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The Autistic "Rationale-dependant" thinking style; thoughts and personal experiences?

This is why I prefer the spiritually oriented approach. As such, I am free to consider and adopt any scientific data I collect, because the spiritual reasoner does not discount the validity of scientific evidence, has no reason or obligation to do so.

Meanwhile, the scientific observer is beholden to his creed to accept only scientifically validated evidence, thereby forfeiting the benefit of strictly spiritually discerned evidence. Therefore, the spiritual approach encompasses a far broader range of information than the scientific. So, the strict scientist is important and to be commended for virtuous discipline, but one wouldn’t turn to him for a full bodied understanding of a universe composed of both spiritual and scientific elements.
There are several logical errors in this.

You're denying someone who believes in the scientific methods the possibility of spirituality. Given that you'd just claimed access to both, it's a bit unfair.

The split (somewhat simplified) is that the scientific method requires objective evidence. It places no restrictions on the user, provided they follow the method. And of course that restriction doesn't apply to people who take advantages of the products of the scientific method.

Much of what you call "spiritually discerned evidence" is probably not relevant to science, but the are no special rules for the source of data provided it can be reliably measured.

The last bit, about the greater amount of information combines mutually exclusive elements. Simplifying a little, the important resource for learning and discovery isn't the quantity of information, but its quality. I suspect (but just based on the words you used) that "spiritually discerned" is effectively a synonym for "not valid for scientific use". The extra quantity of information is real, but it's only relevant in the subjective domain.

Similarly your wording redefines (via equivocation) the universe as being composed of both spiritual and scientific elements. The "science" version of the word universe includes intelligent agents and their thoughts and actions, but it doesn't include any spiritual elements beyond that. Anything that isn't objectively verifiable isn't there - so , for example, meditation is in, prayer is in, religions are in, moral codes are in, but "capital-g god" is not.

Of course there's much more to the subjective world than the single example, but the parts that aren't "grey areas" typically aren't difficult to agree on.
 
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There are several logical errors in this.

You're denying someone who believes in the scientific methods the possibility of spirituality. Given that you'd just claimed access to both, it's a bit unfair.

The split (somewhat simplified) is that the scientific method requires objective evidence. It places no restrictions on the user, provided they follow the method. And of course that restriction doesn't apply to people who take advantages of the products of the scientific method.

Much of what you call "spiritually discerned evidence" is probably not relevant to science, but the are no special rules for the source of data provided it can be reliably measured.

The last bit, about the greater amount of information combines mutually exclusive elements. Simplifying a little, the important resource for learning and discovery isn't the quantity of information, but its quality. I suspect (but just based on the words you used) that "spiritually discerned" is effectively a synonym for "not valid for scientific use". The extra quantity of information is real, but it's only relevant in the subjective domain.

Similarly your wording redefines (via equivocation) the universe as being composed of both spiritual and scientific elements. The "science" version of the word universe includes intelligent agents and their thoughts and actions, but it doesn't include any spiritual elements beyond that. Anything that isn't objectively verifiable isn't there - so , for example, meditation is in, prayer is in, religions are in, moral codes are in, but "capital-g god" is not.

Of course there's much more to the subjective world than the single example, but the parts that aren't "grey areas" typically aren't difficult to agree on.
There just aren't measuring tools to measure everything. That doesn't mean the thing doesn't exist. Just that we haven't the measuring tools to discern and detect everything. But we have our own consciousness. We have that. "The spiritual" isn't really a shared journey. It's like being born. You are born alone. It's just you experiencing being born. Just as experiencing anything "Spiritual" it's your experience. No one can share it with you, not really. They can have a similar spiritual experience and you can compare notes. Does that make it not real? Of course not. That's like saying love isn't real because you can't measure it. You don't try. It's a different set of measuring tools, internally perceived, that we recognise "love". Just like any "vision" "dream" or internal communication. It's shared via communicating it, but it's not experienced by all the listeners. That's why its silly to track, to chart, "the Spiritual" using your scientific criteria. You can't do it
How can you tell if a near death experiencer ACTUALLY met Jesus/Yeshua? You could observe changes in their demeanour and attitude. Perhaps they went into the experience terrified and they came back with a new sense of calm and connection and meaning.
And there are THOUSANDS of these accounts. YouTube is loaded with them. People write books about there experiences. People HEAL "miraculously" it's just something you need to look into, if you are interested. Like any scientist. Only the measuring tools you use are your own perceptive abilities. No difference from every scientific discipline and yet, different parameters.
Your "scientific" model of inquiry poo poos anecdotal. The "spiritual" seeker does not. The spiritual seeker listens to people's stories. People's stories matter. People have honed abilities. Like it says in the bible "Those with eyes to see and ears to hear". It's not talking about the physical ones. It's an inner perceptual lens that is, or it isn't, yet. It's like maturity or brain development. It's either happened, or it hasn't yet. You either understand it, or you don't, yet. It's not a judgement thing, it just is, or it isn't. Just like either you've experienced "love" or you haven't yet. Poo pooing the spiritual would be like poo pooing love, because you haven't experienced it yet. No one can do it for you. It's your own experience that gives you the awareness, the comprehension, not a scientist. You. So no one can really convince you if you haven't had the experiences to give you those "Eyes to see and ears to hear".
 
