Theory of Mind - how to explain it

[hatfullofrain]

Theory of mind to me means understanding that just because you know or aware of something it doesn't mean that the other person will understand or be aware of that thing.

I've always had a problem with only half explaining what I mean because I feel like what I'm trying to say is so obvious.

 

[Els]

See, this is the kind of thing that would never occur to an allistic

Yes, "why" is a question that's too often overlooked but gives interesting informations

 

[Jonn]

That is probably more based on their feelings (and those a priori).

"After their reaction,..." is a posteriori.

I am not sure I know what you mean.
What is based on feelings?
Are you saying I am interpreting their feelings?

I am quite good at reading body language, especially for an aspie.
I find working out the cause of a person's reaction, to what I have said, to be quite simple.

 

[Jonn]

I've always had a problem with only half explaining what I mean because I feel like what I'm trying to say is so obvious.

That has been a problem of mine, also. I make a suggestion, thinking it was obvious that I was looking for others to contribute, but they never do, as an example. NTs can be quite dumb, that way.

 

[Crossbreed]

I am not sure I know what you mean.
What is based on feelings?
Are you saying I am interpreting their feelings?

I was saying that the things you were trying to anticipate were subjective feelings, not objective facts. The reason why NTs can anticipate another NT's subjective feelings is because they commonly share them. Autistics can anticipate another autistic's subjective feelings for the similar reasons. Autistics & NTs do not have that common bond, so they are less intuitive toward each other.

Objective facts do not require the same intuition.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~​

"Are you pondering what I'm pondering, Pinky...?"
"Yes, Brain, but where are we going to find ice cream at this hour?"

 

[Alexej]

I suppose what I find difficult is when I do or say something and then I see the implication of it, in the response of the person I am with; whether my wife, my children or friends.

I do not see the effect of what I do, but when it all falls apart I can see how things would turn out that way.

I do not know if this is that I do not think ahead in terms of people emotional responses of people - which I seldom do anyway -or that I can work it out but for me there are a million possible responses and I have NO idea which one will happen.

 

[Kalinychta]

That has been a problem of mine, also. I make a suggestion, thinking it was obvious that I was looking for others to contribute, but they never do, as an example. NTs can be quite dumb, that way.

But that’s rather the point, isn’t it? Just because something is obvious to you doesn’t mean that it is obvious.

 

[Ylva]

NTs can be quite dumb, that way.

While true, this is not a useful fault analysis.

I try to think of it as "NT thoughts are made of cultural imperatives from many different historical periods and as such do not present as a connected whole."

 

[Jonn]

But that’s rather the point, isn’t it? Just because something is obvious to you doesn’t mean that it is obvious.

That was the point I was making.
Lack of "Theory of Mind" in action/evidence.
I am more direct these days.

 

[Alexej]

I just came across this one

I need to watch it again

 

[Jonn]

I just came across this one

I need to watch it again

An excellent video.

But the problem is, I have difficulty predicting people's actions/thoughts.

Yes, we need "Intellectual Bridges" as a substitute for intuitive understanding.
It is a much slower process.

Lies:
NTs don't have a problem.
Auties don't understand why it is necessary.

Biological basis for Theory of Mind.

Evidence that animals have the very beginnings of ToM.

2 Theory of Minds.
-An automatic one,
-And another one involving language. An explicit conscious Tom. This is what I have called "Intellectual bridges".

ToM and empathy quite separate.

Empathy isn't missing, in those on the spectrum.
"Mentalising" is.

An excellent video.

 

[Alexej]

An excellent video.

But the problem is, I have difficulty predicting people's actions/thoughts.

Yes, we need "Intellectual Bridges" as a substitute for intuitive understanding.
It is a much slower process.

Lies:
NTs don't have a problem.
Auties don't understand why it is necessary.

Biological basis for Theory of Mind.

Evidence that animals have the very beginnings of ToM.

2 Theory of Minds.
-An automatic one,
-And another one involving language. An explicit conscious Tom. This is what I have called "Intellectual bridges".

ToM and empathy quite separate.

