13 year old asperger without motivation to learn

[AnnDo]

My friend has a son, Charlie, who is suspected to have an asperger syndrome. He's 13 years old. His mother has been diagnosed with MS and his father died more than one year ago, so his home situation is difficult.

Charlie wasn't diagnosed asperger, but he has lots of symtopmes of it. Specialists refuse to give him the diagnosis, saying he's somewhere between the ADHD and asperger, some say that he's a rebelious type.

Charlie doesn't seem to be motivated to learn at school. He says that learning doesn't make sense. When one does his homework with him, he often gets distracted, furious, histerical or even wants to make you to do his homework for him. He also doesn't believe he can succeed, it's hard to convince him that he's smart. (and he is) When we do the homework he sometimes can't divide by 10 or 3. (the other day he can)

It's strange that one day he does well and the other day he does really bad doing his homework. Same with grades at school - he sometimes does well and sometimes bad.

Some people (eg. his psychologist) say that he's manipulative. He may play a role of helpless but in fact he doesn't want make any effort because learning bores him and he uses his intelligence to avoid what he doesn't like.

He is a bit addicted from the internet and TV. He watches silly movies on youtube and from there possibly he took unrealistic view on life. (eg. that it doesn't require hard work, because on youtube he can't see all the boring preparations to do a awesome trick)

The kid knows car mechanics very well, but doesn't get fraction and math overall. (proven) That's why I think he's an asperger. His interests are very narrow, if something doesn't fit into his passion is considered boring.

His mother can't stress because of her MS, but she does, anyway. The kid does not seem to bother with her condition, like he's not believing she has it. (it seems he's not, but it might not be true) She looks all right, but because of stress she might have an attack. Charlie judges from the externals that she's all right.

The problem is that he has possibly an asperger, but he attends a normal school and there is a risk going to "special" school because of bad grades.

Addionally, their financial situation is not good and the kid seems to behave like he doesn't care. He wants all the stuff better situated kids have, his behaviour sometimes seems stunning - rude, demanding attitude. It seems like he doesn't get the situation at all. He's taken care very well, but he doesn't have the 'extra' stuff he wants. Sometimes when he gets the chance to have fun, he doesn't want to.. and he has the chance quite often because people help him and his mother.

Is there a way to help him go through school? It gets really bad, I have no idea how to get him out of this.

How to make him believe that learning makes sense, while everyone tried most of standard arguments on him. (from money to "being able dreams come true")

I'm mainly interested in hints how treat and reach this child eg. what we should avoid . We'll look for treatment/social help locally around his home.

Thanks,
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm re-pasting more details about Charlie, I really think he's an aspie. He has lots of asperger symptomes. At one time we started thinking that he's intelligent and he learned lots of social/emotional niuances so far so the doctors can't give him right diagnosis, they are not spending time with him. They are seeing him one or two times in life. In the doctor's office he behaved either rudely or too polite.

I think he's an awesome but complicated kid. Great sense of humor and imagination, he makes out unrealistic funny projects like my old junky car making 1000mph just for a milion dollars I would have to chip in. (the result of watching car mechanic

And yes, he knows car mechanics - year ago he attempted repair my car's steering wheel pump, but as a woman I've chickened out when he started to remove alternator, the car was fine afterwards. His father was a bad-ass truck driver, he took Charlie for a trip around Europe. They had lots of "tough-guy" adventures, kid claims that he had a chance to do small repairs in his uncle's car garage, (like he changed car pads at the age of 10) His mother says he is making this out because he has a great imagination and wants to get noticed by others, he supposed to have good grades at school. On the other hand - he can talk about assembling cars parts for hours and I don't think he makes all those details out, when he describes how steering wheel pump works, it's generally correct, accroding to google.

Social issues - he has them, he's a total loner. He prefers adults from kids in his age, and he doesn't accept all adults. Also he prefers younger kids than the ones in his age.

He often complains that someone has something against him, while there is no visible issue. (eg. old man in the bus, teachers, his mother) This way he doesn't start any relation because he assumes person has something against him. I've noticed he exaggerates his response to people's reactions. Something I wouldn't worry about is a huge deal for him. He takes small issues as rejection and "not understanding" him. He has problems at school, some kids bully him, but the worst times are behind him - worst bullies left the school. It's strange, he says kids bully him, class don't like him, then I hear it's opposite. It's all strange with him. I've heard him talk to class mates on the phone - like the best bros, he has some friends at school. On the other hand they don't hang out outside of school. After school he has no friends. Children of his neighbours bully him (seriously), he fears to get out of home.

He's also sensitive to pain - when he touches nettle during the walk he takes it as a great pain, for five/ten minutes it is the only thing he focuses on - the pain. Same when he trips over something, scratches his hand. From the outside it seems like he's a weeper and exaggerates. I saw him being treated harshly by someone for behaving not like a "tough guy" when he complained about pain in a leg after he fell from bike. The guy told him that he's making the pain out, I think he didn't.

He's clumsy, he often fells, trips, breaks stuff. (And gets criticized for that, which puts him down) He has a light disability - walking problems (hip). He walks slowly and have problems with weight because he can't play football or run. (and loves too much candies which he should give up)

He needs to touch things, manipulate something, taste, chew, all the time. (It's hard to do his homework with him because of that) Awkward is that he likes the texture of car park tickets.

He doesn't seem to listen what you say, this might be asperger or ADHD symtome. One has to repeat few times until he gets what you meant. (Making the homework with him is even a bigger challenge this way) I'm often not sure if he listens to me at all. He often starts talking ignoring your speach. You speak - he just starts talking not bothering with what you want to communicate. I'm not sure if he doesn't get what is being said or he does but doesn't signal he got the point. I'd have to test this.

He takes things seriously, we have to watch our words.