Sad to hear of your health issues, @Neri . Nothing demonstrates our connection to the physical like a sick body trying to power a busy brain.

I also used the word ‘paradigm’ in this thread, and have wondered at the word’s broader usages. I don’t pretend to have any authority for a definition, but maybe it would make sense if I define my own usage. Please don’t think I’m talking down to anyone, I’m efforting to be precise in my own mind.

When I am refining my paradigm, it is intended to be universal; that is my whole purpose in assembling it in the first place. Because, if lines A and B are truly parallel right in front of me, then they will still be separated by that precise distance beyond my eyes’ perception. If one’s global paradigm is correct, you can go to different vantage points along these rays and collect the same measurement. If you find a different measurement, it’s back to the drawing board.

But, as @Neri would remind us, word meanings change over time. When I hear the word used now, it often seems a noun for a framework with only local applicability. To me, the concept of a ‘local paradigm’ is useless and self-defeating. I get that a real estate developer might find it useful to speak of the paradigm of her proposed Richie Village, upon which paradigm hangs all the architecture and layout. Sure.

But the person trying to make sense of an unimaginably complex universe has little use for a local paradigm; they need an understanding which applies to both ends of the universe. (See what I did there?). The other-minded ontologist is destined for the mires.

Back to the present conversation…
This is why I prefer the spiritually oriented approach. As such, I am free to consider and adopt any scientific data I collect, because the spiritual reasoner does not discount the validity of scientific evidence, has no reason or obligation to do so.

Meanwhile, the scientific observer is beholden to his creed to accept only scientifically validated evidence, thereby forfeiting the benefit of strictly spiritually discerned evidence. Therefore, the spiritual approach encompasses a far broader range of information than the scientific. So, the strict scientist is important and to be commended for virtuous discipline, but one wouldn’t turn to him for a full bodied understanding of a universe composed of both spiritual and scientific elements.

All of this might be profitably considered when about to betray condescending thoughts about how the spiritual person is ‘satisfied’ or willing to ‘settle’ for what might be considered an inferior dataset. Because that attitude is born of a woefully incomplete data set.

But some people don’t have whatever it takes to free themselves from the strictly scientific approach, and I don’t have a problem with that. Just as every driver must pilot their own vehicle, each seeker has to operate within their own paradigm. I, personally, have no bone to pick with the guy actually driving the speed limit on the freeway… as long as he stays in the slow lane and doesn’t flip me off for blowing by him in the fast lane.

See what I did in that last paragraph there? Maybe one single reader will read it and understand what the objective spiritual seeker endures regularly from the scientific crowd. ‘No, no; we fully respect your right to be less than you could be.’ While my pleasant sparring partner earlier in the thread betrayed a less-than attitude towards spiritual understanding, I enjoyed sharpening blades with him because I didn’t sense that sort of personal judgment.

‘Wait!’ I hear you cry. ‘Did that guy just use the words ‘objective’ and ‘spiritual’ in the same phrase? Call the logic guards and word police!’

This was the point I was trying to make to @tazz . One can do both, and chew gum at the same time. As a Christian, I constantly hear garbage doctrine (in my personal parlance, that means there is no way it is consistent with the Bible) from some excited seeker; unfortunately, that’s part of the Protestant landscape. As a teaching elder, it sometimes fell to me to disabuse the congregant of their confusion… meaning, I have experience dealing with the breached-dam excitement often associated with ‘new’ heresies. It’s even more trying than discussing politics with a first-year polisci student. I understand that this phenomenon is Not restricted to spiritual thinkers, and one cannot currently turn on the TV without seeing people all in an ecstatic rage over something of which they demonstrate no understanding. Those people were raised in a world enamored of the scientific paradigm, overwhelmed by emotion. Many scientists, likewise, have allowed their social instincts to manhandle their reason.

All of which is to say that humans, in my estimation, do not typically strive to assemble a global paradigm, rather settle for localized understandings which help them get through the day. The spiritual investigation is by no means haphazard, and properly strives after an understanding that encompasses both the physical and spiritual realms. Because, after all, there’s only one universe and its physical and spiritual aspects are inextricably linked.
Thanks. :-) Yeah. A bit inconvenient. I got sick just before christmas. Was supposed to be going interstate to see my partner's family, but, alas, too sick with an infective carona virus, so I'll be going nowhere. Sigh. A quiet staycation for me. I guess the autistic in me, isn't too perturbed by getting to stay home and avoid socializing. Maybe being sick is getting me off the hook in a way that my Autistic brain says "YES!"
 
