Are these types of incidents or bad experiences in social situations, not unusual or not unheard of for people with autism, especially guys, men?

[Steelbookcollector217]

While this has never happend to me, i've never gotten thrown that label or been accused of this, i have unfortuneately, felt i have made people or women uncomfortable in social situations when socializing with them, but it never became a legal matter or legal issue, for example, there have been times in my life where people would at first welcome me in their presence in the beginning, they enjoyed my company when around me or when i'm with them, but then sometime later, i get the vibe or feeling from them that they are getting annoyed and bothered by my presence, the way i can tell is, they no longer smile when i'm with them or they have a frowned look on their face that gives the vibe, feeling, that i'm not welcome around them anymore, after that, i just well no longer try to be around them since i don't want to make the situation worse, but it still hurts because it makes me and i'm sure other people with autism or don't do well socially, it causes them to wonder or think "what did i do wrong to annoy or bother them?"

Here is what i'm getting at, the main topic of this discussion, at least 3 guys, men, i've spoken to who have autism, they told me that have been labeled a creepy stalker by women or people, or they have been accused of stalking, even though these guys, men, never meant any harm, never wanted to hurt anyone, and they never layed a finger on these women or people.

One of these guys, i feel sorry for him, he tells me he has high functioning autism, but it won't surprise me if its worse than that, its difficult for me to assess or judge what he did wrong socially since i wasn't there, didn't witness any part of it, but he told me back when he was in college, a girl filed a restraining order against him, and some of her guy friends did the same thing.

He got labeled a creepy stalker and lots of people at the college called him that, he ended up getting expelled as well.

I can't help but feel very sorry for him because of that traumatic experience, of course some people will say that his parents failed him in regards to social skills, its not just autism.

It won't surprise me if incidents like these in social situations are not unheard of for people with autism, especially guys, men, since reading and understanding social cues is the main struggle for people with autism, so that will make people very clumsy in social situations and cause them to rub people the wrong way and they are not aware of it.

But back to the main topic, are incidents like this not unheard of for guys, men, with autism? has this ever happend to any guys, men, you know of with autism?

 

[AspieChris]

It’s incredibly common.

Take eye contact, for instance. When you meet someone for the first time, it is polite to make direct eye contact and maybe shake their hand while saying “nice to meet you”. Sitting at dinner in a noisy restaurant and you’d like to say something to that person, you get their attention somehow and solidify the intent to talk by maintaining eye contact for a ‘reasonable’ length of time……

Imagine now that this person is a woman who had a gigantic mole on her nose with 3 large black hairs sticking out of it. It’s her choice to not cover it in makeup. Also her choice to let the hairs grow. You may think that the mole has no effect on the fact that she is very attractive, but social standards dictate that you can NOT mention it….. not even to ask a legitimate question (skin cancer?)

Without realizing it you don’t even notice you keep staring at her nose from the opposite side of the table throughout the entire meal. But to her…… some creep she just met kept staring into her eyes all night during dinner as if he’s trying to hypnotize her into following him back to his dungeon. You’re a nice guy but all she sees is a stalker.

—————-

The fact is that if I met myself before I had learned these rules of social contact, I might have been creeped out too. I have been accused of being all manner of weird, and most of it is disproved after people get go know me. Fortunately I have got most of it figured out, the biggest one being to shut up and don’t touch anything. That way it’s hard to get blamed for something I didn’t do.

 

[DavidJSNSW]

I try to think what it would be like to have a man (or woman for that matter) look at me without saying anything for some time. I'd be worried I had some sort of blemish on my face, that I look ridiculous, or perhaps they were out to get me. It's pretty much automatic that we look at someone who has just come in the room or just walked by. But a glance is rather different from a prolonged stare.

It is totally unjust that men get labelled stalkers when they are not. However, it is best to avoid having your motives and actions misconstrued. That is easier said than done and I've learned from hard experience. Part of that experience involves trying to get in someone else's shoes as I mentioned.

 

[Hypnalis]

This isn't a simple topic.

Something that happened to me last summer (not an ASD - read it first):

I was waiting for a bus at a busy location, and observed a middle-aged man (who I'd noticed before as displaying unusual behavior) "interacting" with a young woman (I'd guess 18-22) this way: she was turned away from him; he was about 1.5 meters away, bent forward, and was looking at her legs or butt. So definitely unacceptable, but no contact, and not directly threatening.

I didn't know either of them, but told the guy (politely, because "why not?") that he should move back. So we had a short discussion, and it was clear he had no idea he was (a) probably scaring her, and (b) risking a kinetic response if e.g. her boyfriend turned up.

So I persuaded him to move away, she got on her bus and disappeared.