Empathy isn't missing, in those on the spectrum.
"Mentalising" is.

An excellent video.

good summary of the video - thanks

 

[SDRSpark]

An excellent video.

But the problem is, I have difficulty predicting people's actions/thoughts.

Yes, we need "Intellectual Bridges" as a substitute for intuitive understanding.
It is a much slower process.

Lies:
NTs don't have a problem.
Auties don't understand why it is necessary.

Biological basis for Theory of Mind.

Evidence that animals have the very beginnings of ToM.

2 Theory of Minds.
-An automatic one,
-And another one involving language. An explicit conscious Tom. This is what I have called "Intellectual bridges".

ToM and empathy quite separate.

Empathy isn't missing, in those on the spectrum.
"Mentalising" is.

An excellent video.

Your summary made a lot more sense after I went back and watched the video (actually it made the video make a lot more sense too - I had difficulty following her - thanks for that!)

There are some areas here where I have difficulty and some where I don't (for example, I can't comprehend the motivations of others if they're different from how I would think/what I would do. It just does not compute. This actually means I have a propensity to get into trouble because I just cannot understand people whose intentions are not so good.)

I don't think it's true though that autistic people cannot lie. That's a skill you can learn just like anything else.

 

[Jonn]

Your summary made a lot more sense after I went back and watched the video (actually it made the video make a lot more sense too - I had difficulty following her - thanks for that!)

There are some areas here where I have difficulty and some where I don't (for example, I can't comprehend the motivations of others if they're different from how I would think/what I would do. It just does not compute. This actually means I have a propensity to get into trouble because I just cannot understand people whose intentions are not so good.)

I don't think it's true though that autistic people cannot lie. That's a skill you can learn just like anything else.

Difficulty predicting how someone is going to react is a problem for most aspies.
Obviously you do get better when you know the person you are relating to. But so often, it is like going through a minefield/minDfield.

I am good at working out a person's thought process after the event through their actions/body-language.

There was no suggestion those on the spectrum can't lie. It is axiomatic that we can. It was simply pointed out that it is not in our nature to do so. A natural inclination to lie is part of NT neurology, not ours.

 

[SDRSpark]

Difficulty predicting how someone is going to react is a problem for most aspies.
Obviously you do get better when you know the person you are relating to. But so often, it is like going through a minefield/minDfield.

I am good at working out a person's thought process after the event through their actions/body-language.

There was no suggestion those on the spectrum can't lie. It is axiomatic that we can. It was simply pointed out that it is not in our nature to do so. A natural inclination to lie is part of NT neurology, not ours.

You know I have realized that I have a lot of trouble knowing what people are thinking and how I should react in the moment. Afterwards, I get really upset with myself for not being able to figure it out at the time.

 

[Jonn]

You know I have realized that I have a lot of trouble knowing what people are thinking and how I should react in the moment. Afterwards, I get really upset with myself for not being able to figure it out at the time.

It is silly to blame yourself about something you were born with.
I don't blame myself for having social limitations.

 

[SDRSpark]

It is silly to blame yourself about something you were born with.
I don't blame myself for having social limitations.

I hope someday I get there. I only just recently dug in and realized/accepted that I almost definitely am autistic and what that means...after years of that happening and blaming myself for it.

 

[Alexej]

I hope someday I get there. I only just recently dug in and realized/accepted that I almost definitely am autistic and what that means...after years of that happening and blaming myself for it.

It is quite a journey to come to acceptance that this is the way it is. I know it took me quite a while and I was quite resistant to the idea of being on the spectrum.

 

[SDRSpark]

It is quite a journey to come to acceptance that this is the way it is. I know it took me quite a while and I was quite resistant to the idea of being on the spectrum.

I'm not at all resistant to the idea that I'm autistic, I just have a hard time not blaming myself for things are probably due to neurodivergence. Like I know better, but I still think it's my fault.

 

[Jonn]

You know I have realized that I have a lot of trouble knowing what people are thinking and how I should react in the moment. Afterwards, I get really upset with myself for not being able to figure it out at the time.

It's not our fault. <shrug>