These "times" are destroying hope for me

[zozie]

This might sound a bit weird, but reading Michel Foucault, the philosopher, and his work on power (it's ominous but so beautifully written) helped me restore my faith in something. Not because it was cheerful, not because it solved any problems, exactly, but because someone was thinking deeper and I wasn't on my own in the matter. Not just thinking more deeply, but they had some explanation for all of this that helped me tease out my own view.

You've already described complex thinking as coming naturally. Foucault is what I would call a "systems philosopher", though I doubt he'd label himself in any way. When I have absolutely had it with society and the world, I reach for my Foucault to be with someone who had also had it, who thought deeply, who wrote beautifully, and who helped me feel less alone in my way of thinking.

Philosophy has saved my life and my sanity way more than most therapy. For what it's worth.

As for Foucault, I'd recommend several of his books, but one might begin with Discipline and Punish, an account of the prison system in the western world and an analysis of power, language, and force in society in general, from the 1650s to the 20th century.

Not for everyone, just a thought.

 

[s704m]

Apologies for the length here, and the mood of despair contained within too. I'm kind of freaking out a little and hard to abridge. Much appreciation for any who take the time to read it all.

I haven't visited here for a minute so please excuse if some of this is old news.
I am an old man so I've had decades to learn how to cope with living in the world. 40 years ago my autism was pretty obvious, but today I am actually pretty good at conversation even though it wears me out and I am now good enough at the "social graces" that I can get by. My stims are restricted to private rooms, etc. In other words, I have learned to acceptably mask and cope. I eventually found a job that pays pretty well, allows me to just do my work virtually alone all day long and leverages my advantage of being able to concentrate better than most on small details.

I have always been quite a bit better than average, possibly very good (difficult to self-assess), at, with no fear, taking complex things "in" and assembling them first in my mind and then in the physical world. This has been a great advantage at my job. The process of doing this in my mind just happens all day long and never stops. If this was a problem I would have driven me crazy by now, so one can assume it's no big deal at my age. It's a very helpful advantage at my job. I can't remember the name of a person or movie or song more than a half day of first learning it (for example), but my mind has evidently traded that ability for one of assembling things together.

However, and it has already occurred to some of you readers, that this can be a frequent problem at home. It's not quite the same as "perfectionism", but I do have a problem sometimes doing simple house projects and stuff just because, since the complexity thinking thing never really stops, projects stumble way too frequently before I start because I can always think of some step that happens later which I'm not quite prepared to get through yet.

This is all just background. The current problem has to do with my stance regarding current society.

In case you've been living under a rock: The big news is that the world has gone insane this past year in eleventeen ways. Since I am adept at thinking about everything several layers deep whether I like to or not, this happens when assessing world events as well. It goes something like: thing A happens, which was from cause 1, which flowed out from cause 2 and cause 3, and none of this would have been possible without thing B and C happening, which both come from cause 4 and 5, and cause 6 also contributed to thing C, etc. etc.
The thing is, it seems so obvious to me that almost everyone on the planet from king to peasant doesn't bother to think past the top layer of anything, ever. This could be my own perception and not quite reality, but I tell you that's what it looks like to me. And of course my processing of this is an extra thick layer cake as well, whether I want it or not. Anyway, my point is that every single reaction, lie, maneuver and stupid decision you've heard about from the regular sources this whole past year is mostly caused by and certainly wouldn't have been possible without people from top to bottom, stem to stern, habitually thinking things through no more deeply than one layer in. It's no wonder that everything is falling apart right in front of our eyes all at the same time.

But today is a landmark day. When I got home after work, I tend to talk to myself for a few minutes after I get out of the truck. It's not as much thinking things out loud but more a kind of free-associating vocalization of my feelings. My most common stim. Usually it's just a repeated word or two that goes on for an hour or so, but today it started out that way and I could hear that my voice sounded a bit more distressed. Not long into it I found myself talking in truncated sentences to my deceased Mother (who I still miss profoundly after several years) and saying I was so tired of everything and I'm just ready to go. I felt the core distress, but after voicing it I also felt a bit of relief. This wasn't suicidal thinking but rather felt more like acceptance I guess. Either way, it made me a little concerned. I haven't had time to think this through much yet. But I thought maybe posting this here might be a step into that and I wouldn't mind hearing some thoughts in reply, so feel free.

