True friends

[kasmanaft08]

Generally, if you're going to look for something, you know what it is (you've lost your keys, etc). Do explain how on earth you look for something when, effectively, you've no idea what it actually is or looks like!? It's too difficult to discuss anything on this 'invent your own language' basis!

What? I don't understand.

 

[Kollide]

I have maybe two close friends left over from before I became a reclusive drug-fuelled depressed OCD tourettes wreck. I even moved out from home at one point on benefits, but I was drunk all the time (I became an alcoholic in my last year of college), and then lost my job and got put on sick pay. Now, even after 3 years of barely any contact or care for those close friends, they still stayed waiting for me to come back and now, even though they're busy and I rarely get to see them, they still see me every once in a while and we get on like old times, even though we've changed/I've matured somewhat. I need new friends though. What I really need is a job, oh god I'm desperate but I want a well-paid job in a warehouse with a friend (lifts there and back), so waiting on that for now. But yes, it is hard to find true friends but I was lucky enough to find some in school and they stuck with me even after no contact and minimum contact now, at least I know they're true friends and when I can get hold of them, and they'd come help me if they could and I'd do the same back for them. I'm hoping/trying to make good friends online, this place seems full up of people, and many like-minded people or at least people I can understand. I'm very open-minded, and I think being a recluse for a while and then cracking out my shell on an overdose really helped me achieve that.

 

[BruceCM]

Quite, never mind. I've got an appointment with a psychiatrist, which is supposed to be 'just' to get me prescribed something for 'anxiety'. I'll quickly ask them if there's anything they know of with communication problems similar to AS but more serious in nature. Sorry & no offence intended but as well as AS seemed to fit my difficulties, that diagnosis is not proving to be any help whatsoever.

 

[King_Oni]

I've pretty much "lost" my friends. I also think there's a difference in good friends and best friends.

Back when I was a kid I had a good friend, I've known him since I was 4. However, when I turned 18, I dated his sister for 8,5 years. We never had a serious argument about it. But even when I was not seeing his sister, back when I was 16 or 17, I started to get on with my own life and not just hang around for the sake of "we are friends, we should hang out a lot". In the mix came a mutual friend of both of us, so that's where the entire deal of the "third wheel on the carriage" comes in. But given I was dating his sister, I was pretty much set.

After that, came a lot of friends. And a lot of friends went. Most people due to common interest. Back when I was 18/19 I was in a band and got in touch with those bandmates. Some of them, I talk to every once in a while. The bass player used to be a good friend of mine. And I'll come back to him in a second.

And there's this guy, I consider him a good friend... not "best". He's fine to hang out with, fine to go clubbing with... sometimes we go out at night for a walk.

Now, that bassplayer guy is a strange deal. I've known him for about 10 years, I should consider him a really, really good friend. We went through a lot of crap together. A little more than a year ago he was on the verge of suicide and depression due to complications in his private situation. He recently moved and his then girlfriend moved in. And she had a child, not his. But it didn't work... but yeah... it's kinda hard if you're sharing a home to just curb someone. So in the end she cheated on him and all and I literally had a 16 hour talk with him why he shouldn't kill himself. At the same time a lot of drugs came involved including pretty hardcore meth use. Come may this year, from the one day to the next, he just "vanishes". I phoned him, mailed him, texted him, to no avail. About 3 weeks ago, when I was out for some food, I, by incident passed by a friend of his/us. And he was like.. "well, he's right there in the car". Yeah so... he knows where I live, it's not that I didn't make an effort. It was no question that both he and my "friend" were both trippin on meth again... yet he didn't have the guts to get out of the car and approach me, when they stopped in front of a fastfood joint and clearly saw I was inside. Guess meth makes you paranoid and really anxious. Some people can apparently not handle drugs as well. The reason I can make this bold statement because I didn't use any less than he did, probably more even, but as addictive as it is, I could just keep away from it. So in the end I think drugs destroyed this friendship quite a bit, but hey... I'm not the one to say "drugs are bad", just make sure you can handle what you're getting yourself into.