He doesn't take change - when you agree on certain day or date we do something together and then plans suddenly change, he don't just get disappointed. He gets furious, histerical, rebels, shouts and gets totally down. It might be a small thing. (Like last time we supposed to go to the parrot garden, then it turned out it's closed - Charlie's tuned into mr Hyde for a day) This is real, he behaves this way. The thing is these are really small things that infuriate him.

He sees ghosts, he tells that in his room things fall by themselves. He sometimes sees his father sitting next to him. (creepiest part) I think that's his imagination. He fears to stay alone in the house.

Charlie was diagnosed with depression after his father death, he took drugs for it, but his mother decided that he should stop taking them because he seemed like a zombie. His mother has MS, I suspect she has also depression.

He has all those problems and he started to give up. I sometimes also drop out from thinking he has issues, I get convinced he's rude or unwiling to cooperate.

The real problem is about him having dreams (own car garage and pimping cars for money) and tons of issues around him he cannot cope with.

 

[onlything]

Has someone ever took him to the side to tell him what is MS, what are the risks etc? As a child I would often not get obvious things as long as they weren't presented in a straightforward way.

About - Charlie, was it? - him, it's hard to 'diagnose' him in any way based on the amount of information you told us. Observe him more. It would be beneficial to know his thinking processes(ask him?). Also, AS people are just that, people, and some ways of manipulating others are typical in any child.

I will write some more later.

 

[Flinty]

It's strange that one day he does well and the other day he does really bad doing his homework. Same with grades at school - he sometimes does well and sometimes bad.

This reminds me very much of a classmate I had through junior high - very very unpredictable. In Grade 10 he was sent to a private school. He hated it so much that by Christmas he was pleading with his parents to come back.

His parents agreed on one condition: cut down the sugar severely. He came back...and was never a problem again. He graduated a year late not because of poor grades, but because returning after Christmas caused him to lose all of his fall credits.

He was never formally diagnosed with ADHD (although my mother informally diagnosed him as "hyper").

Your friend's son appears to have a talent, and talent should be encouraged; I don't know if it can be done through the local school system he is in.

 

[OkRad]

I would talk to his mother before asking us. It sounds like you care very much, so she would probably like to hear your concerns. I just feel weird trying to get into a situation that is already twice removed. But I commend your care. He may not by Aspie at all, but whatever he is, he has a sick mom and needs all the care and compassion he can get. He may not SHOW he is hurting. He may block out the world with electronics, but he is still a kid and needs his mom.

 

[-SN]

That's really unfortunate. It reminded me of a story i heard about poor kids that go hungry consistently. They said that when a child is hungry, and worried about the next meal, it is almost impossible to learn, and focus on learning.
It sounds like there is a lot going on for this teen, and losing a parent and having another one that is sick could sweep aside any focus on school, i would imagine.

good luck, that's nice you care enough to help

 

[The Midge]

It may be worth involving an occupational therapist in school. IF Charlie is on the spectrum there may be sensory processing issues involved: the class room could be too noisy, the chair not providing the right support, clothes that are uncomfortable. the temperature or lighting being wrong. These may be distracting. Some class rooms or activities maybe worse than others.

Unfortunately we can't diagnose someone for them. All we can say is what it is like for ourselves to be on the spectrum and highlight some of the issues we have.

When you have met one person with autism you have met one person with autism.​

 

[Bella Pines]

Special interests, getting quickly bored and not following the crowd, making his own mind up about school despite what others are doing, point to aspie. The accusation of being manipulative sounds very unfair, this may be how a neurotypical adult behaves, but a child with a troubled childhood needs guidance, not judgement. Math and fraction, however are not an indication, I have aspergers and excelled in all aspects of maths and physics.

But regardless of how aspie or adhd he is, he is clearly wasting his potential and is on a bad path.

Whilst this really is the responsibility of the school and his mother, if they are all failing him or not really bothering to look beyond the surface, then having a single person that believes in him and supports him will clearly help and there are many things you can do. The first question (and awkward aspie question that no one else would ask ) is why? What is he to you? Are you close to his mother? Are you in his life for the long term or is this a fleeting charity case?

Is there any way (probably not) that he would understand that good grades are a foundation for a good job and a way out of his situation? Unfortunately, at that age, none of this logic would have meant anything to me. Can you approach it logically, explaining that it is in his best interests? Again, probably not.

But, maybe play to his special interest? Is there a way to get him an internship at a garage? Even a tyre fitting place? Do you know anyone that could spark that side of him? Then it could be sold that getting good grades is a way for him to get a job as a mechanic? Just thinking out loud.

 

[Dadwith2Autisticsons]

Has he tried any medication, if any doctor suspected ADHD as you suggested that was a possible condition? Also, try like a computer program like CogMed or other that helps with such issues. @BellaPines , this is one of the few times I disagree with you. There could be other signs and symptoms that the original poster was not mentioning, but this does not seem Aspergers in absense of other information leading there.

First realize though it is not uncommon that ADHD and ASD are often comorbid conditions. But, let's say one doctor that the patient sees diagnoses one of the two conditions while another doctor they later see diagnoses the other, actually in that case it looks comorbid if one combines the diagnoses but really often it could be just one condition, as one doctor could have misdiagnosed.

In the case of @AnnDo your friend's son, from what you wrote in the post, taking into account just that amount of information you said, and not seeing you talk for instance about any routines, sensory issues, language and social difficulties, motor and stimming related issues, atypical fascinations, etc, it will be hard for any doctor to say Aspergers or ASD. You did mention a preoccupation with the internet and television, but that could be because of a racing mind, need for mental stimulation, and need to have his fingers keep moving...

Everything else in that post too, without hearing yet of other ASD signs and symptoms, suggests that other condition or something else, and not Aspergers. But again, you could be not talking about those ASD issues in this one post, and he could have others signs and symptoms I am not aware. Just realize any narrow interest may seem Aspergers related, but could be also from that other condition, as it is quite common they can hyperfocus on things or issues too. Yes, those with Aspergers can get bored, too, of subjects that disinterest them, and have behavioral issues, but so can those with attention and hyperactivity issues.

