Two Perspectives on The Workforce

[bentHnau]

I have come across a very interesting, informative, and relatable piece of writing about autism and the workforce on the website of one James Williams:

Two Perspectives on the Workforce

To summarize: the first author describes her experience mis-planning and failing in her desired career path due to undiagnosed autism. The second author then describes how he successfully pursued a suitable "career" by working with his self-knowledge as an autistic person, and discusses obstacles and options concerning employment and independence for autistic people in general.

What I want to know is what you all think of a couple of the questions at the end:

If individuals with autism are often employed in non-living wage jobs, is it worth it for them to pursue higher education and advanced degrees before they pursue employment?

If welfare income, such as income from SSI or disability, enables financial independence more frequently than employment, while employed individuals often must still rely on their parents, is it even worth it for individuals to find employment, or should we just focus on granting them SSI or disability income, or other forms of welfare?

 

[dragonwolf]

First, the first author really bugs me.

As a professional software developer, life isn't all rainbows and unicorns in this field. Every field has to deal with a certain amount of social interaction. In fact, it can feel downright abusive at times, when the only feedback you get on something you worked hard (and probably shed a few tears and grew a few gray hairs) over is how this doesn't work as expected, or that's "broken" or whatever. Additionally, most companies are still stuck in the 20th century and insist that you work at the office, which usually entails being put into a cube farm (this is bad for developers in general, let alone those with Autism).

That's not to say that all fields have the same amount of social interaction. Of course they don't, and engineering is more a meritocracy than most other fields, but there is still a huge social component to it, and social skills can and will still make or break you. I'm tired of my field getting painted as some haven for Autistics. That's just as dangerous, if not moreso, than going into a so-called neurotypical field without realizing that you're not suited to it for a number of reasons. Additionally, employment fields are not "neurotypical" or "autistic," in my opinion. They have certain attributes that a person, NT or AS, may or may not be suited for, and those attributes not only vary from field to field, but from individual job to individual job.

Additionally, I feel like she kept blaming the fact that she didn't get diagnosed until recently as the reason for her struggles. Even if you don't know that you're Autistic, how do you become an adult and spend almost two decades of it and not realize that you have sensory and/or communication issues? That seems like an extraordinary lack of self-assessment, and I suspect that her latching on to the Autistic label is doing as much to limit her as it is helping her.

That said, I think a lot of what she writes has a lot more to do with the shortcomings of the education of our kids and people in general, as well as our social "safety nets." James also touches on this in his essay.

As for the questions, I think they're the wrong questions to be asking.

I think the fact that welfare/SSI is a more sound economical decision than a lot of paid jobs illustrates what is so very wrong with our country's economic system. The social "safety nets" should be enough to keep a roof and food, but should be replaceable by a full-time job. Additionally, more of the lower-tier jobs need to be required to actually provide full-time employment. Too many retail and food establishments only employ people part-time, but then make them work 31.5 hours (32 is generally the cutoff between "full time" and "part time"), so that they get the most out of them, without having to pay benefits like health insurance. Additionally, the notion that minimum wage is a livable wage is based off of a 40-hour week. Losing those 8 hours of income at that level can mean the difference between paying the bills and being sent to collections. Something is seriously wrong with this picture, in my opinion.

I also think we as a society need to acknowledge that most "white collar" work does not need to be done in an office. The idea that people work better when physically together is a load of bull, and especially so if the company puts forth the tiny amount of effort needed to get a digital communication infrastructure in place (ie - messenger, chat rooms, etc). If you spend your days on a computer, odds are, you don't need to be bound to a cubicle in an office. Even a lot of fields that deal a lot with people do not require a dedicated grouped office environment where people have to be if they're not out with a client. That notion, along with the "9 to 5" needs to die a horrible, painful death, if you ask me. That alone would go a long way to helping Autistics get jobs in whatever profession they want.

Both of these essays go a long way in finding out why Autistics have issues with employment, and once we know why, we can work to address them.

The first issue mentioned was "life and career planning." Rachel is right in this one -- there's nothing with regard to what's expected, socially, in the workforce. School is "supposed" to teach that, but it really doesn't. I think we could help all of our youth if we explained that more. Narrow down your potential career paths through aptitude type tests, then provide more "shadow" days, where students can go to a typical office and see what it's like.