As it happened we got on the same bus so we talked a little. I confirmed he's reasonably intelligent, but had no idea he was behaving badly. Otherwise he seemed a nice enough, good hearted person.

I'm confident he wasn't ASD. To me he profiled as schizophrenic due to the "absolutely no personal boundaries" behavior I saw quite many times during or 20-minute relationship. But my experienced in that is very limited, so only the "almost certainly not ASD" part is most relevant.

But the question:
Should he have learned better at some point? Should he have been taught to avoid more extreme expressions of his lack of boundaries? (given where I live, and where we met, he had to be in some kind of non-institutional care).

I think the individual (within their capacity) and society, in the form of medical care (yes I know it's terrible in the US) should help people with these things so they don't act unreasonably towards other people.

If there's any blame it's shared between the "agent of discomfort"; in the case of young people, their parents; society, to the extent it controls people and their behavior; any involved institutions like Universities, and the victims (who have multiple options (i.e. don't have to treat it as criminal, but can't "own" sanction or remediation).

There's no magic wand of course, but an observation: We have socialized medicine here. it's not perfect, but it's quite good at support "marginal" people in society. Which is much cheaper than institutionalizing them, and much better for the individuals.
It's not perfect of course, as my example demonstrates, but we're also potentially capable of training people to "act normally". Here there's a gap because it doesn't seem to have crossed anyone's mind to actually do this, at least for ASDs (I'd know).

We can certainly learn stuff like this. And how hard/expensive would it be to develop a course to teach HFA's how to avoid behaving unreasonably? Not free of course (standardized classes take 500+ hours of work per classroom hour, and this kind would be more), but not multiple USD millions either.

 

[Judge]

This isn't a simple topic.

Something that happened to me last summer (not an ASD - read it first):

I was waiting for a bus at a busy location, and observed a middle-aged man (who I'd noticed before as displaying unusual behavior) "interacting" with a young woman (I'd guess 18-22) this way: she was turned away from him; he was about 1.5 meters away, bent forward, and was looking at her legs or butt. So definitely unacceptable, but no contact, and not directly threatening.

I didn't know either of them, but told the guy (politely, because "why not?") that he should move back. So we had a short discussion, and it was clear he had no idea he was (a) probably scaring her, and (b) risking a kinetic response if e.g. her boyfriend turned up.

So I persuaded him to move away, she got on her bus and disappeared.

As it happened we got on the same bus so we talked a little. I confirmed he's reasonably intelligent, but had no idea he was behaving badly. Otherwise he seemed a nice enough, good hearted person.

I'm confident he wasn't ASD. To me he profiled as schizophrenic due to the "absolutely no personal boundaries" behavior I saw quite many times during or 20-minute relationship. But my experienced in that is very limited, so only the "almost certainly not ASD" part is most relevant.

But the question:
Should he have learned better at some point? Should he have been taught to avoid more extreme expressions of his lack of boundaries? (given where I live, and where we met, he had to be in some kind of non-institutional care).

I think the individual (within their capacity) and society, in the form of medical care (yes I know it's terrible in the US) should help people with these things so they don't act unreasonably towards other people.

If there's any blame it's shared between the "agent of discomfort"; in the case of young people, their parents; society, to the extent it controls people and their behavior; any involved institutions like Universities, and the victims (who have multiple options (i.e. don't have to treat it as criminal, but can't "own" sanction or remediation).

There's no magic wand of course, but an observation: We have socialized medicine here. it's not perfect, but it's quite good at support "marginal" people in society. Which is much cheaper than institutionalizing them, and much better for the individuals.
It's not perfect of course, as my example demonstrates, but we're also potentially capable of training people to "act normally". Here there's a gap because it doesn't seem to have crossed anyone's mind to actually do this, at least for ASDs (I'd know).

We can certainly learn stuff like this. And how hard/expensive would it be to develop a course to teach HFA's how to avoid behaving unreasonably? Not free of course (standardized classes take 500+ hours of work per classroom hour, and this kind would be more), but not multiple USD millions either.

Stands to reason. Particularly after reading about Cognitive Remediation and Social Cognition pertinent to both Schizophrenia and Autism Spectrum Disorder. There does appear to be a medical path for considerations of such treatment to help people socially.