All those traits you listed in your post were a part of my wife's condition, ADHD. She even had severe difficulty with anything related to Math, too, another thing you mentioned and which she was tested for, because of her executive function difficulties and visual tracking issues, and difficulty at remembering details she considers not important. In no way does she have ASD in any way. Could the friends' son have that based "just" on what you said? No. Not in absence of most all of the core components, as narrowed interests, behavioral problems and boredom does not equate to Aspergers. No competent doctor on this planet would say such. But, if there were other core symptoms not talked about, then yes.

Demanding, manipulative and unmotivated does not cause a blinking light in my head to go off to say Aspergers, sorry. I have read a lot of posts here from different members, each being different, but those terms never entered my mind for one with ASD.

 

[AnnDo]

Has someone ever took him to the side to tell him what is MS, what are the risks etc? As a child I would often not get obvious things as long as they weren't presented in a straightforward way.

About - Charlie, was it? - him, it's hard to 'diagnose' him in any way based on the amount of information you told us. Observe him more. It would be beneficial to know his thinking processes(ask him?). Also, AS people are just that, people, and some ways of manipulating others are typical in any child.

I will write some more later.

Thank for the reply.

He knows what the MS is, but I don't think he have seen any person having MS remission sitting on a wheelchair. It might be possible that people wanting to save him all the worries never told him the whole truth. I told him few times about his mother's condition, but without all the drastic parts.

He seems fragile inside (despite of rudeness) and emotionally younger than 13 years old.
Do you think it's worth telling and showing him what MS looks like in its bad stage?

 

[AnnDo]

Has he tried any medication, if any doctor suspected ADHD as you suggested that was a possible condition? Also, try like a computer program like CogMed or other that helps with such issues. @BellaPines , this is one of the few times I disagree with you. There could be other signs and symptoms that the original poster was not mentioning, but this does not seem Aspergers in absense of other information leading there.

First realize though it is not uncommon that ADHD and ASD are often comorbid conditions. But, let's say one doctor that the patient sees diagnoses one of the two conditions while another doctor they later see diagnoses the other, actually in that case it looks comorbid if one combines the diagnoses but really often it could be just one condition, as one doctor could have misdiagnosed.

In the case of @AnnDo your friend's son, from what you wrote in the post, taking into account just that amount of information you said, and not seeing you talk for instance about any routines, sensory issues, language and social difficulties, motor and stimming related issues, atypical fascinations, etc, it will be hard for any doctor to say Aspergers or ASD. You did mention a preoccupation with the internet and television, but that could be because of a racing mind, need for mental stimulation, and need to have his fingers keep moving...

Everything else in that post too, without hearing yet of other ASD signs and symptoms, suggests that other condition or something else, and not Aspergers. But again, you could be not talking about those ASD issues in this one post, and he could have others signs and symptoms I am not aware. Just realize any narrow interest may seem Aspergers related, but could be also from that other condition, as it is quite common they can hyperfocus on things or issues too. Yes, those with Aspergers can get bored, too, of subjects that disinterest them, and have behavioral issues, but so can those with attention and hyperactivity issues.

All those traits you listed in your post were a part of my wife's condition, ADHD. She even had severe difficulty with anything related to Math, too, another thing you mentioned and which she was tested for, because of her executive function difficulties and visual tracking issues, and difficulty at remembering details she considers not important. In no way does she have ASD in any way. Could the friends' son have that based "just" on what you said? No. Not in absence of most all of the core components, as narrowed interests, behavioral problems and boredom does not equate to Aspergers. No competent doctor on this planet would say such. But, if there were other core symptoms not talked about, then yes.

Demanding, manipulative and unmotivated does not cause a blinking light in my head to go off to say Aspergers, sorry. I have read a lot of posts here from different members, each being different, but those terms never entered my mind for one with ASD.

I think I just attemted to start the discussion, so I didn't focus on the details but gave an overview of the problem. I might also have problems describing all the issues the kid have, there are lots of little details about him. (Apart from that, english is not my first language.)

I think he's an awesome but complicated kid. Great sense of humor and imagination, he makes out unrealistic funny projects like my old junky car making 1000mph just for a milion dollars I would have to chip in. (the result of watching car mechanic

And yes, he knows car mechanics - year ago he attempted repair my car's steering wheel pump, but as a woman I've chickened out when he started to remove alternator, the car was fine afterwards. His father was a bad-ass truck driver, he took Charlie for a trip around Europe. They had lots of "tough-guy" adventures, kid claims that he had a chance to do small repairs in his uncle's car garage, (like he changed car pads at the age of 10) His mother says he is making this out because he has a great imagination and wants to get noticed by others, he supposed to have good grades at school. On the other hand - he can talk about assembling cars parts for hours and I don't think he makes all those details out, when he describes how steering wheel pump works, it's generally correct, accroding to google.

Social issues - he has them, he's a total loner. He prefers adults from kids in his age, and he doesn't accept all adults. Also he prefers younger kids than the ones in his age.

He often complains that someone has something against him, while there is no visible issue. (eg. old man in the bus, teachers, his mother) This way he doesn't start any relation because he assumes person has something against him. I've noticed he exaggerates his response to people's reactions. Something I wouldn't worry about is a huge deal for him. He takes small issues as rejection and "not understanding" him. He has problems at school, some kids bully him, but the worst times are behind him - worst bullies left the school. It's strange, he says kids bully him, class don't like him, then I hear it's opposite. It's all strange with him. I've heard him talk to class mates on the phone - like the best bros, he has some friends at school. On the other hand they don't hang out outside of school. After school he has no friends. Children of his neighbours bully him (seriously), he fears to get out of home.