Additionally, I think all students should have to sit down and think about what they want in a work environment, beyond the type of job they want. Would they work better in an office or a cubicle? Bright lights or low? Spartan decor or warm and friendly? Big company with a lot of rule that may or may not make sense, or little startup with no real rules but the sometime arbitrary whims of the owner? Many of these types of questions may not be definitively answerable right away, but knowing at least which way you lean will help save you heartache in the long run, as you find careers and jobs that are more suitable to your work style.

We also need to stop having neurotypicals with no real idea what it's like to actually live with Autism (no, having an Autistic child does not count), be running Autistic-geared career development programs.

We should also not be discouraging people from going into business for themselves. Unfortunately, I don't know what career Rachel was trying to pursue that was so rigid that you couldn't succeed without being part of an office institution, but I highly doubt that the reality and what she was being told were the same. Every single business ever created had to start small somewhere. Someone like Rachel could have been a disruptor in the way her industry operated, if she'd let herself and had been encouraged to take that chance. This one, I think, is huge. There are a ton of things people can do to earn income without actually being employed by someone else, you just have to be willing to go do the things that are out there.

Oh, and don't tell me you don't have the money.

 

[Judge]

If individuals with autism are often employed in non-living wage jobs, is it worth it for them to pursue higher education and advanced degrees before they pursue employment?

If welfare income, such as income from SSI or disability, enables financial independence more frequently than employment, while employed individuals often must still rely on their parents, is it even worth it for individuals to find employment, or should we just focus on granting them SSI or disability income, or other forms of welfare?

It's inherently self-defeating to assume the likelihood of winding up in a non-living wage job whatever your real potential might actually be. But there are other logical alternatives to higher education, such as vocational training.

I see any focus on disability and SSI income only as last-ditch measures in a worst-case scenario. Something to be only emphasized on a case-by-case basis rather than on the autistic community at large.

 

[gouldgrl]

DragonWolf wrote: "Additionally, I feel like she kept blaming the fact that she didn't get diagnosed until recently as the reason for her struggles. Even if you don't know that you're Autistic, how do you become an adult and spend almost two decades of it and not realize that you have sensory and/or communication issues? That seems like an extraordinary lack of self-assessment, and I suspect that her latching on to the Autistic label is doing as much to limit her as it is helping her."

It is completely possible to go through one's adult years fully aware of one's sensory and/or communication issues; yet, at the same time work awfully hard to overcome or compensate for it, and to a certain degree, be successful at doing so.

 

[dragonwolf]

DragonWolf wrote: "Additionally, I feel like she kept blaming the fact that she didn't get diagnosed until recently as the reason for her struggles. Even if you don't know that you're Autistic, how do you become an adult and spend almost two decades of it and not realize that you have sensory and/or communication issues? That seems like an extraordinary lack of self-assessment, and I suspect that her latching on to the Autistic label is doing as much to limit her as it is helping her."

It is completely possible to go through one's adult years fully aware of one's sensory and/or communication issues; yet, at the same time work awfully hard to overcome or compensate for it, and to a certain degree, be successful at doing so.

I completely agree that it's entirely possible to be aware of them and work to overcome or compensate for it. I've been doing it, myself, having only been diagnosed when I specifically sought it out a couple of years ago.

That's not how it reads to me, though. The way she put it, it seemed to me like she somehow had no idea that she had these issues, since she chose a career that seemed very contrary to what she could handle.

It doesn't really matter whether one is Autistic or not, people have different environments that they can and can't handle. It seemed to me like she didn't even consider whether the environment she put herself in was conducive to her doing her job well. You can say that few people know it going in, and you'd be right, but after even the first time or two, she'd take a step back and try to figure out what the problem is and if/how to fix it, which can be done even outside the context of an Autism diagnosis.

Her part of the article strikes me as having a very externally-oriented locus of control. Her initial plan to pursue an academic career in internal relations was derailed by covert antisemitism and her undiagnosed Autism. She couldn't get a job, because she didn't know she had Autism. She can't go into business for herself, because "[taxation] is structured in a rigid fashion so that you work full-time in an office-based institutional capacity, or you can't even make a part-time living in the field." From the sound of it, she chose a business career less so because she wanted to do it and was good at it, and moreso because someone else told her that it's what she should do in order to be the most successful (make the most money).