At the moment, I'm usually just on my own, doing my stuff. In a way I can't really sustain a lot of friendships. It's not that I want to, however, I've seen that with all girls I had friendships with, either a. we ended up sleeping together, b. that point never came because they backed out and told me that while I'm a great guy to hang out with, I couldn't offer any really positive outlooks on life and that there's more to life than to just have fun.

That last thing is good to know, so now I can warn people beforehand. Though it would come across as really weird to state "look, you can't handle me, and eventually you'll either have sex with me or abandon me" (or sex and after that they'll leave). So I usually go for the "just a friendly reminder; beware who you befriend".

 

[Firnafth]

I have some good friends but honestly none I would describe as "True." I think I might call them true friends if I ever had to ask them to do something extremely hard for me and they did it because they are my friends. However, this opportunity has not presented itself for either of the two people I am thinking of.

I think I am cold because I don't I assume that my good friends would do that. I just don't know until it happens whether they would do something extremely difficult for me.

 

[BruceCM]

There's a new version of 'communication', according to somebody from our area Autism Centre. "The only meaning is the one you put in" he says. Hang on, what meaning am I putting into that? Oh, not for that statement! Not for any academic subject. Not for the workplace. 'Only' socially. Naturally, it can't be explained (especially if we remember that the only meanings are the ones we each put into what the other says) but if I can't make up 'my definitions' for those terms, it's 'linguistic avoidance techniques'. Pop goes any 'English' language. Wishes somebody would see that approach isn't just difficult, it's fundamentally impossible. Seriously, I'm going to flip & go completely crazy anytime soon if this stuff carries on. Hopefully, if that happens, I'll just slit my arms open rather than go around killing other people......

 

[kasmanaft08]

There's a new version of 'communication', according to somebody from our area Autism Centre. "The only meaning is the one you put in" he says. Hang on, what meaning am I putting into that? Oh, not for that statement! Not for any academic subject. Not for the workplace. 'Only' socially. Naturally, it can't be explained (especially if we remember that the only meanings are the ones we each put into what the other says) but if I can't make up 'my definitions' for those terms, it's 'linguistic avoidance techniques'. Pop goes any 'English' language. Wishes somebody would see that approach isn't just difficult, it's fundamentally impossible. Seriously, I'm going to flip & go completely crazy anytime soon if this stuff carries on. Hopefully, if that happens, I'll just slit my arms open rather than go around killing other people......

Um. So.

I'm really not trying to flame anything but I don't think anyone here promised you an easy answer. In an Autism group, it's fair to say that everyone has issues with it, so all we can do is discuss it or give our own personal insight. Which is what I think everyone here did.

I have no clue where you're getting these English language discrepencies, but regardless, if you want to make friends, ask, discuss or even debate about it...maybe the first thing you need to do isn't react so negatively. I feel like most of that really wasn't necessary...

 

[BruceCM]

Sorry, don't see how to 'discuss, debate', etc, on the basis put above. Didn't say anything about 'easy answers'. Just don't see how what I referred to is even possible. To clarify the 'somebody bit', I don't mean another Aspie but the supposed 'expert'. Funny, somehow or another, it is always me that's negative, nobody else. Was hoping other Aspies, etc, here might understand where I'm coming from better & I'd help, if I could, with any issues anybody else has. Won't be possible to discuss any of those if the only meaning in whatever they say isn't there, though, because it's only the meaning I put in.

 

[King_Oni]

That's the entire problem with language as a whole. I've had people claim something, where I had a totally different idea of what they meant. It came down to the discussion where I said "so, you expect me to take dictionairy and look up what you mean? And if so... can you guarantee me, that you did the same, used the same dictionairy and had the same intention in mind as what the combination of letters/syllables breaks down to?"

People gave me a really, really weird look... but I think there's a lot of... well "foolproof" speak, so to say. It's just that some people use a lot of expressions and/or not aware that it might be misinterpreted. Such is the problem in linguistics. We can't all expect to know everything and use language as means of a chessgame anticipating on what everyone means, however... no one stops you from asking someone to clarify. If said person is not able to handle that in a decent way, wonder why you would even want to befriend him (in context of this thread). All for good means, but spending 24 hours a day, just to have a convo with someone, and inquiring what someone means.