He's also sensitive to pain - when he touches nettle during the walk he takes it as a great pain, for five/ten minutes it is the only thing he focuses on - the pain. Same when he trips over something, scratches his hand. From the outside it seems like he's a weeper and exaggerates. I saw him being treated harshly by someone for behaving not like a "tough guy" when he complained about pain in a leg after he fell from bike. The guy told him that he's making the pain out, I think he didn't.

He's clumsy, he often fells, trips, breaks stuff. (And gets criticized for that, which puts him down) He has a light disability - walking problems (hip). He walks slowly and have problems with weight because he can't play football or run. (and loves too much candies which he should give up)

He needs to touch things, manipulate something, taste, chew, all the time. (It's hard to do his homework with him because of that) Awkward is that he likes the texture of car park tickets.

He sees ghosts, he tells that in his room things fall by themselves. He sometimes sees his father sitting next to him. (creepiest part) I think that's his imagination. He fears to stay alone in the house.

Charlie was diagnosed with depression after his father death, he took drugs for it, but his mother decided that he should stop taking them because he seemed like a zombie. His mother has MS, I suspect she has also depression.

He has all those problems and he started to give up. I sometimes also drop out from thinking he has issues, I get convinced he's rude or unwiling to cooperate.

The real problem is about him having dreams (own car garage and pimping cars for money) and tons of issues around him he cannot cope with.

 

[AnnDo]

Has he tried any medication, if any doctor suspected ADHD as you suggested that was a possible condition? Also, try like a computer program like CogMed or other that helps with such issues. @BellaPines , this is one of the few times I disagree with you. There could be other signs and symptoms that the original poster was not mentioning, but this does not seem Aspergers in absense of other information leading there.

First realize though it is not uncommon that ADHD and ASD are often comorbid conditions. But, let's say one doctor that the patient sees diagnoses one of the two conditions while another doctor they later see diagnoses the other, actually in that case it looks comorbid if one combines the diagnoses but really often it could be just one condition, as one doctor could have misdiagnosed.

In the case of @AnnDo your friend's son, from what you wrote in the post, taking into account just that amount of information you said, and not seeing you talk for instance about any routines, sensory issues, language and social difficulties, motor and stimming related issues, atypical fascinations, etc, it will be hard for any doctor to say Aspergers or ASD. You did mention a preoccupation with the internet and television, but that could be because of a racing mind, need for mental stimulation, and need to have his fingers keep moving...

Everything else in that post too, without hearing yet of other ASD signs and symptoms, suggests that other condition or something else, and not Aspergers. But again, you could be not talking about those ASD issues in this one post, and he could have others signs and symptoms I am not aware. Just realize any narrow interest may seem Aspergers related, but could be also from that other condition, as it is quite common they can hyperfocus on things or issues too. Yes, those with Aspergers can get bored, too, of subjects that disinterest them, and have behavioral issues, but so can those with attention and hyperactivity issues.

All those traits you listed in your post were a part of my wife's condition, ADHD. She even had severe difficulty with anything related to Math, too, another thing you mentioned and which she was tested for, because of her executive function difficulties and visual tracking issues, and difficulty at remembering details she considers not important. In no way does she have ASD in any way. Could the friends' son have that based "just" on what you said? No. Not in absence of most all of the core components, as narrowed interests, behavioral problems and boredom does not equate to Aspergers. No competent doctor on this planet would say such. But, if there were other core symptoms not talked about, then yes.

Demanding, manipulative and unmotivated does not cause a blinking light in my head to go off to say Aspergers, sorry. I have read a lot of posts here from different members, each being different, but those terms never entered my mind for one with ASD.

I think I just attemted to start the discussion, so I didn't focus on the details but gave an overview of the problem. I might also have problems describing all the issues the kid have, there are lots of little details about him. (Apart from that, english is not my first language.)

I think he's an awesome but complicated kid. Great sense of humor and imagination, he makes out unrealistic funny projects like my old junky car making 1000mph just for a milion dollars I would have to chip in. (the result of watching car mechanic

And yes, he knows car mechanics - year ago he attempted repair my car's steering wheel pump, but as a woman I've chickened out when he started to remove alternator, the car was fine afterwards. His father was a bad-ass truck driver, he took Charlie for a trip around Europe. They had lots of "tough-guy" adventures, kid claims that he had a chance to do small repairs in his uncle's car garage, (like he changed car pads at the age of 10) His mother says he is making this out because he has a great imagination and wants to get noticed by others, he supposed to have good grades at school. On the other hand - he can talk about assembling cars parts for hours and I don't think he makes all those details out, when he describes how steering wheel pump works, it's generally correct, accroding to google.

Social issues - he has them, he's a total loner. He prefers adults from kids in his age, and he doesn't accept all adults. Also he prefers younger kids than the ones in his age.

He often complains that someone has something against him, while there is no visible issue. (eg. old man in the bus, teachers, his mother) This way he doesn't start any relation because he assumes person has something against him. I've noticed he exaggerates his response to people's reactions. Something I wouldn't worry about is a huge deal for him. He takes small issues as rejection and "not understanding" him. He has problems at school, some kids bully him, but the worst times are behind him - worst bullies left the school. It's strange, he says kids bully him, class don't like him, then I hear it's opposite. It's all strange with him. I've heard him talk to class mates on the phone - like the best bros, he has some friends at school. On the other hand they don't hang out outside of school. After school he has no friends. Children of his neighbours bully him (seriously), he fears to get out of home.

He's also sensitive to pain - when he touches nettle during the walk he takes it as a great pain, for five/ten minutes it is the only thing he focuses on - the pain. Same when he trips over something, scratches his hand. From the outside it seems like he's a weeper and exaggerates. I saw him being treated harshly by someone for behaving not like a "tough guy" when he complained about pain in a leg after he fell from bike. The guy told him that he's making the pain out, I think he didn't.