All these things place the blame on external things that she didn't have control over and let those external things control her life. Even if she didn't have Autism, the odds of her getting that executive position that her peers got are quite slim, and she'd be going on about the sexism in the ranks of corporations.*

Does that mean her diagnosis and subsequent introduction to James is useless? Certainly not. From the sound of it, he was integral in empowering her and shifting at least some of her perspective so that it's more productive for her. I think that was the big thing for her. He showed her, explicitly, how Autistic people can "bypass the mainstream job system and become fully or partially self-sufficient." She was very likely already able to do this, even within her own general field, but had proverbial blinders on. James helped her by taking those blinders off, at least in some aspects.

*That's not to say there isn't any. After all, the number of women in executive positions is some pitifully small number like 10%. However, she'd be blaming it on sexism, instead of doing something to overcome -- or even better, bypass entirely -- the challenges put before her and help dismantle the status quo.

 

[Billl]

In the last 50 years I've had numerous types of employment. I have had numerous occupations. I've owned my own business's more than once. Now at age 65, I have come to the conclusion that I've got Asperger's, I've spent the last few months reading everything I can on the subject, basically, I was in denial. A couple of weeks ago, I stepped into the light, and accepted it. Physically I am no different than the day before. Emotionally it was as close to having an epiphany as I could imagine. Looking back, soul searching (65 years is a long time), applying what I had just accepted. Asperger's settled an age ole' question I've had. I finally know, "WHY".

My wife, family and even some acquaintance's I have know for years have noticed a difference even though they can't put there finger on it. I've haven't shared my diagnosis with them. The biggest factor is "I" have noticed the difference, "I" have become CONSIDERABLY more tolerant because I realize, its "ME" not them.

It is of my opinion, that having Asperger's should not lend one to making excuse's, there have been individuals diagnosed, that are considered successful. Example: Bill Gates, Alfred Hitchcock, Issac Newton, Albert Einstein, Darwin and probably Homer Simpson, just to name a few. I believe that though Asperger's may be a valid reason for behavior. It is not nor should be used as an excuse or an apology. Sh_t Hattpens, get over it, turn the page.

OK, I realize that jobs are harder to find today and because of your Asperger's staying employed is gonna be quite a task. But to accept defeat is to give up. There is an ole' adage that goes: "No one likes a quitter". So if you are feeling bummed out now, get ready for a life time of it.

Life on retirement income is not picnic, all one has to do is look at current elderly retiree's with only one pension. Yep, you will have housing, you will have food, you will have medical just like they do. The difference is while they are old and have participated in a variety of things through out there lives and have memories doing them which took money. You are young, will never have any money and be subject to simply sitting by the side lines observing the antics of others. Possibly on the same bench as the elderly.

 

[Christy]

If individuals with autism are often employed in non-living wage jobs, is it worth it for them to pursue higher education and advanced degrees before they pursue employment?

If welfare income, such as income from SSI or disability, enables financial independence more frequently than employment, while employed individuals often must still rely on their parents, is it even worth it for individuals to find employment, or should we just focus on granting them SSI or disability income, or other forms of welfare?

Question 1: If you can afford it, I do think pursuing higher education is a beneficial thing. Even if it doesn't land you in a full time job that would afford you your living expenses, at the least it will feed your ability to self moderate, to think, to grow personally, to open opportunities that may well have never opened otherwise. But your ability to live will need to take precedence, but it could be a great filler while you're looking for that full time job.

Question 2: I think the issue that develops with receiving SSI or disability becomes a self-worth issue and is linked to the poor sense of "society" that we feel these days. We are all valuable members of society, so how are you contributing to it? Even if you take the disability pension, there are other things you can be doing to benefit other people and give you self-worth. Yes, I am actually a fan of the "work for the dole" program, it's not about earning the dole, but about contributing to the society that supports you.

One aspect of SSI or disability that I've been comtemplating is the fact that these are available to people who's ASD traits are severe enough you can't do the work (or that's my understanding). But what about if you can do the job, but the issue is how you are bullied by peers or your bosses? You may bounce from job to job unable to path a career purely because the ASD makes you naive or unable to defend yourself. An assessment would show that the aspie traits aren't severe enough to prevent you from working, so you wouldn't be eligible for disability. What happens then, is there a hole in the system?