Also, what would be an example of something that is "strictly spiritually discerned evidence" that isn't "scientifically validated evidence"?
I’m afraid I’ll have to go with another story, this time about me personally.

In a converted garage at the pastor’s house, a celebration for those who had completed a challenging course of study. I absolutely hate parties, lock up like a clam, but found myself in a lonely chair, trying to blend with the wallpaper. Across the room and outside my audio, four young ladies in a serious discussion. Didn’t know them, I don’t read faces, had no clue.

Noticing that one of them was pregnant, I knew that the baby had been miraculously healed of something. What struck me was the force with which I knew it; the force of the knowledge was disconcerting, to say the least. I immediately hunted down the pastor and related what had happened. Pastor’s palm stopped just short of my forehead. “God didn’t tell you that so you could tell me!”

Back to the garage, the extreme discomfort of approaching a group of four women. Just interrupted as politely as I could and told her that the Lord had healed her child. Mortified, I immediately left the party with my tail between my legs. That was Friday night.

Sunday mornings, I’d sneak out to the car after everyone was seated, change out of my usher blazer and into comfy listening sleeves. Pregnant lady rushes up behind me in the parking lot, overjoyed. Pointlessly thanking me, her baby was alive! At the party, she had just been explaining to her friends that she had finally broken faith that her baby was still alive, it had been so long since it had moved. She had an appointment for Monday to have it confirmed. At home after the party, the baby had started moving again.

An extreme example of spiritual discernment. But that’s not the story, just the punchline. The story is that, on my hour drive to the party, I was trying to summarize and synthesize the study course just completed. I reacted to myself because of the arrogance of my prayer, which itself had come to me unexpectedly. I asked to be used as a mouthpiece, that I would hear and speak his words.

The upshot for me was a serious degradation of my daily walk, which took so long to recover from that I honestly don’t know if I ever did. That kind of thing isn’t as heady as one might expect. And no, I certainly don’t live a life of such extreme occurrences. And I am well aware that no scientist will risk his reputation by giving any of this any credence whatsoever.

Likewise, I am just as certain that this was a critical moment in many lives. I discussed my son’s non-spina bifida; those things stick deep. The mother, her friends standing there, the mother’s mother who was driving her to the doctor, the pastor… none of them forgot that incident, and I am confident it impacted their faith.

I was at first ashamed at the prayer I heard myself praying. Besides, why in the world would I ask to be speaking out when I hate being seen? The need for that prayer was also a spiritual revelation, foreign to my own way. Certainly not scientifically verifiable.

As I’ve already belabored, one doesn’t accept these things without question, but this miracle stands up to biblical scrutiny, so my conscience is clear. The Lord has been known on more than one occasion to speak through an ass.
 
You're denying someone who believes in the scientific methods the possibility of spirituality. Given that you'd just claimed access to both, it's a bit unfair.
No, I'm not. I think @tazz was bothered by this as well. (Anything we say about either spirituality or science in general is going to suffer for our inability/unwillingness to operate without generalities, which are always suspect.)

The scientist is free to go home and practice whatever belief system she desires. But, in the workplace, she had better pay homage to the scientific method. Therefore, the results of scientific endeavor will informed by the scientist's training rather than their spiritual leanings.

Let's be practical. Take, for instance, the politically conservative university professor. "No problem," say his progressive workmates. "Go ahead; you have free speech. Step right out there and tell us what you think." Unless the conservative professor is terminally stupid, he will keep his opinions to himself when in the workplace. It's no different with scientists.

The spiritual seeker, on the other hand, is not concerned with grants or public opinion. Notice that this phenomenon occurs with alarming frequency within the spiritual academic community, but I do not include those professionals in this conversation. Well done, because the current state of the church reflects the havoc caused by those considerations.
 
What's biblical scrutiny?
Sorry. Biblical scrutiny might be defined as holding a truth claim up to the truths laid out in the Bible. If the truth claim is not consistent with the Bible, it doesn't stand up to biblical scrutiny.

Quick example.
The Bible talks about people operating under the Spirit's direction. There are congregations that use these Scriptures to justify congregants falling into trances in the aisle, barking like dogs and crowing like roosters. However, Scripture also states clearly that God is orderly and directs us to keep our meetings orderly. They counterclaim that these people are under the influence of the Holy Spirit, but the Scripture teaches that people in that condition are still in control of themselves, and are expected to exercise that control. So, I don't judge the hearts of the participants, but can say categorically that their practice does not stand up to biblical scrutiny.
 