He's clumsy, he often fells, trips, breaks stuff. (And gets criticized for that, which puts him down) He has a light disability - walking problems (hip). He walks slowly and have problems with weight because he can't play football or run. (and loves too much candies which he should give up)

He needs to touch things, manipulate something, taste, chew, all the time. (It's hard to do his homework with him because of that) Awkward is that he likes the texture of car park tickets.

He sees ghosts, he tells that in his room things fall by themselves. He sometimes sees his father sitting next to him. (creepiest part) I think that's his imagination. He fears to stay alone in the house.

Charlie was diagnosed with depression after his father death, he took drugs for it, but his mother decided that he should stop taking them because he seemed like a zombie. His mother has MS, I suspect she has also depression.

He has all those problems and he started to give up. I sometimes also drop out from thinking he has issues, I get convinced he's rude or unwiling to cooperate.

The real problem is about him having dreams (own car garage and pimping cars for money) and tons of issues around him he cannot cope with.

 

[AnnDo]

Has he tried any medication, if any doctor suspected ADHD as you suggested that was a possible condition? Also, try like a computer program like CogMed or other that helps with such issues. @BellaPines , this is one of the few times I disagree with you. There could be other signs and symptoms that the original poster was not mentioning, but this does not seem Aspergers in absense of other information leading there.

First realize though it is not uncommon that ADHD and ASD are often comorbid conditions. But, let's say one doctor that the patient sees diagnoses one of the two conditions while another doctor they later see diagnoses the other, actually in that case it looks comorbid if one combines the diagnoses but really often it could be just one condition, as one doctor could have misdiagnosed.

In the case of @AnnDo your friend's son, from what you wrote in the post, taking into account just that amount of information you said, and not seeing you talk for instance about any routines, sensory issues, language and social difficulties, motor and stimming related issues, atypical fascinations, etc, it will be hard for any doctor to say Aspergers or ASD. You did mention a preoccupation with the internet and television, but that could be because of a racing mind, need for mental stimulation, and need to have his fingers keep moving...

Everything else in that post too, without hearing yet of other ASD signs and symptoms, suggests that other condition or something else, and not Aspergers. But again, you could be not talking about those ASD issues in this one post, and he could have others signs and symptoms I am not aware. Just realize any narrow interest may seem Aspergers related, but could be also from that other condition, as it is quite common they can hyperfocus on things or issues too. Yes, those with Aspergers can get bored, too, of subjects that disinterest them, and have behavioral issues, but so can those with attention and hyperactivity issues.

All those traits you listed in your post were a part of my wife's condition, ADHD. She even had severe difficulty with anything related to Math, too, another thing you mentioned and which she was tested for, because of her executive function difficulties and visual tracking issues, and difficulty at remembering details she considers not important. In no way does she have ASD in any way. Could the friends' son have that based "just" on what you said? No. Not in absence of most all of the core components, as narrowed interests, behavioral problems and boredom does not equate to Aspergers. No competent doctor on this planet would say such. But, if there were other core symptoms not talked about, then yes.

Demanding, manipulative and unmotivated does not cause a blinking light in my head to go off to say Aspergers, sorry. I have read a lot of posts here from different members, each being different, but those terms never entered my mind for one with ASD.

I think I just attemted to start the discussion, so I didn't focus on the details but gave an overview of the problem. I might also have problems describing all the issues the kid have, there are lots of little details about him. (Apart from that, english is not my first language.)

I think he's an awesome but complicated kid. Great sense of humor and imagination, he makes out unrealistic funny projects like my old junky car making 1000mph just for a milion dollars I would have to chip in. (the result of watching car mechanic

And yes, he knows car mechanics - year ago he attempted repair my car's steering wheel pump, but as a woman I've chickened out when he started to remove alternator, the car was fine afterwards. His father was a bad-ass truck driver, he took Charlie for a trip around Europe. They had lots of "tough-guy" adventures, kid claims that he had a chance to do small repairs in his uncle's car garage, (like he changed car pads at the age of 10) His mother says he is making this out because he has a great imagination and wants to get noticed by others, he supposed to have good grades at school. On the other hand - he can talk about assembling cars parts for hours and I don't think he makes all those details out, when he describes how steering wheel pump works, it's generally correct, accroding to google.

Social issues - he has them, he's a total loner. He prefers adults from kids in his age, and he doesn't accept all adults. Also he prefers younger kids than the ones in his age.

He often complains that someone has something against him, while there is no visible issue. (eg. old man in the bus, teachers, his mother) This way he doesn't start any relation because he assumes person has something against him. I've noticed he exaggerates his response to people's reactions. Something I wouldn't worry about is a huge deal for him. He takes small issues as rejection and "not understanding" him. He has problems at school, some kids bully him, but the worst times are behind him - worst bullies left the school. It's strange, he says kids bully him, class don't like him, then I hear it's opposite. It's all strange with him. I've heard him talk to class mates on the phone - like the best bros, he has some friends at school. On the other hand they don't hang out outside of school. After school he has no friends. Children of his neighbours bully him (seriously), he fears to get out of home.

He's also sensitive to pain - when he touches nettle during the walk he takes it as a great pain, for five/ten minutes it is the only thing he focuses on - the pain. Same when he trips over something, scratches his hand. From the outside it seems like he's a weeper and exaggerates. I saw him being treated harshly by someone for behaving not like a "tough guy" when he complained about pain in a leg after he fell from bike. The guy told him that he's making the pain out, I think he didn't.

He's clumsy, he often fells, trips, breaks stuff. (And gets criticized for that, which puts him down) He has a light disability - walking problems (hip). He walks slowly and have problems with weight because he can't play football or run. (and loves too much candies which he should give up)

He needs to touch things, manipulate something, taste, chew, all the time. (It's hard to do his homework with him because of that) Awkward is that he likes the texture of car park tickets.