 

[bentHnau]

An assessment would show that the aspie traits aren't severe enough to prevent you from working, so you wouldn't be eligible for disability. What happens then, is there a hole in the system?

AS symptoms often being subtle, complex, and/or situational, I'm certain that there is such a hole, and I think that I'm in it, albeit for sensory symptoms and mild social dysfunction (with effects such as rarely making it past the interview stage, thus no obvious on-the-job problems because I typically have had no job at all) rather than for bullying.

 

[Spinning Compass]

My feelings towards SSI and/or disability are colored by seeing how my neighbors who live SSI/disability struggle to make ends meet. I do not recommend it unless there is NO OTHER ALTERNATIVE.

Once you get into the SSI/disability/welfare system, you will find that your choices in life will narrow greatly. Where you live, what kind of transportation is available (if any), what kind of medical care you get and where, your food--EVERYTHING will be determined by how much you get each month and when you get it. I have a neighbor who has severe Parkinson's disease who is being hassled by our landlord for late fees because he cannot pay his rent on the first of the month for the simple reason he doesn't get his check until the middle of the month. IN THEORY it is illegal for my landlord to do as he is doing. but because this man does not have any money to hire a lawyer and must rely on overworked, inexperienced legal aid lawyers, this goes on month after month, back and forth to court, and his doctor has told him that this is literally killing him. Think about this. There is no mercy in the system. None at all.

I have had personal experience with subsidized, go-by-your-income housing and I can tell you that if you have ANY kind of sensory issues, don't expect any kind of accommodation for them in public housing. Most of these places are a nightmare for anyone on the spectrum. And they are not safe, either. As bad as my living situation currently is, I can think of places that are a thousand times worse. If I were not working, if I were on SSI/disability, I'd probably be living in one of them, teetering on the brink of eviction each month.

I would recommend anyone who is seriously contemplating the choice between work and SSI/disability research what it is like to actually live on SSI/disability income--talk to people who are in that situation, find out what your options are and are not. Go to landlord-tenant court, hear for yourself how judges rule. From what I have seen, going on SSI/disability does not make your life easier; in fact, it makes things a lot worse.

 

[Aeolienne]

We should also not be discouraging people from going into business for themselves. Unfortunately, I don't know what career Rachel was trying to pursue that was so rigid that you couldn't succeed without being part of an office institution, but I highly doubt that the reality and what she was being told were the same.

She says she has 12 years in "business and accounting" which ties in with her master's in taxation. In the UK you can certainly do accounting on a self-employed basis, but you would need to be employed by an accountancy firm first for at least three years in order to get professional accreditation.
Job profile: Chartered accountant

I am puzzled by the way Rachel refers to the "autism industry" as if it's a thing: I know that as soon as I received my autism diagnosis, the autism industry began recruiting me. Did I miss out on something along with my diagnosis? Also I'm surprised that she thinks studying nature photography would have made her financially self-sufficient that much sooner.
Job profile: Photographer

 

[dragonwolf]

She says she has 12 years in "business and accounting" which ties in with her master's in taxation. In the UK you can certainly do accounting on a self-employed basis, but you would need to be employed by an accountancy firm first for at least three years in order to get professional accreditation.
Job profile: Chartered accountant

I am puzzled by the way Rachel refers to the "autism industry" as if it's a thing: I know that as soon as I received my autism diagnosis, the autism industry began recruiting me. Did I miss out on something along with my diagnosis? Also I'm surprised that she thinks studying nature photography would have made her financially self-sufficient that much sooner.
Job profile: Photographer

That's the thing, with what she wrote, there's nothing to say she can't go into business for herself, except the people who probably have a vested interest in her going the office route, especially with 12 years' experience. This is why I think she has/had a very external locus of control.

If one has a knack for photography and can build a client base, photography can lead to financial self sufficiency in a reasonable amount of time. It probably won't be as comfortable as a successful career in a more lucrative field can get, but everything on top of "bills are paid, food is on the table, there's money in savings, and there's a bit of cash left over for discretionary spending" is pure gravy.

And yeah, I have no idea about the "autism industry" part. I've had to specifically seek out autism anything that wasn't parent groups looking for cures. Even including the "Autism At Work" program, I've been hard pressed to find people specifically seeking out Autistics, much less be recruited because I'm autistic.