Nonsocial and social cognition in schizophrenia: current evidence and future directions

Cognitive impairment in schizophrenia involves a broad array of nonsocial and social cognitive domains. It is a core feature of the illness, and one with substantial implications for treatment and prognosis. Our understanding of the causes, consequences ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Cognitive Remediation Interventions in Autism Spectrum Condition: A Systematic Review

Autism spectrum condition (ASC) is a lifelong neurodevelopmental condition characterized by difficulties in social cognition and heterogeneity of executive function which are suggested to be underpinned by neurobiological, prenatal and genetic factors. ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Social Cognition and the World Around Us

Social cognition is an important topic within social psychology focused on how we store, process, and use information about other people.

www.verywellmind.com

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

Society has been changing over the last few years, how men and women relate has really changed. becoming somewhat chaotic.

 

[Jumpinbare]

Never had restraining order, or anyone telling me I'm creepy, or heard someone said that. But enough people over the years have broken off conversations and left rooms when I enter, or in other circumstances have suddenly realized they need to leave when I show up. It doesn't take too long to see the pattern.

 

[Tom]

Some people are creepy.

Some just appear creepy, but really aren't.

Since difficulty with social interactions is one of the most common symtoms of autism, it's a pretty safe guess that the second case will happen at a higher rate then is typical.

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

I guess if your attractive enough, the creep factor gets overlooked.

 

[Shevek]

My ex only took about a day of silent stewing to decide that anything she suspected about anyone was true. After that, contrary evidence couldn't do much but get her to assume that something else was hidden there. If I did get her calmed down, she was quite disoriented, and would pick a new fight somewhere within three days. Anything could set her off, like someone with a stiff elbow inadvertently holding their hand "wrong."
We have had generations of almost exclusively negative messages about men, to the point that even in family court we are treated as guilty until proven innocent, even if proof is impossible on either side. If you really want to get into how that happened, I've written volumes.

 

[Neri]

I guess if your attractive enough, the creep factor gets overlooked.

Nope. My guy friend is autistic, very attractive and has still been accused of being a creeper, when he never is. Usually by other men who are envious of his rapport (innocent rapport, I might add) with women, even very young women.

But, he also had an ex, a very dishonest and personality disordered ex (I know this because I know her, she has assaulted me and she is a very anti social and duplicitous woman) who cooked up a stalker charge for him, at one stage. She buttered up another guy. to false witness in court. This other guy, on seeing it was my guy, in court, said "Oh, I didn't know it was you" but still testified against him.

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

Nope. My guy friend is autistic, very attractive and has still been accused of being a creeper, when he never is. Usually by other men who are envious of his rapport (innocent rapport, I might add) with women, even very young women.

But, he also had an ex, a very dishonest and personality disordered ex (I know this because I know her, she has assaulted me and she is a very anti social and duplicitous woman) who cooked up a stalker charge for him, at one stage. She buttered up another guy. to false witness in court. This other guy, on seeing it was my guy. In court, said "Oh, I didn't know it was you" but still testified against him.

Unfortunate we make good mates abhor lying. must of really bothered him.

 

[Neri]

Unfortunate we make good mates abhor lying. must of really bothered him.

Yes. I might add that she is the mother of his two boys. She has done other very horrible things to him, again and again. She is who he won custody against, which took a long time of him being through absolute hell over.

Part of how we work so well is our extreme honesty bias. That doesn't stop other people accusing us otherwise though.

Unfortunately, plenty of people (well probably all of us at some point, at least) project our qualities and attributes onto other's. So dishonest people accuse other's of dishonesty. Creeper kinds of guys accuse non creepy guys of creepiness, and by creepy I mean guys that purely objectify women and relate to us as such.

It takes maturity to relate to us as people first and foremost, and sexually desirable objects of lust, secondarily. And the truth is women do this to men as well, but, we get away with a lot more than men, because we tend to be less threatening, at least on a physical level.

Not enough people admit to female's power to be destructive in psychological and social ways to men and children and to other women, as well.

 

[MNAus]

I think also worth noting is that our tendency to over analyse and try to figure out what is going on can lead to situations where we don't come across as trustworthy. Because it's what calculating, manipulative people do. You can't blame people for having a radar for the uncanny valley effect of "does he mean that, or is he just saying that?" It's a shame, because we end up in these vicious circles of "hmmm, what do they mean by that, are they happy or sad", the other person notices the responses feel a touch 'calculated' and their expression changes, we notice and start with "hmmm, oh dear, they appear to have lost their smile, quickly, compensate now" which provokes a feeling of "what's he hiding?" by the NT.

If they ever come up with medication for ASD, I think one thing they could target is to turn down the sensory input so we listen better to our intuitions.

 

[Neri]

I think also worth noting is that our tendency to over analyse and try to figure out what is going on can lead to situations where we don't come across as trustworthy. Because it's what calculating, manipulative people do. You can't blame people for having a radar for the uncanny valley effect of "does he mean that, or is he just saying that?" It's a shame, because we end up in these vicious circles of "hmmm, what do they mean by that, are they happy or sad", the other person notices the responses feel a touch 'calculated' and their expression changes, we notice and start with "hmmm, oh dear, they appear to have lost their smile, quickly, compensate now" which provokes a feeling of "what's he hiding?" by the NT.