He sees ghosts, he tells that in his room things fall by themselves. He sometimes sees his father sitting next to him. (creepiest part) I think that's his imagination. He fears to stay alone in the house.

Charlie was diagnosed with depression after his father death, he took drugs for it, but his mother decided that he should stop taking them because he seemed like a zombie. His mother has MS, I suspect she has also depression.

He has all those problems and he started to give up. I sometimes also drop out from thinking he has issues, I get convinced he's rude or unwiling to cooperate.

The real problem is about him having dreams (own car garage and pimping cars for money) and tons of issues around him he cannot cope with.

 

[spaceman]

My friend has a son, Charlie, who is suspected to have an asperger syndrome. He's 13 years old. His mother has been diagnosed with MS and his father died more than one year ago, so his home situation is difficult.

Charlie wasn't diagnosed asperger, but he has lots of symtopmes of it. Specialists refuse to give him the diagnosis, saying he's somewhere between the ADHD and asperger, some say that he's a rebelious type.

Charlie doesn't seem to be motivated to learn at school. He says that learning doesn't make sense. When one does his homework with him, he often gets distracted, furious, histerical or even wants to make you to do his homework for him. He also doesn't believe he can succeed, it's hard to convince him that he's smart. (and he is) When we do the homework he sometimes can't divide by 10 or 3. (the other day he can)

It's strange that one day he does well and the other day he does really bad doing his homework. Same with grades at school - he sometimes does well and sometimes bad.

Some people (eg. his psychologist) say that he's manipulative. He may play a role of helpless but in fact he doesn't want make any effort because learning bores him and he uses his intelligence to avoid what he doesn't like.

He is a bit addicted from the internet and TV. He watches silly movies on youtube and from there possibly he took unrealistic view on life. (eg. that it doesn't require hard work, because on youtube he can't see all the boring preparations to do a awesome trick)

The kid knows car mechanics very well, but doesn't get fraction and math overall. (proven) That's why I think he's an asperger. His interests are very narrow, if something doesn't fit into his passion is considered boring.

His mother can't stress because of her MS, but she does, anyway. The kid does not seem to bother with her condition, like he's not believing she has it. (it seems he's not, but it might not be true) She looks all right, but because of stress she might have an attack. Charlie judges from the externals that she's all right.

The problem is that he has possibly an asperger, but he attends a normal school and there is a risk going to "special" school because of bad grades.

Addionally, their financial situation is not good and the kid seems to behave like he doesn't care. He wants all the stuff better situated kids have, his behaviour sometimes seems stunning - rude, demanding attitude. It seems like he doesn't get the situation at all. He's taken care very well, but he doesn't have the 'extra' stuff he wants. Sometimes when he gets the chance to have fun, he doesn't want to.. and he has the chance quite often because people help him and his mother.

Is there a way to help him go through school? It gets really bad, I have no idea how to get him out of this.

How to make him believe that learning makes sense, while everyone tried most of standard arguments on him. (from money to "being able dreams come true")

I'm mainly interested in hints how treat and reach this child eg. what we should avoid . We'll look for treatment/social help locally around his home.

Thanks,

Try again with the formal assessment. He needs help. He's also going through puberty. Tough age. I had no idea what or why all the stuff in my head was going in. If he's struggling then his mood is low. The doctors who said he's in between sound unprofessional to me. How can someone just say that?

Try to get him out in a nurture class at school or an alternative to main stream. There's a farm in Wales, takes kids on spectrum, and challenging learners, and get them farming. As well as put through loads of accredited training and main stream exams (gcse) in UK. It's called the farm. Small classes etc.

 

[AnnDo]

Special interests, getting quickly bored and not following the crowd, making his own mind up about school despite what others are doing, point to aspie. The accusation of being manipulative sounds very unfair, this may be how a neurotypical adult behaves, but a child with a troubled childhood needs guidance, not judgement. Math and fraction, however are not an indication, I have aspergers and excelled in all aspects of maths and physics.

But regardless of how aspie or adhd he is, he is clearly wasting his potential and is on a bad path.

Whilst this really is the responsibility of the school and his mother, if they are all failing him or not really bothering to look beyond the surface, then having a single person that believes in him and supports him will clearly help and there are many things you can do. The first question (and awkward aspie question that no one else would ask ) is why? What is he to you? Are you close to his mother? Are you in his life for the long term or is this a fleeting charity case?

Is there any way (probably not) that he would understand that good grades are a foundation for a good job and a way out of his situation? Unfortunately, at that age, none of this logic would have meant anything to me. Can you approach it logically, explaining that it is in his best interests? Again, probably not.

But, maybe play to his special interest? Is there a way to get him an internship at a garage? Even a tyre fitting place? Do you know anyone that could spark that side of him? Then it could be sold that getting good grades is a way for him to get a job as a mechanic? Just thinking out loud.

Special interests, getting quickly bored and not following the crowd, making his own mind up about school despite what others are doing, point to aspie. The accusation of being manipulative sounds very unfair, this may be how a neurotypical adult behaves, but a child with a troubled childhood needs guidance, not judgement. Math and fraction, however are not an indication, I have aspergers and excelled in all aspects of maths and physics.

But regardless of how aspie or adhd he is, he is clearly wasting his potential and is on a bad path.

Whilst this really is the responsibility of the school and his mother, if they are all failing him or not really bothering to look beyond the surface, then having a single person that believes in him and supports him will clearly help and there are many things you can do. The first question (and awkward aspie question that no one else would ask ) is why? What is he to you? Are you close to his mother? Are you in his life for the long term or is this a fleeting charity case?

Is there any way (probably not) that he would understand that good grades are a foundation for a good job and a way out of his situation? Unfortunately, at that age, none of this logic would have meant anything to me. Can you approach it logically, explaining that it is in his best interests? Again, probably not.

