The origins of the universe

[JohnH]

I agree with so much of what you said until you get to the math part. Math is the only universal language in the universe. For example regardless how it is expressed the circumference of a circle is pi*r^2.

Actually that's the area of a circle. Circumference is pi*d, or 2*pi*r.

 

[AsheSkyler]

Math is us mapping the order of the universe--it is universal because we are part of the universe, and not separate from it. Perfect circles, such as those you get from pi*r^2, exists as a concept in the noosphere. It's a wonderful language, and it's amazing when it works, but it's dependent on people getting it right.

I understand that you will likely not see this from my perspective, and that's fine. This was kind of my point--math is a religion to people who practice math. To me, it's as much a matter of practical application and perspective as "religions" are to religious people. I'm being deliberately provocative here for the sake of discussion, and I expect opposition! Because I'm attacking your belief system, and you can't imagine things any other way. And you "know" you're right, and anything else is wrong. Correct if me if wrong here.

Just saying the math can be used to create theories about "what is", but it doesn't make your perspective superior just because it's math, and you love it. It's your love that really counts. If you're walking around thinking your math skills mean you're a notch up the evolutionary chain compared to non-mathers, well, that's ego at work.

You agreed with me because I was on your side of the "creation debate" until I countered your side, too. That's my point. There are no sides--only oneness. Pick a side, you get disagreement--it's in the act of picking, and deciding there are sides.

What if math isn't a religion but a tangible substance? Like time. There are many ways to measure time, but it's not like time itself necessarily a made-up thing. (Or maybe everything really has happened all at once and was completed in a fraction of instance, but all our perceptions makes it look like it's taking a really long time.) In this universe, math could be the base coding that determines what happens, much like all the binary in a computer or DNA in living thing. Perhaps it's the building block that determines how things are to work? Perhaps it's the building block of all universes that changes and adapts between realms, so math that works here won't work elsewhere (like how you can't get Microsoft to work on Mac half the time without it being a huge pain in the butt. So I'm told.) Eh, that's how math makes sense to me anyway, because math at it's core still works correctly regardless if we figure it out right. I guess we could even say that math is like the Tao in that respect. The eternal Tao is the Tao that cannot be named, after all, and it still goes on working like it's supposed to whether we fathom it correctly or not. (My jury is still out on whose bright idea it was to chunk Greek letters into the mix, as if it wasn't complicated enough!) And someday we may be even be able to work out all the impurities/limitations so we can make perfect circles and spheres! I'm sucker for glass balls and marbles, they're lovely to look at. Admittedly, I prefer the imperfect ones for now because they're the ones that make prism effects and reflections (if I remember their details correctly).

Not saying you're wrong in any way. Just a tangent my mind wandered off to.

 

[Daniel]

Perhaps it's the building block that determines how things are to work? Perhaps it's the building block of all universes that changes and adapts between realms, so math that works here won't work elsewhere (like how you can't get Microsoft to work on Mac half the time without it being a huge pain in the butt. So I'm told.) Eh, that's how math makes sense to me anyway, because math at it's core still works correctly regardless if we figure it out right. I guess we could even say that math is like the Tao in that respect. The eternal Tao is the Tao that cannot be named, after all, and it still goes on working like it's supposed to whether we fathom it correctly or not.

This is like what I want to express... Math is a signifier, we can use it to signify relationships we observe. Those relationships, that order--yes, it is there whether or not we perceive it. We use math to communicate ideas of order to each other. Logic is one of the tools we use to perceive things. Wipe out the biosphere and there is no noosphere.

Anyway--yes, the origins of the universe are pretty fun to think about!

 

[AsheSkyler]

This is like what I want to express... Math is a signifier, we can use it to signify relationships we observe. Those relationships, that order--yes, it is there whether or not we perceive it. We use math to communicate ideas of order to each other. Logic is one of the tools we use to perceive things. Wipe out the biosphere and there is no noosphere.

What I don't care for is that people will swallow fantastic notions that are entirely speculative if they are put forth by scientists, while the same person will criticize other points of view that make sense to other people because "there's no evidence".

Anyway--yes, the origins of the universe are pretty fun to think about!

Ahhh, got it, got it, got it. I'm fairly certain I understand your stance then, just hard for me to articulate it. Something along the lines of "no matter how sound the theory or method, always understand it may be tainted by human limitations" or something like that.

Have you ever done much of a study on the theories of creation? Just for fun, I once looked up modern evolution/scientific/Big Bang Theory, and Christian/Jew/Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, old religious Taoist, and a few pagan and Native American beliefs and compared them. Even with something as neverending as Buddhism, they all followed the same pattern of "void, cold watery planet, sun and stars, land masses, plants, critters (typically from the sea), and then humans". Of course, the biggest difference was how many fantastical beings were involved and died along the way, the old Norse had an exceptionally bloody creation story. I know that's somewhat limited to Earth, but I found it nifty they all pretty much agreed with each other.

 

[Daniel]

Yes--I like cross-cultural studies, and teasing out the similarities.

The other thing with theory/method is the observation that our current accepted and "heretical" views are expression of our present consciousness, and it's humbling to think that what humanity is capable of perceiving down the road will exceed what we're capable of now.

Thoughts like that makes me embrace growing old! I'm looking forward to see what will our technology will be like fifty years from now. Hope I make it!

 

[AsheSkyler]

I want to be the old cookie and cane wield grandma who sits on her front porch and probably complains about modern technology making life too easy for kids these days. And I intend to make it to 100 just for the birthday card "if she's heard it once, she's heard it 100 times, happy birthday".

 

[Keith]

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