My first layer in: I kind of feel like I can see the writing on the wall. It doesn't take a genius to look at what's been happening and tell from a mile away that it is extremely likely that we're only at the beginning of this. It's not like leaders, owners and their underlings will suddenly start acting with any wisdom. That's fantasy. And in case you're wondering, NO this isn't partisan politics or something. I pretty much despise the way political leaders from all sides have been incompetently & short-sightedly messing things up for decades. I'm an equal-opportunity complainer. Side effect of being old. Anyway, I am pretty good at thinking complex systems through and I do not see any way we don't end up going off the rails in 8 different ways at once and having things end up in a very rough condition. And even though I say it's just getting started, it looks to me that it's all going to come at us VERY rapidly. This isn't run-of-the-mill pessimism. When you haven't experienced disaster, and maybe even if you have, it's a human survival method to think "It won't happen to me".

Humans have the potential for such great things. But here we are, worldwide, cowardly, lazily squandering every bit of that potential for some short-term, reactionary dopamine hit. Like a bunch of junkies. Honestly, if we end up extincting ourselves from this, we (as a whole) deserve every bit of it, don't we?

In my mind, a picture that fits how I feel is what a lone, limping zebra must feel when it sees five lions coming in to pounce. I can't see an escape route, and today I realized that something shifted in a big way for me. I am really, really tired of the worry and honestly, profoundly disappointed with my fellow man. I'm not sure yet how I feel about it. Kinda hoping to get some other perspectives. I'd like to hear how other autistics are feeling these days. We're usually not great at dealing with people at best, and lately, factions have been changing the rules before we can even read them. For us, that's impossible to navigate. Anybody been through something like this lately and figured out how to come out uneaten on the other side yet?

I wish I could think of a joke to lighten the mood here at the end, but I'm not good at remembering those either.

Hi Vince -- thank you.

I'm in my late 40s. I do a lot of journaling, as at this point in my life, I have maybe one friend to talk to, but I choose not to burden them with my circuitous/multi-linear thought patterns, as my brain never shuts down. So I try to sort myself out by writing for many pages most days, while quietly stimming also.

And, I also talk to my deceased mother (gone 20+ years, may her memory be for a blessing), and my deceased best friend who knew me better than anyone (may his memory be for a blessing), as I don't really talk to people anymore -- not after last year hit.

Your post was like reading my thoughts, but you're much more coherent than I am. I am grateful for your post -- I know it's not just me who feels this way now. I was just writing about this not ten minutes ago, and wondering why no one else could see the situation? Then I thought to check here. So glad I did.

Curious about your job also -- it's none of my business, but I hope to find something similar some day. What I do now is ok, but it is not sustainable longterm.

Thanks again -- I have no answers, but I am grateful for your vision and wisdom this morning.

 

[OkRad]

This might sound a bit weird, but reading Michel Foucault, the philosopher, and his work on power (it's ominous but so beautifully written) helped me restore my faith in something. Not because it was cheerful, not because it solved any problems, exactly, but because someone was thinking deeper and I wasn't on my own in the matter. Not just thinking more deeply, but they had some explanation for all of this that helped me tease out my own view.

You've already described complex thinking as coming naturally. Foucault is what I would call a "systems philosopher", though I doubt he'd label himself in any way. When I have absolutely had it with society and the world, I reach for my Foucault to be with someone who had also had it, who thought deeply, who wrote beautifully, and who helped me feel less alone in my way of thinking.

Philosophy has saved my life and my sanity way more than most therapy. For what it's worth.

As for Foucault, I'd recommend several of his books, but one might begin with Discipline and Punish, an account of the prison system in the western world and an analysis of power, language, and force in society in general, from the 1650s to the 20th century.

Not for everyone, just a thought.

Oddly, I drew a lot of strength from Nietzsche----Zarathustra. Philosophy save my life, too. It was a long journey, not just one. But I have settled on Homer

 

[Wolfsage]

This actually brings up a philosophical question for me.
Who lives better? The man who prepares for the end? Or the man who never prepares and lives everyday as if it's the last.