But, maybe play to his special interest? Is there a way to get him an internship at a garage? Even a tyre fitting place? Do you know anyone that could spark that side of him? Then it could be sold that getting good grades is a way for him to get a job as a mechanic? Just thinking out loud.

Having garage and a car to disassemble parts from it is his dream.

He already tried to get the job in the garage. It's his dream. The answer was that he's too young and I've heard there are inspections coming to garages in our country. It's hard to hire teenager.

His mother thinks that the school grades are the most important, his passion is not a priority. There is no easy way turn those priorities over.

We could chip in and try to get some car from junk plus rent a garage for him.

It seems awkwardly, that the grades are the most important part in here, not him. Maybe it would be better to say - it's ok if you barely pass, we love you anyway?

On the other hand, if he doesn't finish school, he may not cope in life later. Are grades really indicator of copying in life if someone wishes to become great car mechanic and has talent?

 

[Dadwith2Autisticsons]

I think I just attemted to start the discussion, so I didn't focus on the details but gave an overview of the problem. I might also have problems describing all the issues the kid have, there are lots of little details about him. (Apart from that, english is not my first language.)

I think he's an awesome but complicated kid. Great sense of humor and imagination, he makes out unrealistic funny projects like my old junky car making 1000mph just for a milion dollars I would have to chip in. (the result of watching car mechanic

And yes, he knows car mechanics - year ago he attempted repair my car's steering wheel pump, but as a woman I've chickened out when he started to remove alternator, the car was fine afterwards. His father was a bad-ass truck driver, he took Charlie for a trip around Europe. They had lots of "tough-guy" adventures, kid claims that he had a chance to do small repairs in his uncle's car garage, (like he changed car pads at the age of 10) His mother says he is making this out because he has a great imagination and wants to get noticed by others, he supposed to have good grades at school. On the other hand - he can talk about assembling cars parts for hours and I don't think he makes all those details out, when he describes how steering wheel pump works, it's generally correct, accroding to google.

Social issues - he has them, he's a total loner. He prefers adults from kids in his age, and he doesn't accept all adults. Also he prefers younger kids than the ones in his age.

He often complains that someone has something against him, while there is no visible issue. (eg. old man in the bus, teachers, his mother) This way he doesn't start any relation because he assumes person has something against him. I've noticed he exaggerates his response to people's reactions. Something I wouldn't worry about is a huge deal for him. He takes small issues as rejection and "not understanding" him. He has problems at school, some kids bully him, but the worst times are behind him - worst bullies left the school. It's strange, he says kids bully him, class don't like him, then I hear it's opposite. It's all strange with him. I've heard him talk to class mates on the phone - like the best bros, he has some friends at school. On the other hand they don't hang out outside of school. After school he has no friends. Children of his neighbours bully him (seriously), he fears to get out of home.

He's also sensitive to pain - when he touches nettle during the walk he takes it as a great pain, for five/ten minutes it is the only thing he focuses on - the pain. Same when he trips over something, scratches his hand. From the outside it seems like he's a weeper and exaggerates. I saw him being treated harshly by someone for behaving not like a "tough guy" when he complained about pain in a leg after he fell from bike. The guy told him that he's making the pain out, I think he didn't.

He's clumsy, he often fells, trips, breaks stuff. (And gets criticized for that, which puts him down) He has a light disability - walking problems (hip). He walks slowly and have problems with weight because he can't play football or run. (and loves too much candies which he should give up)

He needs to touch things, manipulate something, taste, chew, all the time. (It's hard to do his homework with him because of that) Awkward is that he likes the texture of car park tickets.

He sees ghosts, he tells that in his room things fall by themselves. He sometimes sees his father sitting next to him. (creepiest part) I think that's his imagination. He fears to stay alone in the house.

Charlie was diagnosed with depression after his father death, he took drugs for it, but his mother decided that he should stop taking them because he seemed like a zombie. His mother has MS, I suspect she has also depression.

He has all those problems and he started to give up. I sometimes also drop out from thinking he has issues, I get convinced he's rude or unwiling to cooperate.

The real problem is about him having dreams (own car garage and pimping cars for money) and tons of issues around him he cannot cope with.

Thanks for giving more information. That was helpful. I certainly would not rule out Aspergers based on the new information. I just can say the sense of humor, imagination, prefers introverted activities (my wife seems extroverted on the surface though but loving her IPod and coloring and more introverted type activities), inability to prioritize, problems at school, suspicious tendencies, exaggeration, preferring older adults and not his age, clumsiness, wanting something to always move (hands, feet or mouth), and the extreme sensitivity to pain reminds me of my wife with ADHD.

But, I know those on the Spectrum can have a few of those issues too. So, I can see why doctors may sometimes have difficulty figuring things out, as signs and symptoms or traits of other similar conditions can be present, or again comorbid conditions could be a possibility, too. As some conditions can be so similar, the doctors should consider not only their observations at the clinical setting, but testing, witness statements, detailed questionnaires, and try looking deeply into family possible genetic and environmental history, too, etc.

I just know although my wife scored very high online as an Aspie, when she took that test, the neuropsychologist she saw gave her nine hours of testing over three spaced out sessions, rating her very high and off the chart as having ADHD. For the situation you describe, after learning more, I would not be comfortable saying it could not be ASD too, in addition to suspected ADHD, based on all those numerous signs and symptoms given. I hope your friend and her son can get more medical opinion to come to a clear determination, as time wasted is very important for the caregivers who often are going through so much too, without the proper help. it is very nice though you are trying to help as best as you can..

 

[Dadwith2Autisticsons]

Has anyone considered the possibility that he may have a Non Verbal Learning Disorder? I have both, but I was told that one can be confused with the other and vice versa. It's difficult to explain, but I have had to teach myself how to learn, because the methods used when I was in school never addressed those with an NVLD; it wasn't known back then.

It may be worth considering if he is having academic difficulties.