I can relate to you BruceCM because just like maths, there has to be some sort of axiom to communication, but remember that words carry more than just rational meaning, as opposed to numbers, which are rather direct and rational.

The best way to tackle the problem is like I said... ask people to clarify what they mean if you're really, really unsure.

It's funny, how said person, you've encountered "blames" you for your personal meaning in your communication, but he can reply sensible, and thus understands you. It's really a big contradiction that way. It's also quite egotisical, as he tells you how he handles language and understands you, but simply refuses you, in even the simpelest context.

 

[BruceCM]

Except that asking, or trying to, what people mean, so far, just about never worked & it is, clearly, criticized, too. I'll have to hope for some slightly better help, offline, I guess. Sorry, I find the 'relational level' in online stuff isn't good enough to really get anywhere with it. Then, for dictionaries, of course, the 'definitions' are, I believe, supposed to be based on what the words being defined are currently used to mean? You'd probably see what I'm getting at, there? Weren't people using words to mean what they were 'defined' to mean, in that case? Then, back to the 'beginning' of language - how did they come up with the definitions, then? Etc, really, I think.

 

[King_Oni]

If it is criticized, by whom? By the person who refuses to use language as means of communication like everyone else? Perhaps some people should wonder why they're being criticized in the first place before putting judgment on other people.

Yes, you are correct with the entire "words are based on definitions we set up years ago". If people make a fuss about "I don't like the way they named an apple an apple" then I suggest those people make up their own language and see if that sticks better with his circle of friends.

Also, and don't take this the wrong way... what do you expect from anyone here in this thread? Do you want us to give you good arguments you can use against that person? Do you want understanding? I'm all for handing out advice and all but without clarity we might all keep guessing and you keep getting misunderstood and it won't get either of us anywhere.

 

[BruceCM]

At the moment, I'm not expecting anything, here, thanks. Sorry for the 'rant'. It'd be great if forums like this could replace offline socializing, for me, if you know what I mean? It seems other people do manage to find them about equivalent. Don't know about anybody else here but, while I find online communication a lot easier than offline, it's just nothing like the times communication might happen to work well. Not too sure how I'm to guess what 'clarity' would mean, effectively, to anybody else; naturally, I'll try to be clear but that's a communication problem, isn't it?

 

[King_Oni]

At the moment, I'm not expecting anything, here, thanks. Sorry for the 'rant'. It'd be great if forums like this could replace offline socializing, for me, if you know what I mean? It seems other people do manage to find them about equivalent. Don't know about anybody else here but, while I find online communication a lot easier than offline, it's just nothing like the times communication might happen to work well. Not too sure how I'm to guess what 'clarity' would mean, effectively, to anybody else; naturally, I'll try to be clear but that's a communication problem, isn't it?

Oh, by all means, rant away, hehe. I'm not really social either, I found that forums and all offer a bit more depth and the reason why to get, and stay, online. I don't think you should see it as a full replacement though, but I can see that some people have more of a problem getting over a certain point. So by all means, work out what's good for you, I'll be the last one to say "get out and mix with everyone else".

On clarity; You're right in stating that you cannot know if my definition of clarity or "clear speech" is the same as yours. That's in a way, a certain communication problem. But there's no one stopping you, me or any of the other users to ask "what do you mean?" I did exactly the same with my previous post where I asked "what do you expect from us in this thread?"... and apparently you understood clearly as you answered well within context so actually, communication isn't always hard... it just takes 2 to, well, to tango obviously... it also takes 2 to not be lonely.. but all ******** aside, I think it's a 2-way thing, if either one of the communicators is trying to get difficult and deliberatly out of context, that's quite a burden.