 

[Thinx]

This might sound a bit weird, but reading Michel Foucault, the philosopher, and his work on power (it's ominous but so beautifully written) helped me restore my faith in something. Not because it was cheerful, not because it solved any problems, exactly, but because someone was thinking deeper and I wasn't on my own in the matter. Not just thinking more deeply, but they had some explanation for all of this that helped me tease out my own view.

You've already described complex thinking as coming naturally. Foucault is what I would call a "systems philosopher", though I doubt he'd label himself in any way. When I have absolutely had it with society and the world, I reach for my Foucault to be with someone who had also had it, who thought deeply, who wrote beautifully, and who helped me feel less alone in my way of thinking.

Philosophy has saved my life and my sanity way more than most therapy. For what it's worth.

As for Foucault, I'd recommend several of his books, but one might begin with Discipline and Punish, an account of the prison system in the western world and an analysis of power, language, and force in society in general, from the 1650s to the 20th century.

Not for everyone, just a thought.

Yes I liked Foucault too, when I was researching and writing about diversity and identity issues for my MA, he was a great resource, along with quite a few interesting and sometimes whacky French feminist philosophers. And Judith Butler on gender. None of them are easy reads, but yes, they opened doors for me, mentally.

 

[zozie]

This actually brings up a philosophical question for me.
Who lives better? The man who prepares for the end? Or the man who never prepares and lives everyday as if it's the last.

Depends on whether preparing is your style or not. For those who feel peace in preparation, then preparing for the end satisfies. For those who feel peace in living in the moment, then not preparing satisfies.

The answer to your question is not about how one lives in relationship to an uncertain future, but how one's style affects the present.

I'm a planner, but much of my planning comes from an enjoyment of planning, not necessarily as a means to control (despite what my embarrassingly ignorant official diagnosis of OCPD suggests). But my youngest kiddo prefers to live in the present and make dark jokes about armageddon, so for him, it's living every day as if it's the last.

 

[zozie]

Yes I liked Foucault too, when I was researching and writing about diversity and identity issues for my MA, he was a great resource, along with quite a few interesting and sometimes whacky French feminist philosophers. And Judith Butler on gender. None of them are easy reads, but yes, they opened doors for me, mentally.

Judith Butler later became quite a controversial figure (a couple of years ago?) when the academic community found itself with a female professor putting a male student in a compromising situation. Butler seemed to favor the professor over the student, which has darkened the shine of her work a bit, I'd say. But Butler was the first to claim that "cross-dressing" as it was called is a political act, something that hadn't really been considered -- it was thought of as a mental disturbance before that.

 

[Thinx]

Judith Butler later became quite a controversial figure (a couple of years ago?) when the academic community found itself with a female professor putting a male student in a compromising situation. Butler seemed to favor the professor over the student, which has darkened the shine of her work a bit, I'd say. But Butler was the first to claim that "cross-dressing" as it was called is a political act, something that hadn't really been considered -- it was thought of as a mental disturbance before that.

Yes that Professor was really inappropriate and unwise in her actions, not surprised she was suspended. Yes seems like her colleagues were in denial there. It doesn't make me feel differently about Judith Butlers ideas and insights on gender identity though, which stand on their merits. I didn't particularly relate to her as a feminist, so much as someone who articulates the way gender is or can be more like a performance than an attribute.

 

[Wolfsage]

Depends on whether preparing is your style or not. For those who feel peace in preparation, then preparing for the end satisfies. For those who feel peace in living in the moment, then not preparing satisfies.

The answer to your question is not about how one lives in relationship to an uncertain future, but how one's style affects the present.

I'm a planner, but much of my planning comes from an enjoyment of planning, not necessarily as a means to control (despite what my embarrassingly ignorant official diagnosis of OCPD suggests). But my youngest kiddo prefers to live in the present and make dark jokes about armageddon, so for him, it's living every day as if it's the last.

I like planning too. But, have learned little goes according to plan. Even when you prepare for it.

 

[4na11]

I don't question anything you said, you presented the whole thing quite precisely.
The only thing you kept saying that didn't sound good to me and maybe it is the source of your despair it is that you constantly said you are old. You see, I was born in the same year, and I don't like hang out with people my age because of this mindset.
Fortunately I am being able to work with millennials, and even younger people, and for them the world is not ending. This feeling you have, they don't. They haven't experienced what you did, having your dreams and hopes destroyed. They still have dreams and hope.
When I hang out with them, they light my dreams and hope.
I am lucky as a music producer to have to work with young musicians, because they keep me young.
By the way, I lost my mother and my brother, who was my best friend.
I had things in my past I don't have now. I miss those things. A lot!
But I have hope and dreams that new sweet things are ahead to come!