I heard of that before, but I did not know what that was. So, I looked it up. That has a lot of similarities for sure. The original poster should look into that, too.

 

[Judge]

From my perspective, this is all about depression- not the possibility of being on the spectrum of autism. Whether it's comorbid or not.

My symptoms of depression showed up at about the age of 12 and just got worse with time. When my father died and a series of other tragedies befell me in my early 20s. While I am self-diagnosed regarding being on the spectrum of autism, I was formally diagnosed with chronic clinical depression, social anxiety and OCD. Though in my case when I opted out of those meds "making me a zombie" many years later it was an adult choice I don't regret.

However at this boy's age of 13, to simply stop such meds without any further treatment, therapy or guidance under the care of a physician...sounds terrible under the circumstances.

It's just my opinion and perception...but then I've been there. Depression indeed can diminish one's lack of motivation, especially when there was a death in the family. All made worse with his surviving parent who is slowly fading away with MS. None of this comes as a surprise to me.

Pondering the boy's autism is just sidetracking the real issue IMO. Though whether or not his symptoms of depression can be diminished to become more functional is anyone's guess, even under proper medical care. Forms of autism makes life a challenge, largely based on social interaction. However depression, that can potentially be lethal. Like my OCD, depression can follow me even when I'm alone.

 

[OlLiE]

he speaks, he understands and he processes,
he must have hit puberty as well
however there is no excuse to behave that way
it sounds like he acting out

was he that way before his father died,
it sounds like he lacks discipline and a father

i guess what one could do is to try and determine what he enjoys and make that pleasure contingent on performance, i.e. respecting his mother and at least passing his school

if he wants to become a mechanic cool:
- if you have a buddy, let him hang around there for a while to experience it
- if he wants to study it, also cool but then attack responsibilities, goals and expectations to it

rule no1 of negotiation: never ever concede anything without asking for something in return
the best trades are things that are important to one and ask little of the other person
from there more complex negotiations are possible for more contentious topics
but doing the easy one first creates trust

good luck

 

[AnnDo]

I think I just attemted to start the discussion, so I didn't focus on the details but gave an overview of the problem. I might also have problems describing all the issues the kid have, there are lots of little details about him. (Apart from that, english is not my first language.)

I think he's an awesome but complicated kid. Great sense of humor and imagination, he makes out unrealistic funny projects like my old junky car making 1000mph just for a milion dollars I would have to chip in. (the result of watching car mechanic

And yes, he knows car mechanics - year ago he attempted repair my car's steering wheel pump, but as a woman I've chickened out when he started to remove alternator, the car was fine afterwards. His father was a bad-ass truck driver, he took Charlie for a trip around Europe. They had lots of "tough-guy" adventures, kid claims that he had a chance to do small repairs in his uncle's car garage, (like he changed car pads at the age of 10) His mother says he is making this out because he has a great imagination and wants to get noticed by others, he supposed to have good grades at school. On the other hand - he can talk about assembling cars parts for hours and I don't think he makes all those details out, when he describes how steering wheel pump works, it's generally correct, accroding to google.

Social issues - he has them, he's a total loner. He prefers adults from kids in his age, and he doesn't accept all adults. Also he prefers younger kids than the ones in his age.

He often complains that someone has something against him, while there is no visible issue. (eg. old man in the bus, teachers, his mother) This way he doesn't start any relation because he assumes person has something against him. I've noticed he exaggerates his response to people's reactions. Something I wouldn't worry about is a huge deal for him. He takes small issues as rejection and "not understanding" him. He has problems at school, some kids bully him, but the worst times are behind him - worst bullies left the school. It's strange, he says kids bully him, class don't like him, then I hear it's opposite. It's all strange with him. I've heard him talk to class mates on the phone - like the best bros, he has some friends at school. On the other hand they don't hang out outside of school. After school he has no friends. Children of his neighbours bully him (seriously), he fears to get out of home.

He's also sensitive to pain - when he touches nettle during the walk he takes it as a great pain, for five/ten minutes it is the only thing he focuses on - the pain. Same when he trips over something, scratches his hand. From the outside it seems like he's a weeper and exaggerates. I saw him being treated harshly by someone for behaving not like a "tough guy" when he complained about pain in a leg after he fell from bike. The guy told him that he's making the pain out, I think he didn't.

He's clumsy, he often fells, trips, breaks stuff. (And gets criticized for that, which puts him down) He has a light disability - walking problems (hip). He walks slowly and have problems with weight because he can't play football or run. (and loves too much candies which he should give up)

He needs to touch things, manipulate something, taste, chew, all the time. (It's hard to do his homework with him because of that) Awkward is that he likes the texture of car park tickets.

He sees ghosts, he tells that in his room things fall by themselves. He sometimes sees his father sitting next to him. (creepiest part) I think that's his imagination. He fears to stay alone in the house.

Charlie was diagnosed with depression after his father death, he took drugs for it, but his mother decided that he should stop taking them because he seemed like a zombie. His mother has MS, I suspect she has also depression.

He has all those problems and he started to give up. I sometimes also drop out from thinking he has issues, I get convinced he's rude or unwiling to cooperate.

The real problem is about him having dreams (own car garage and pimping cars for money) and tons of issues around him he cannot cope with.

I heard of that before, but I did not know what that was. So, I looked it up. That has a lot of similarities for sure. The original poster should look into that, too.

Another detail I forgot - he hates reading He's a poor reader. Does this match this syndrome?

 

[AnnDo]

Has anyone considered the possibility that he may have a Non Verbal Learning Disorder? I have both, but I was told that one can be confused with the other and vice versa. It's difficult to explain, but I have had to teach myself how to learn, because the methods used when I was in school never addressed those with an NVLD; it wasn't known back then.

It may be worth considering if he is having academic difficulties.

Yes, most of symptoms match him. I'll check this syndrome out.