 

[BruceCM]

For 'clear', it's not exactly a question of definitions, is it? What's clear & obvious to you might, at least, not be so clear & obvious to others, even(!) other Aspies, etc. To some extent, I obviously want some offline socializing & I didn't say communication was always so difficult, did I? For workplace stuff, for instance, I've not had too many real problems; there, you are supposed to ask, if you don't understand what you're being asked to do, etc. So far, workplace orders & so on have been clear enough but I've not made any friends that way. I imagine you'd realize it is a whole different ball game? Ironically, going up to & talking to complete strangers isn't the 'extreme sport' for me that it's supposed to be. I'll hardly care what such a person might think of me in quite the way I care what people I know a bit better & with whom I'm trying to build some relationships think, OK?
As far as people in the street goes, I'm 'lucky', I don't tend to get them calling me 'rude' names, generally, as I know happens. Since I did get plenty of those names back at school, though, I think I can safely say that really wouldn't bother me too much, really. I'm not saying that anybody else is 'deliberately trying to be difficult', etc, honestly. Since I so dislike being accused of that, when I'm really not trying to be difficult & I can't tell they are being like that. Hopefully, that all makes sense?
Arguably, it isn't just a question of 'definitions' for the most problematic areas, generally, actually, by the way. Many thanks to everybody who's contributed, of course. It's the 'unliteral' sort of stuff I've still not found any way of interpreting, obviously! Apparently, the infamously 'half-full' glass is a metaphor.....

 

[King_Oni]

No you didn't state you found it difficult, you stated you found online socializing a lot easier. I can go on about the entire "what's the average and how much above average is a lot, and what then comprises "difficult". Easy and difficult are somewhat the opposites, so I reckon if you give a value to "easy", the spacing towards the positive and the negative grows the same in lineair fashin... but yeah, it's more logics, than actual practical appliance I guess... but that's how I usually tackle some kind of "value judgment". But no.. .you did not state it litterally, if that's what you're point at.

Well, as for your workplace; am I blunt to state that at work, you're there for work and not for friends? If you make friends, that's a bonus, but if you don't... I can't really feel that, at least, I, missed out on something. The entire deal with asking for clarification because YOU don't understand at work is fine... I mean, they want YOU do to your job right so they can't complain about it. It's only best intention to get your information processing right.

Yeah... I understand that you care more for people that you tend to have more in-depth contacts with... in a way, that's the consensus of, for a part makes up "friends" and the possibility to be social.

I'm not accusing you of being difficult. I'm more so accusing the person that threw the rock on the entire language thing "difficult". You seem to, use language as a tool to get something across to others. I can see the entire "do not unto others" deal you're coming from.

It's quite common for aspies, if I'm informed correct, that they have trouble with the "unliteral" stuff. I can tackle a lot of those issues by the fact, that I care a lot about language, and have read/heard numerous weird metaphors over time. But that's not for everyone. I wondered, even if, people were aware of you have trouble understanding such, if everyone would take the time to slow down and not speak in that way and just be clear... I have my doubts about it actually. But also, is it that one takes the metaphor literally because he doesn't know it that well or is it because it doesn't come up in your mind to remember that, and rather visualize it instead?

It wasn't all aimed directly at you BruceCM... at least not the final part... more in general, on the entire "social issue and friends".

 

[BruceCM]

Sure, that's about what I thought work was for! Mostly, I was showing the differences between how it works there & socially & pre-empting any 'advice' to make friends at work, since that's been suggested a few times. In work, it's always ask, if you don't understand what you're being asked to do & say if you don't know how to operate machinery or haven't used the software or didn't cover how to do whatever it is with the program, etc. Socially, in my experience, you'd get told to 'just do it', whatever it was, or called some kind of 'negative', or get some 'explanation' of whatever it is that either makes no sense to you, contradicts itself, blatantly can't be done or something. You dare try to point any of that out & you'll get the same, if not worse, treatment. It'll always be about everybody else having the right to any & every opinion, never you; always about how they feel, never how you feel.
Meanwhile, can anybody offer any 'interpretation' of the 'the only meaning is the one you put in' bit that makes any sense at all? That isn't worse than 'voices in your head'?

 

[ziggification]

Except that asking, or trying to, what people mean, so far, just about never worked & it is, clearly, criticized, too. I'll have to hope for some slightly better help, offline, I guess. Sorry, I find the 'relational level' in online stuff isn't good enough to really get anywhere with it. Then, for dictionaries, of course, the 'definitions' are, I believe, supposed to be based on what the words being defined are currently used to mean? You'd probably see what I'm getting at, there? Weren't people using words to mean what they were 'defined' to mean, in that case? Then, back to the 'beginning' of language - how did they come up with the definitions, then? Etc, really, I think.

