed by detectives. I answered "no comment" to all their questions. But they judged me based on how I looked and tried to associate me to a group of people. The also arrested a friend of a friend at the time I was arrested. They found a wrap of ketamine on him. Police raided his parents house (who he lived with) whilst we were in custody.
When I left the police station, the detectives were waiting by the front door and as I walked past they joked to each other "I've never tried ketamine before, maybe we should try it at the Christmas party."

Very unnerving experience. To be honest, the 2 policemen who arrested me were literally a good cop/bad cop duo. One seemed fair and pleasant, but the other one acted like he had a chip on his shoulder and arrested the 2 of us, and left 2 car loads of people by the side of the road in the middle of nowhere at 2am, including 3 teenage girls. They had to walk for 3+ hours along roads with no pavements to get back to the city.

So, whilst there might be reports and claims of patterns in who gets imprisoned, I'd suggest there's also a pattern in types of people who seek out power, and a good amount of them don't seem like the sort of people who should be allowed such responsibilities.

Ed

 

[JJ19]

@JJ19 always remember that as a group, we have the same propensity to demonstrate positive, negative, and neutral behaviors (as @VictorR said above). Thinking about the ways that Asperger's symptoms may have contributed to your past behavior may be helpful, but it is not a simple explanation. Every person on the spectrum will think and act differently depending on their life experience, their worldview, their culture, supports available to them, and so many other things. There is no specific correlation between autism and bad behavior and the former should never be used as a simple explanation for the latter.

I think that a more important consideration of your Asperger's at this point is how to move forward. From several different threads, it seems that you are understanding what sort of behaviors and habits you have that you want to change. Understanding yourself better, including how you experience autism, could help you to set a path forward that will allow you to process and express intense emotions (loneliness, anxiety, anger, etc.) and maintain healthy boundaries (create healthy relationships in your life).

For example, some of us here have realized that in order to fully understand and process our emotions, we need a good amount of time each day in a calm and quiet environment away from sensory and social stressors. For my part, without this, I can become unduly irritated, confused, impulsive, and resentful. If I do not get my quiet time, I do not function well and sometimes make choices that I wish I didn't.

It really sounds like you are looking for change and I think you can start that process right here by hearing various stories from others with autism and how they have dealt with some of their own challenges. Look to autism as a small detail that can help you set a course forward rather than something that will forcibly determine how you will behave.

I've got zero doubt people with Asperger's are capable of acting terribly and it not being related to their Asperger's. And I am cautious about some being able to use labels as convenient excuses at times. I have seen people do such things. But my query here is presumably with all the difficulties that people with Asperger's have it is not inconceivable that such limitations may result in actions that are bad. It may not be maliciously driven but presumably there can be instances of it happening. I don't consider myself a bad person. I have however made bad errors in judgment and done bad things throughout my life. Some of these have been done by me in bad phases of my life and I know there were consciously bad decisions which I can't complain about. That is about accepting responsibility and atonement and all that stuff. But there are things that no matter how much I analyse I genuinely can't see a thread of driving motivation force and I am very confused about how I could have ever have made such decisions. Those are the ones I am querying.

 

[JJ19]

Firstly. There are a few things you need to do:

1. Consider other people's situations more carefully, before assuming thier stated condition is wholly the cause. Because people can use thier condition as an excuse to get away with anything, when they may actually have a psychological reason, in their upbringing, for doing the acts they do. Point being, having aspergers, high functioning autism, full blown autism, or something in between has nothing to do with being a criminal.

2. NO ONE is automatically bad for having ASD or any other condition. If anyone tells you otherwise, they are bullies and generally incorrect. Either out of ignorance and/or out of fear of your uniqueness. It is as @VictorR said. Everyone has the capacity for doing good or evil things. No one is excluded from this fact.

3. Self-blame and loathing are a heck of a drug. We NDs are very prone to doing this to ourselves because of how exclusionary the world around us can feel. But no one, YOU OR ANYONE, with ASD is lesser for having it.