 

[Aspychata]

Oddly, I drew a lot of strength from Nietzsche----Zarathustra. Philosophy save my life, too. It was a long journey, not just one. But I have settled on Homer

Nietzsche really makes me think seriously. Also enjoy Asian philosophy, it helps with bad days, therapeutic intervention.

 

[oregano]

Fortunately I am being able to work with millennials, and even younger people, and for them the world is not ending. This feeling you have, they don't. They haven't experienced what you did, having your dreams and hopes destroyed. They still have dreams and hope.

Everything I've heard is that millenials and zoomers are VERY nihilistic because they do in fact realize that the world is ending and that they don't have a future. Some throw themselves into stuff like climate activism in the vain hope that they can at least slow it down a bit. Many more simply don't care about anything, like my cousin's daughter who refused to study in school or even go to school at times because she felt there was no future. At 18 she simply left home and disappeared.

 

[Vince]

I came here to post a link to a video I thought was good (see below)
Then I read a subsequent post here. I didn't want to call out anything from earlier, but now that I've already pointed out the phenomenon, maybe giving a perfect example would help you understand?
Maybe you didn't read this part:

... Honestly, even in replies to this very thread, there are a number of examples of taking what I said and jumping on some conclusion that assumes knowledge of what I think and how I live or interpreting what I wrote in something skewed toward the worst possible way rather than making an effort to think of other, more charitable ways to take it. This is extremely common these days.

Then the reply (truncated below for brevity) includes 1) assuming they evidently know me better than I do, in other words, how is it you magically "know" what I do with my days? Not only that, but exactly in tandem, you 2) interpret my words in the worst possible way rather than trying to look for the 30 other better possible intentions. This is not a winning approach in life. If you don't notice you're doing that, then you don't know to improve that about yourself. You're welcome.

I personally don't respect armchair doom predictions from people who have been sitting at home reading a book..

Anyway, here's the video I wanted to link. No big deal, just thought it fit the subject and it also lifted my spirits a bit. You might wonder why it lifts my spirits and I probably don't have an answer to that. But I appreciate that for the most part, there is no cheerleading for the usual players and grievances seem even-handed. To a guy who is disgusted by both poles inhabiting every institution, it was just good to see that I'm not alone in my assessment I guess.

 

[Gracey]

We're all going to die one day and change; while we live/exist, is inevitable.
We have little or no control over any of it.

We can 'get busy living, or get busy dying'
in that vast expanse of time between birth and death.
Hope and despair only grow if you feed them.
The choice of which we choose to nurture is and will always be ours alone.
News, politics, leaders can't be held responsible for which we choose so stop trying to blame them.

yep. It's rough at the moment. Trying times.
wont be like this forever though. It's impossible because change is inevitable

 

[Vince]

Felt like my post might be taken as an attack. Not my intention. I'm frustrated by the reply, but I stand by it because I want to show an example of an error a ton of people make today which pretty much makes everything worse every time. I sincerely hope the author and anybody else who wants to reflects a bit to figure out whether you do this or not, and then try to quit doing it. You'll make the world a little better both for yourself and others.

Also read through more replies. I had no idea it was 2 pages before!

I'm surprised that anything I say ever helps anybody, so though my words may be depressing in sum, it raises my spirits that expressing some thoughts helps some feel a little less alone.

One attempted answer to a question posted:

Who lives better? The man who prepares for the end? Or the man who never prepares and lives everyday as if it's the last.

That's elementary! 1) you don't know when the end will occur 2) not planning for the future will lead to less success in life. Since you don't know the future nor want to squander your time and trade the future for the present, as with most things, constantly searching for whatever middle ground seems a good balance between the two is the obvious answer.
So I'm not good whatsoever at finding let alone staying on that razor's edge of balance despite a lifelong effort to try to get better at it, so I have no advice to offer for that. But yeah, the answer to the question is simple, but the solution is most definitely not, which of course has been known for centuries and written about at length by many people tons smarter than me.