If they ever come up with medication for ASD, I think one thing they could target is to turn down the sensory input so we listen better to our intuitions.

There is a medication that works for that, it's called Cannabis. It's proven to work in just the way you describe.

 

[MNAus]

There is a medication that works for that, it's called Cannabis. It's proven to work in just the way you describe.

Alcohol too, also quite a lot of the hypnotic sedatives. I guess there is a reason a lot of people on the spectrum have substance abuse issues. You have to hope they get closer to understanding what the underlying causes are of the experiences we have with autism. I kind of suspect there may be more than one 'type' though.

 

[Neri]

Alcohol too, also quite a lot of the hypnotic sedatives. I guess there is a reason a lot of people on the spectrum have substance abuse issues. You have to hope they get closer to understanding what the underlying causes are of the experiences we have with autism. I kind of suspect there may be more than one 'type' though.

Post in thread 'Cannabis Usage (Any similar experiences?)' Cannabis Usage (Any similar experiences?)

 

[Steelbookcollector217]

I try to think what it would be like to have a man (or woman for that matter) look at me without saying anything for some time. I'd be worried I had some sort of blemish on my face, that I look ridiculous, or perhaps they were out to get me. It's pretty much automatic that we look at someone who has just come in the room or just walked by. But a glance is rather different from a prolonged stare.

It is totally unjust that men get labelled stalkers when they are not. However, it is best to avoid having your motives and actions misconstrued. That is easier said than done and I've learned from hard experience. Part of that experience involves trying to get in someone else's shoes as I mentioned.

yeah it angers me a lot, that men will get accused or thrown those labels when lots of those men were never a danger, they were never a threat to anyone in the first place, they never even touched the other person, thats another reason why it has always angered me on men always having been the ones to make advances on a woman, because the person in that position is the one at risk of getting thrown those labels.

 

[Steelbookcollector217]

Nope. My guy friend is autistic, very attractive and has still been accused of being a creeper, when he never is. Usually by other men who are envious of his rapport (innocent rapport, I might add) with women, even very young women.

But, he also had an ex, a very dishonest and personality disordered ex (I know this because I know her, she has assaulted me and she is a very anti social and duplicitous woman) who cooked up a stalker charge for him, at one stage. She buttered up another guy. to false witness in court. This other guy, on seeing it was my guy, in court, said "Oh, I didn't know it was you" but still testified against him.

interesting, since lots of autistic men have never had girlfriends before, it seems the rate for men with autism and never having had a girlfriend before is quite common.

 

[Neri]

interesting, since lots of autistic men have never had girlfriends before, it seems the rate for men with autism and never having had a girlfriend before is quite common.

That is true, as far as I know. My autistic adult son's, 3 of them, are in that camp.
My guy friend has had an enormous amount of bullying though, so that is something that many autistic people, men and women, have had in common.
Mostly, he has been intimidated by women and not aware when they are interested in him and the ones he's ended up with are very troubled, and ultimately, liabilities. Except me, of course! Although, when I met him, I was also in bad shape.
It is so complicated, this "dance" of the sexes. Hard enough for many NT men to understand and connect with women, and so is it any wonder that autistic men are further disadvantaged?
But I will say, though, that attitude is everything!
You must heal your trauma if you want fulfilling relationships. You must learn to deeply care for yourself and relinquish judgment. You must understand that life is a learning experience and when you learn what it is you need to, to achieve what it is you want, everything changes. The experiences of the past no longer hold sway.

Men are at such a disadvantage in terms of societal sanctioned (lack of) emotional awareness and the mores and "toxic" messages given to them by the society at large.

In order to heal you need to break away from those mean-spirited societal messages you have internalized and truly learn to deeply care and respect yourself.

Shed the shame that rejection instills, and realize your own inherent worth. Once you have develop that internal "centering" of accepting yourself and the life conditions that you are in, you free up energy to develop yourself in ways that are increasingly more attractive.

It is about leaving behind all sense of "victimhood" and stepping into your self empowered, authentic, kind and loving masculine self. THAT is what mature women want, we want men who believe in their own worth and accept themselves in all their strengths and works-in-progess not-so-strengths and who have enough emotional energy left over from the challenges of survival, to give us self-respecting boundaried devotion and authentic affection and sexual friendship. It is maturity that women respond to, and many Autistic men have not developed that maturity yet. Hense their lack of sexual success.