@The Pandector

You're protecting a "straw man". I'm not sure why, but FYI I've seen that "context-switching" style before.

So lets go back to basics:

The "scientific method" as we're using those words in our discussion, is a technical system.

It can be applied in a tiny scale, e.g. as I used to see on afternoon children's TV shows ( I don't watch now).
There are no formal requirements that it's done by professionals. No external approvals are needed, nor public approval.

Those things come in to play at scale of course: NASA; large-scale commercial research; Universities, etc.
But in those cases they are a side effect of operating at a larger scale. The method exists independently. They choose to use it because it works well.

Of course it can be misapplied as a side-effect of human factors
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replication_crisisbut that has nothing to do with a Subjective/Objective discussion.

The core of this remains that things that can't be measured are "outside the system".
That's independent of the strength of the belief of people who want different rules.
This separation isn't likely to change because it's known to be essential to the usefulness of the system.

FWIW that's why it's so consistently defended. Every time the rules are relaxed, serious problems occur.
One of which can be found at the link I provided above.


An aside: this is interesting:
the current state of the church
I included the link to the replication crisis because you wrote that.

The "soft sciences" are in quite poor shape at the moment. Probably for the same reason you wrote that paragraph above. Possibly manifested in similar ways.

Some people you might not expect to be interested are talking about the forgotten benefits of the role played by traditional religion in society. If I see an interesting link, I'll send it to you via DM (it won't be soon, but I'll keep looking).
 
Thanks for taking the time to answer.

So biblical scrutiny means comparing what someone claims with the stories in the bible.

Were the stories in the bible scrutinised and if so, how?
 
IDK if all autistics think this way. A lot do, yes. But logic isn't always obvious. It could appear one is reacting based on their feelings when in actuality, there is an underlying logic based on things you don't know about either in their past or things you've not considered. Also, meltdowns could look very feelings-based. The perception of logic depends on a lot of factors like culture, accumulated knowledge, intellectual development or IQ, processing speed, learning disabilities, etc. I think it is best to be cautious about segregating folks into logical and illogical categories, as well as "having a heart" vs "emotionless robot." I think those splits could contribute to the double empathy problem where misunderstanding leads to judgment instead of trying to understand.
 
You're protecting a "straw man". I'm not sure why, but FYI I've seen that "context-switching" style before.
Don't know about protecting, but yeah. We've been dealing with two straw men, the strict scientist and the spiritual seeker. Both are straw men, which allow us to discuss complex issues without constantly admitting that there are many exceptions and no single individual is really like that. We talk about the average family, but can't find one with 2.3 children. I acknowledged this to you back just a bit...
(Anything we say about either spirituality or science in general is going to suffer for our inability/unwillingness to operate without generalities, which are always suspect.)

It catches my eye that you see this as a context-switching style to which you're wise. Sounds like a none-too-subtle warning not to try any fancy tricks. Analogies, for instance, put one set of facts into another context to demonstrate the relationship between the data points doesn't change. Maybe you view this - as well as using useful generalities - as some sort of sophistry. I don't feel that way.
 
I thought I'd post this, for those following along and maybe interested in an example of what I've referred to, repeatedly, in this thread.
I just found this one. This sort of story is not, particularly, uncommon.
 
So, just for contrast, because these experiences are not at all uniform. I'm adding this one in as well.

 
There are no formal requirements that it's done by professionals. No external approvals are needed, nor public approval.
(Speaking of science.)
Please don't take this curtly, but I don't need a lecture on the scientific method. I employed it professionally most every day for over twenty years, so am comfortable with the approach. I only wish more people felt strongly about applying the scientific method in daily life, but that may be the autist speaking.

You say,
The core of this remains that things that can't be measured are "outside the system".
That's independent of the strength of the belief of people who want different rules.

FTR - I included the comment about professionals to acknowledge that the spiritual community, just as with the scientific community I had been knocking, is also subject to authorities making judgements based on less than the purest motives. I didn't say anything about professional standing being required to utilize the scientific method.

I'd love to disagree that the strength of the belief has nothing to do with what is observable, but that reaches over into a discussion of faith, which isn't in the conversation. So I'll just point out that I never said anything about the strength of someone's belief altering what is observable to the scientific mind.

As far as the need for approval to do science, I addressed that as well. Not much science is done these days in the crazy scientist's basement. Government and institutional grants and funding are the lifeblood of scientific research. That money comes with more strings than all the philharmonics in London. Scientists work at the pleasure of the money people.

I don't blame a scientist who wants to work on his own project, but takes a job in a different specialty. That's the paycheck. The strawman spiritual truth seeker is not employed in the field, has no concern about pleasing financiers. This is the stark contrast in operating arenas that I was trying to demonstrate.
 

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