One reply asked me what I do and sounded like they were still searching for their own good fit. All I can say is pretty specific to me and we're all different, so take it for what it's worth. I'm a maintenance machinist which leverages my natural ability to break complex things down to manageable steps and vise-versa, a tendency to be able to concentrate closely on small details for long periods of time, and allows me to work most days entirely without having to interact but briefly with one other person and the remainder totally on my own. It pays pretty well too, though that could end depending on future government mistakes, we'll see. I used to be a musician and music teacher and I wasn't bad at it, but knowing what you and I know today, it's not difficult to guess that wasn't a good fit at all and was destined to be somewhat temporary (18 years). It was exhausting and I was perpetually stressed, I just didn't know why at the time.
My advice is to list the things you're good at and things you think are interesting but maybe don't know much about yet. Then see if there are jobs that might fit those skills. Ignore whether you love to do those things or not - passion for something doesn't mean it's a good idea to pick it for a career necessarily. You can always take your passions with you. Pick a job that needs the skills you're good at and will sustain you well. Usually the better you get at something that also fits your temperament, the more you enjoy doing it over time.
If it has any interest to you, definitely don't ignore trades. They are underestimated and can be very fulfilling as jobs go.
Again... for what that's worth... This is just me. I'd suggest you take a nugget or two, if that, and mix that with advice from several other sources to figure out your path. I guess that's obvious though.

One reply also helped me remember the reason for some of my low feelings. I lost 4 close family members, 2 close co-workers and 2 friends within 4 years not long ago. Honestly, there's hardly anybody left (2 siblings) and they have their own thing going on in other places so it's more of a formality than family at this point. Difficult to find purpose anymore and I'm not the kind of person to either find a new friend nor a spouse or anything. The traits of my autism preclude that.
So I'm pretty much just taking up space, putting meals together when I'm hungry and spending time on hobbies (I have several). I am constantly spending time studying new fields and new things about old fields, but in my position that's kind of an empty distraction. This makes a guy feel older than you'd expect I guess, but I am old enough to be old.
No big deal - I'll just keep on doing that and coast to the finish line. In the meantime, maybe some interesting things will occur that I can witness.

Anyways, thanks for the exchange folks. I'm probably off to my corner now.
Best wishes.

 

[Wolfsage]

Depends on whether preparing is your style or not. For those who feel peace in preparation, then preparing for the end satisfies. For those who feel peace in living in the moment, then not preparing satisfies.

The answer to your question is not about how one lives in relationship to an uncertain future, but how one's style affects the present.

I'm a planner, but much of my planning comes from an enjoyment of planning, not necessarily as a means to control (despite what my embarrassingly ignorant official diagnosis of OCPD suggests). But my youngest kiddo prefers to live in the present and make dark jokes about armageddon, so for him, it's living every day as if it's the last.

I do the same.

 

[FIVER]

Apologies for the length here, and the mood of despair contained within too. I'm kind of freaking out a little and hard to abridge. Much appreciation for any who take the time to read it all.

I haven't visited here for a minute so please excuse if some of this is old news.
I am an old man so I've had decades to learn how to cope with living in the world. 40 years ago my autism was pretty obvious, but today I am actually pretty good at conversation even though it wears me out and I am now good enough at the "social graces" that I can get by. My stims are restricted to private rooms, etc. In other words, I have learned to acceptably mask and cope. I eventually found a job that pays pretty well, allows me to just do my work virtually alone all day long and leverages my advantage of being able to concentrate better than most on small details.

I have always been quite a bit better than average, possibly very good (difficult to self-assess), at, with no fear, taking complex things "in" and assembling them first in my mind and then in the physical world. This has been a great advantage at my job. The process of doing this in my mind just happens all day long and never stops. If this was a problem I would have driven me crazy by now, so one can assume it's no big deal at my age. It's a very helpful advantage at my job. I can't remember the name of a person or movie or song more than a half day of first learning it (for example), but my mind has evidently traded that ability for one of assembling things together.

However, and it has already occurred to some of you readers, that this can be a frequent problem at home. It's not quite the same as "perfectionism", but I do have a problem sometimes doing simple house projects and stuff just because, since the complexity thinking thing never really stops, projects stumble way too frequently before I start because I can always think of some step that happens later which I'm not quite prepared to get through yet.

