Some children may "outgrow" Autism

[Nervous Rex]

Very interesting discussion, @Rich Allen. Thanks for posting it.

I agree with most of the sediments expressed here: If you're high-functioning enough, you can learn to mimic NTs. E.g., My counselor suspected autism when I first met with him, but the fact that I regularly made eye contact threw him off for a bit.

I just had this discussion with my counselor last week. Going through the formal diagnosis process, I said that I know I'm delayed in certain areas (social, emotional, etc. - the usual), but that with enough time and work, I will catch up. He explained that when I consciously study and analyze people and use game theory to understand and predict them in order to get by, that's not the NT-style socialization that most people do subconsciously or as second-nature. He told me that autism is defined as an unalterable, fundamental neural condition (he is careful not to say "deficiency" or "handicap" and corrects me immediately if I refer to myself as "broken"). One can find very effective coping mechanisms and work-arounds, but by definition one does not outgrow autism or learn to not be autistic.

So, either:
1) Those children were misdiagnosed.
2) Those children have adapted to hide signs of autism well enough to fool undergrads.
3) My counselor's definition of autism is wrong.
4) The definition of autism must be completely rewritten, from the ground up.

In my opinion, 2 is most likely. So, they can fool non-experts. Isn't that why we have experts? I want to see the study done using well-trained autism experts, with the long observation times necessary for a formal diagnosis. If they say the kids aren't autistic anymore, then I'll be more impressed.

Optional reading:
As a side note, after my recent discussion with my counselor, I now feel like I've just spend my whole adult life learning to pass a Turing test. I sat in a group with 6 other men a few days ago and watched them talk, wondering what secret communications of facial expressions and emotions I was missing out on - like radio signals that I have no reception for. The revelation is new to me - I'll be done wallowing in pity in a week or so, and back to figuring out better workarounds.

 

[Ragnahawk]

It is just speculation. Aspies are keen on social camoflague which only grows in strength in harsher conditions. We should focus on a better diagnosis first. ASD diagnosis and treatment is just too unstable at the moment.

 

[Ragnahawk]

This would eliminate the need to ask whether a child could become a neurotypical later in life. Maybe start by measuring brain activity or confirming definite symptoms.

 

[Nervous Rex]

It is just speculation. Aspies are keen on social camoflague which only grows in strength in harsher conditions. We should focus on a better diagnosis first. ASD diagnosis and treatment is just too unstable at the moment.

Agreed. Right now, autism is a collection of correlated symptoms with a rough guess at an explanation. Even the clinical terms "Neuro-Typical" and "Neuro-Diverse" just break down to using big words to say, "You're like everyone else" or "There's something different about you." We need a lot more science behind the cause, and then a test that measures some unalterable traits, not one based on "how poorly do ya hide yer differences?"

In other news, there's this: Autism shares brain signature with schizophrenia, bipolar disorder. I'm glad they're researching it, but if a "brain signature" can't distinguish between three different "disorders"* each with their own distinctive behavior markers, then obviously a "brain signature" isn't enough.

*"Disorders" in quotes, because I hesitate to call autism a disorder. It's just a difference. (Or I'm being defensive.)

 

[Kathos]

I think I've mentioned on this forum that my nephew was clearly HF autism when he was born and after several years of therapy (age 2-5) the autism seemingly disappeared. He's smart, very social (always with friends), a star baseball player. But does that mean he is now NT? I personally do not think so for several reasons.
Firstly, from his outward appearance everything "looks" NT but the aspie traits are still there. He is always socializing(almost over socializing due to his parents intervention) however, I don't think he engages in the same way as an NT. His relationships do not feel that friendly, but because he has a great house kids like to hang out there, it's a convenient arrangement. His odds of making a great friend are incredibly high but I'm not sure he has one. He's athletic and a star baseball player, however, I think baseball is his "obsession" and fortunately for him there is no such thing as too much baseball. Unfortunately, he is often benched in games for throwing fits which I would attribute to his aspergers. He can also be very mean and the parents struggle with his lack of empathy and inability to put himself in another's shoes. I can see their frustration and I actually feel he could use therapy to get past that. But, he is doing so well overall that I think aspergers is off their radar.
I believe the extensive ABA, speech, physical therapy, social skills therapy, occupational therapy etc... from his early years triggered neural pathways that might otherwise have been heavily delayed or closed to him. The goal being to make his life easier by helping him function seamlessly with NTs. I think it worked, but I often wonder if anything was lost along the way. For example, when he was 3 he had memorized every Nascar racer by their first and last name along with their car color and number, it was mind blowing. He had a lot of memory tricks for all kinds of odd data, but if you ask him today, he doesn't remember the things he use to know and I think he lost his photographic memory.
I'm happy my nephew is happy, that he isn't droning on about Nascar drivers and their numbers and he has friends and is pursuing a passion that he can share and is considered admirable and acceptable in society. I think the therapy was great and certainly didn't hurt. Did it help him outgrow HF autism? Well, if "outgrow" means "working with" your autism then yes. If it means that he is no longer autistic, I would have to say no. Just like the rest of us, we can appear NT but we simply are not.