Secondly. I feel you are in a similar boat to me. Wanting to blame yourself for things that are and aren't in your control. You can change the things that are in your control for the better:

Like your approach to certain situations, how you handle yourself in public, how you handle yourself around people, how you face your emotions, how you face your intrusive/negative thoughts, etc.

But you cannot change the things that are not in your control:

Like how people handle themselves, how they react your words and/or you in general, how socail structures function, how rules are enforced, etc.

The game of life is just that. It about charting the best course to avoid unnessissary obstacles, but also finding a way to breakdown and overcome the obstacles that halt our own progress in life. Not all obstacles are going to be easy to overcome, but they can be still overcome. And never set yourself short because of self-belief and the harmful words of others.

I may be partly repeating myself in another response. I am not trying to use labels for excuses. I am aware of accepting responsibility, and I am aware that I have consciously done bad things which were nothing to do with Asperger's, others I am not so sure on and it is less clear. I am not looking for excuses, just looking for the driving forces and was curious if certain traits from Asperger's could lead to bad things being done not out of malice but not fully realising consequences or thinking it wasn't an issue.

I agree with blaming myself. I do enjoy it, and it is my natural state, sometimes it's justified, sometimes it isn't. It would be very helpful if I could differentiate between the two.

 

[Rodafina]

I am not looking for excuses, just looking for the driving forces and was curious if certain traits from Asperger's could lead to bad things being done not out of malice but not fully realising consequences or thinking it wasn't an issue.

Sounds like you have to really understand how you experience Asperger's. I understand what you are saying, but we are all different and some of us will struggle with certain situations where other autistic folks wouldn't. Not to mention the fact that plenty of neurotypical people could have traits that create a situation where they don't fully realize the consequences or don't think something is an issue.

My point is, no matter what, this is going to come down to introspection and gaining more understanding of what specific autistic traits you have and which ones you don't.

 

[JJ19]

I am a bit brain dead from responding and have covered this in more detail in some of my responses to other people's posts. To clarify I was not saying people with Asperger's are inherently bad people. Just trying to clearly define the boundaries of when certain mistakes and errors may have been caused by or at least influenced by others characteristics of ASD. Not looking to use labels as excuses, just looking to clearly analyse behaviour.

 

[ChrisCRISPR]

See my reply to your other post about guilt: Guilt complex

With autism comes difficulty learning social rules or even perceiving that a social framework exists. Without that understanding, society can be like a minefield. Others know where the mines are, but you don't.

I have had a lot of social interactions blow up in my face. Honestly, the worst part isn't the mistake itself - it's realizing on my own, hours, days, or months later, that what I did or said was rude, insulting, or broke some social rule. My first reaction is to think I am bad, that I blew it, and that this is a permanent bad mark on me. But that doesn't help me at all. The best thing I can do is learn from the experience and do better next time.

It turns out that's what everyone does. There is no social setting in which everyone is perfect. There is no job where everyone is perfect. There is no relationship where everyone is perfect. We all - NTs and NDs alike - make mistakes and have to learn from them.

To dwell on our mistakes is hell. To learn from our mistakes is to progress toward heaven.

I really needed to hear these words thank you Rex

 

[Captain Jigglypuff]

Everyone is capable of doing good or bad things. Having autism has nothing to do with any of it.

 

[Levitator]

I've encountered people who do the equivalent of hiding in hospital beds so that they can ambush and medically violate people when they need help and at their most vulnerable, and you can look somewhere in there for the definition of "bad person".

 

[Aspychata]

Perhaps we being on the spectrum, aren't great at picking up social norms, so we can overstep boundaries, and make mistakes, most of the time, not serious, but stupid and awkward things. However, you can cross the line and end up doing perfectly stupid things that might fall in the criminally wrong area. That's why l believe autistic young people need excellent support until they are out handling things on their own, and feel comfortable socially. I struggled with a level of naivete and immaturity, which was troublesome and time-consuming for me. I left my home at 17, because of my stupid stepfather. So l was forced to grow up quickly. I feel l can be emotionally stupid, so l work on that imperfection of myself. I work of seeing humor to lighten my load. Raising my daughter, l strived to always have other children over, so she had a lot of exposure to others because l stayed home to also homeschool her.