Hey Bruce!

'The only meaning is the one you put in' = A base exists that gives words meanings that are generally agreed upon. However, within this base form of communication there is AMPLE room for individuals, couples and groups to give the exact same word, phrase, concept a whole new meaning. Example, here "AS" is short for aspie...On another website it might be a typo of a slightly longer word. Here, "BruceCM" is understood to be a screen name. Offline, introducing yourself as "BruceCM" would require explanation (e.g., "Bruce is my first name. I attach my middle and last initial to it for pop! Please call me "bruce-see-em")

The effort required to establish a base is often taken for granted. It's why so many people are concerned about being PC (not Peter Clark, I mean politically correct.) We have so much room to grow as a culture that we are breaking off into different directions and losing the ability to come together as a group. A gamer may not always be able to speak to a sci-fi fan, in the same way that a native-American English speaker may have difficulty communicating with someone who has recently learned the language.

Here is a humorous example. The following is a message my mother left me, translated by Google Voice: don't know, burgeoning so, where are you Well, they wouldn't want you back about the triple. So, does. Mommy I think you shoot, shoot. She everything that car and come back, P M They will go landscaping. Again, Hello. Ohh.

Google's interpretation software is written based on an agreed upon baseline. In order to even start programming someone had to give a finite way for certain sounds to be interpreted. So that "putatha" and "Pohtahtoe" will both show up as "potato".

What the person who initially said that silly phrase PROBABLY meant was that you must always be aware of what you are saying AND the myriad ways it could be interpreted based on who you are speaking to, when you are speaking to them, where you are speaking to them and the millions of other non-verbal variables that affect communication. I think that "Know your audience" and "Be mindful of your words" are better (clearer) mottoes to live by. Of course, this DOES mean that you are in a constant battle to keep your mindblindness in check, but if you REALLY want or need to communicate it can be done.

With that I leave you with something I find sarcastic, dark and humorous...I wrote this for you, Bruce.

Fourteen Steps to Forever Friendships(This is kind of long...but to be taken with at least two grains of salt. I hope that you laugh...or at least smile self derisively. That is not to say that it is entirely a joke...this is pretty much the method that I use.)

Step 1: Agree on a base form of communication that is familiar to both parties. Whether it is gesticulation, verbal or pictorial does not matter. (Let's go with written English in this example...)

Step 2: Identify a desire/need in your life. (e.g., "I need someone to join me at the gym." or "I want someone who makes me feel good".)

Step 3: Define the desire/need until the level of elaboration borders on the ridiculous. (e.g., I want someone who makes me feel good, where good is the sensation received after playing video games for 40-60 minutes. In this instance good can also mean the sensation felt after I am paid attention to, entrusted with information, asked for advice, given a gift, selected first for a formal business venture, cooked for, able to cook for, spoken to with respect and dignity befitting an adult, and shown kindness. This sensation of goodness will initially be acknowledge when it has reached a nature and level I will define as "mid-level platonic." For clarity this qualitative definition shall be compared to other relationship. For example, this friendship shall be closer than my relationships to my dad, but initially not as close as my relationship to my brother. Or, the good feeling received must exceed the level of the good feeling received from inanimate objects -- drugs, pizza, tv.")

Step 4: Define what the desire/need is NOT. (e.g., In this instance, good does not refer to any physical sensation such as hugging, kissing or other intimacy.")

Step 5: Determine what goods you have to offer in exchange for the fulfillment of desire/need. (e.g., I shall provide future friend with 1% of my wealth in the form of snacks and gifts. Said friend will also receive attention/protection/affection equal to the level received.)

Step 6: Rephrase the statement of offered goods so that it is in the form of a statement of desire/need as it would be expressed by the potential friend. As if they had performed Steps 3 and 4)

Step 7: Determine the traits/personality variables that are mostly likely to be present in your ideal candidate. Phrase these in vernacular used within your region by people within your age group. (e.g., If I want someone to play video games for hours, I must find someone who is a "gamer" or who has demonstrated interest in games. Demonstrated interest may take the form of # of games possessed, number of game references made in conversation, etc.)