This is all just background. The current problem has to do with my stance regarding current society.

In case you've been living under a rock: The big news is that the world has gone insane this past year in eleventeen ways. Since I am adept at thinking about everything several layers deep whether I like to or not, this happens when assessing world events as well. It goes something like: thing A happens, which was from cause 1, which flowed out from cause 2 and cause 3, and none of this would have been possible without thing B and C happening, which both come from cause 4 and 5, and cause 6 also contributed to thing C, etc. etc.
The thing is, it seems so obvious to me that almost everyone on the planet from king to peasant doesn't bother to think past the top layer of anything, ever. This could be my own perception and not quite reality, but I tell you that's what it looks like to me. And of course my processing of this is an extra thick layer cake as well, whether I want it or not. Anyway, my point is that every single reaction, lie, maneuver and stupid decision you've heard about from the regular sources this whole past year is mostly caused by and certainly wouldn't have been possible without people from top to bottom, stem to stern, habitually thinking things through no more deeply than one layer in. It's no wonder that everything is falling apart right in front of our eyes all at the same time.

But today is a landmark day. When I got home after work, I tend to talk to myself for a few minutes after I get out of the truck. It's not as much thinking things out loud but more a kind of free-associating vocalization of my feelings. My most common stim. Usually it's just a repeated word or two that goes on for an hour or so, but today it started out that way and I could hear that my voice sounded a bit more distressed. Not long into it I found myself talking in truncated sentences to my deceased Mother (who I still miss profoundly after several years) and saying I was so tired of everything and I'm just ready to go. I felt the core distress, but after voicing it I also felt a bit of relief. This wasn't suicidal thinking but rather felt more like acceptance I guess. Either way, it made me a little concerned. I haven't had time to think this through much yet. But I thought maybe posting this here might be a step into that and I wouldn't mind hearing some thoughts in reply, so feel free.

My first layer in: I kind of feel like I can see the writing on the wall. It doesn't take a genius to look at what's been happening and tell from a mile away that it is extremely likely that we're only at the beginning of this. It's not like leaders, owners and their underlings will suddenly start acting with any wisdom. That's fantasy. And in case you're wondering, NO this isn't partisan politics or something. I pretty much despise the way political leaders from all sides have been incompetently & short-sightedly messing things up for decades. I'm an equal-opportunity complainer. Side effect of being old. Anyway, I am pretty good at thinking complex systems through and I do not see any way we don't end up going off the rails in 8 different ways at once and having things end up in a very rough condition. And even though I say it's just getting started, it looks to me that it's all going to come at us VERY rapidly. This isn't run-of-the-mill pessimism. When you haven't experienced disaster, and maybe even if you have, it's a human survival method to think "It won't happen to me".

Humans have the potential for such great things. But here we are, worldwide, cowardly, lazily squandering every bit of that potential for some short-term, reactionary dopamine hit. Like a bunch of junkies. Honestly, if we end up extincting ourselves from this, we (as a whole) deserve every bit of it, don't we?

In my mind, a picture that fits how I feel is what a lone, limping zebra must feel when it sees five lions coming in to pounce. I can't see an escape route, and today I realized that something shifted in a big way for me. I am really, really tired of the worry and honestly, profoundly disappointed with my fellow man. I'm not sure yet how I feel about it. Kinda hoping to get some other perspectives. I'd like to hear how other autistics are feeling these days. We're usually not great at dealing with people at best, and lately, factions have been changing the rules before we can even read them. For us, that's impossible to navigate. Anybody been through something like this lately and figured out how to come out uneaten on the other side yet?

I wish I could think of a joke to lighten the mood here at the end, but I'm not good at remembering those either.

 

[GadAbout]

Hi Vince. I'm old too.

Something I learned in my study of cognitive psychology: Never mind how TRUE your beliefs about the world are - ask instead, how USEFUL are they?

If a belief (such as, the world has gone to hell) results in good outcomes, that's great, hang on to that one. But if a belief (such as, the world has gone to hell) just causes depression and inaction, jettison it. Never mind if it's true. Is it helpful? Does it make your life better, or the world better, or make you feel better? If not, jettison it.