(On a second reading of the article, I think I am in agreement with the findings. The article suggests that the children "appear" to have outgrown autism based on an analysis of their behavior on video. If they were formally tested I think they'd still be on the spectrum)

 

[Progster]

This reminds me of a speech I once listened to by a psychiatrist in which he talks about a young man who was diagnosed as a child, but them claimed to have outgrown his autism and begged the psychiatrist to 'undiagnose' him, because he wanted to join the army. The psychiatrist obliged (or wrote a statement saying he was fit to join the army), and so the young man went off to the army. A year or two later, he had left - he couldn't cope with the shared accommodation and other aspects of the environment.
So in a familiar environment, we may reach a point where we have adapted, cope and appear to be 'normal', but then our underlying autism means that we find it difficult to adapt, it doesn't happen intuitively for us and we have to learn all over again, and that is when our differences become apparent.

 

[granolaturtle]

And I'd also like to see studies about what happens with the kids who "outgrow" autism as they age. Symptoms that may have not shown up for years can become very prominent as you age, I think. And also just new stressors that show up as you go from elementary school to middle to high school and sometimes college. Getting a job can really highlight differences you didn't even think you had.

 

[jacinto]

I agree I think it's far more likely the grown-up kids have channeled so much effort & energy into camouflage & mimicry that they specialize in "normality," and that's why they seemed to actually surpass the non-autistic kids in being outgoing & verbal. I'm convinced that's the case, esp. since the article doesn't mention anything about something so highly relevant to the results of the study.

A whole lot can change though over many years. The difference between my childhood self & me now could almost be compared to the difference between young Hellen Keller and her older self except of course she became a world renowned, highly successful, triumphant paragon of human achievement and I'm just...not.

One thing I noticed has changed is that unlike most of my life, I can look a person in the eyes now and also actually hear what they're saying. The two used to be mutually exclusive. I could only really listen to you if I didn't have to force myself to stare at you so you'd THINK I was. In fact this caused me a lot of pain - physically. My step-father was absolutely the epitome of NT, but also mean & a enthusiastic proponent of physical discipline on top of that. And there was no Asperger's diagnosis when I was a kid. So I got hit for "getting that glazed look" in my eyes, and I'd have to completely STARE at him when he had something to say to me. Little did he know he was actually punishing me for listening to him (not that it would've mattered).

But that's not why I started getting better at eye-contact. It was just because I wanted to be like other people. It's still to this day way easier to pay attention if I'm not forced to gaze at you like a Beholder. I just use it for certain things.

 

[sidd851]