You now have all the ideas and language necessary for establishing a social contract. Take your mock-up to a social place such as a chat room, personals websites, classroom, club, church, library, restaurant, pub/bar, club, event or street corner.

Step 8: Evaluate the nature of socialization within the environment. Consider all aspects of socializing to occur. (e.g., who approaches who, when is the time to socialize, what other activities occur around the socialization, must you pay to socialize, is certain contact/socializing not permitted.) For example, at a coffee shop, anyone can approach anyone else, there is no formal schedule for socializing but there are times when it is not okay to socialize for example when someone is ordering or talking to someone else. You will almost always be required to make a purchase before you can sit and socialize.

Step 9: Initiate conversation and send out feelers that evaluate the likeliness that the person you are seeing is "friend material" per your requirements. (e.g., Socializing in a coffee shop may occur just after ordering while waiting for your food -- "I noticed you carrying a copy of "XYZ Book". I really enjoyed it." this particular statement makes a statement about your interests and shows that you are observant. It is platonic and non-threatening. The person may respond in a friendly manner and permit conversation, or be curt and cut off the conversation.)

Step 10: Listen to the response carefully for cues on how to proceed. (e.g., "Oh yea?")

Step 11: Decode the message. (e.g., "Oh, yea?" = "Ok....I am not sure why you are speaking to me. It isn't part of my current mission, which is to receive my coffee and sit down. You may continue to speak, and if you say something interesting I may respond...but it is unlikely.")

Step 12: Determine your tolerance for rejection and respond accordingly. (e.g., "Mmm" = cuts off conversation and leaves you both generally unscathed, "Yea. Is "XYZ Book" your first novel by Al Soupe or did you try "ABC" first?" = "I REALLY want to talk...that book was really interesting and if you like it you might be interesting too.")

Assuming things go well and you strike up a conversation

Step 13: Repeat the process of conversing to uncover the likes, dislikes and tendencies of the individual. Compare these to your desired friendship contract.

Step 14: Present your idea for a contract to the individual. You may present this OVERTLY in a statement (e.g., "Hey! Let's be friends. I think we could have a lot of fun playing video games and exchanging emails on a regular basis.") You may present the terms of the contract piecemeal (e.g., "Do you want to hang out Tuesday and play Halo?" = I am giving you a date and time specific activity that has little to no commitment.) OR you can infer that the terms of the contract are being met by both parties and silently declare it a binding agreement. (e.g., You've hung out every day for a month and realize you are getting everything you need, and giving everything you can. You are both happy and all is well with the world.)

NOTE: If your friendship dissolves or the contract needs revision return to Step 1 keeping the detail in mind (e.g., I previously made friends with a person who owned 9 cats. I thought I would be fine with this. I am not. I must add a clause in my desire/need contract that limits the quantity of cats a friend may possess.)



P.S. Do you like Avatar the Last Airbender? (Step 8!)

Best of luck with finding a true friend,
Sylvia

 

[2010Dolby]

I have tons and tons and tons of friend.
That being said.

I have very few true friends. I only have one true friend (who I realize I need to text now, havent talked to her in days) and thats because shes very cold to so many other people and deep down I can be cold to. So I can put my "NT act" down around her and just be myself.

Theres another person that I think I can be just as true of friends with, but I dont know if I really want to put the effort into it. It sounds weird, I know.

But there are some upsides to having a butt-load artificial friends. They know to not bother me with minor things and we dont really expect much from each other, other then partying and killing time and boredom.

 

[BruceCM]

Well, if the 'base meaning' is supposed to be agreed, that's agreeing that the ONLY meaning is not the one I put in. Thanks. I just find that these 'support' services people over here are mostly about as difficult to deal with as anybody else, so I'm going to have to stop talking to them about socializing. If the 'care co-ordinator' won't/ can't help with work, I'll ask in the jobcentre, since I know there's various places to help with that.

 

[ziggification]

"Just you" or "just me" putting meaning into a word is not the point....it would be about "us" putting meaning into a word and THAT agreed upon meaning being the only one we use from that point on until we both decide that it is inadequate.....If you agree with yourself that a word means something, what good does that do us in conversation ?

What advice do the support service people give?