I think I've mentioned on this forum that my nephew was clearly HF autism when he was born and after several years of therapy (age 2-5) the autism seemingly disappeared. He's smart, very social (always with friends), a star baseball player. But does that mean he is now NT? I personally do not think so for several reasons.
Firstly, from his outward appearance everything "looks" NT but the aspie traits are still there. He is always socializing(almost over socializing due to his parents intervention) however, I don't think he engages in the same way as an NT. His relationships do not feel that friendly, but because he has a great house kids like to hang out there, it's a convenient arrangement. His odds of making a great friend are incredibly high but I'm not sure he has one. He's athletic and a star baseball player, however, I think baseball is his "obsession" and fortunately for him there is no such thing as too much baseball. Unfortunately, he is often benched in games for throwing fits which I would attribute to his aspergers. He can also be very mean and the parents struggle with his lack of empathy and inability to put himself in another's shoes. I can see their frustration and I actually feel he could use therapy to get past that. But, he is doing so well overall that I think aspergers is off their radar.
I believe the extensive ABA, speech, physical therapy, social skills therapy, occupational therapy etc... from his early years triggered neural pathways that might otherwise have been heavily delayed or closed to him. The goal being to make his life easier by helping him function seamlessly with NTs. I think it worked, but I often wonder if anything was lost along the way. For example, when he was 3 he had memorized every Nascar racer by their first and last name along with their car color and number, it was mind blowing. He had a lot of memory tricks for all kinds of odd data, but if you ask him today, he doesn't remember the things he use to know and I think he lost his photographic memory.
I'm happy my nephew is happy, that he isn't droning on about Nascar drivers and their numbers and he has friends and is pursuing a passion that he can share and is considered admirable and acceptable in society. I think the therapy was great and certainly didn't hurt. Did it help him outgrow HF autism? Well, if "outgrow" means "working with" your autism then yes. If it means that he is no longer autistic, I would have to say no. Just like the rest of us, we can appear NT but we simply are not.

(On a second reading of the article, I think I am in agreement with the findings. The article suggests that the children "appear" to have outgrown autism based on an analysis of their behavior on video. If they were formally tested I think they'd still be on the spectrum)

Fascinating. This bolsters my belief that social "instinct"/emotion and intelligence are inversely proportional.

 

[GrownupGirl]

I think it's stupid and creating false hope for parents who think their autistic children will bring them nothing but pain and sorrow.

 

[pjcnet]

I think it's stupid and creating false hope for parents who think their autistic children will bring them nothing but pain and sorrow.

I partly agree with the first part because some parents might be given false hope that they can grow out of it although as I wrote in my previous reply it is also possible to at least partly improve significantly as a child develops because it happened to me and this was far more than just learning to deal with it better, but although autistic children can be more difficult to bring up in a mostly NT world, they don't all bring pain and sorrow and there's no reason why they won't be just as loved, of course there will be good and bad times, but this is the case with any child to some extent. Many parents will embrace their autistic son or daughter as their own special child, they will love them for who they are along with everything that makes them unique and they wouldn't want them any different, in fact this can even be the case with a child who is on the lower end of the autistic spectrum. If they start gaining a special interest talent they can sometimes even make their parents especially proud.

 

[Gracey]

... it is also possible to at least partly improve ...

Couldn’t agree more.
Work with what you’ve got.

There are a lot of examples on site of those on the spectrum using an interest and developing it as a means of income to support themselves.

If some parental perception could change from what the child lacks when compared with a national ‘norm’ and instead shift focus to what their child likes/has/finds easy -(where other children don’t)

Create the child’s world using what they can do.
Work with what you’ve got.

The child won’t spend its entirety in isolation so gradually some social skills will be picked up and practiced in connection with their hobby/interest/obsession.

Rather than longing for their child to be like little little Jimmy next door (who isn’t on the spectrum)
?

 

[GrownupGirl]

Autism $peaks and other so-called Autism "charities" seem to want everyone to believe that as soon as an autistic child grows up, instead of becoming an autistic adult, they just disappear from the world and are not worth bothering with anymore. And it's twice as bad if you're female. I. Hate. That.

 

[Mr Allen]

Autism $peaks and other so-called Autism "charities" seem to want everyone to believe that as soon as an autistic child grows up, instead of becoming an autistic adult, they just disappear from the world and are not worth bothering with anymore. And it's twice as bad if you're female. I. Hate. That.

Indeed, in the UK, services for autistic adults just don't exist, yet the "Powers that be" are literally falling over themselves to find and help kids.

 

[Gracey]

Indeed, in the UK, services for autistic adults just don't exist, yet the "Powers that be" are literally falling over themselves to find and help kids.

Agree there Rich,
I’ve been emailing and searching since February.

Services for children, local group set up for parents of those on the spectrum...

...I could stretch the boundary and sneak into the local group, after all I am a parent ?
Seems dishonest though.

I’ve been contacted by one helpful person and pointed in the direction of a ‘social’ kind of set up.
Just have to get myself in the correct frame of mind really.

I’m wandering off point...

Yes, there isn’t much; that I can find, set up for adults.

I was considering doing something about that but don’t quite know where to go after the ideas stage.