Self Advocacy

[Wolfiedog]

Were i still seeing my therapist, i'd discuss it with them. But since i'm not i will reach out to you good folks for information or understanding.
For the last year i now realize i have almost no self advocacy skills. i've expressed them at times during a meltdown, but other than that--zero. Nothing. Nada.
My whole life i have just taken what i've been given, often wondering why i get the ****** end of the stick all of the time, like some grand universal equalizer will step in and give me my turn doing the easy end of the job. But the grand universal equalizer never came to my rescue leaving me very frustrated my whole life.
To this day i still don't understand how to access this ability, even watching others weld it with ease.
Growing up, i never understood why i was the one who had to go without, be left out, given the hardest part of a chore or assignment, or be the one punished for what everyone else had done. As children my step-sister made good use of my lack of self advocacy skills to her own ends. At work i was always, always left doing the grunt work even though i had knowledge and abilities that surpassed others.
The few times i tried to practice self advocacy apparently i did it wrong because it always resulted in negative consequences.
i would be full of self loathing over this late in life realization had i not finally understood several years ago that i was autistic. It's not my fault my neural activity in my head can't wrap itself around how to self advocate.
Is there anyone else that struggles with this? Is next to zero self advocacy skills a shared experience among those on the spectrum?

 

[Hypnalis]

This is a learnable skill ...
... but like most social skills, there's a substrate of competitiveness.

It's not enough to learn the basics, you have to be as good as experienced NT adults. For most things, including this one, that's achievable for ASDs, but it will take time and effort.

Nothing with this "pseudo-competitive" characteristic can be learned with a short, simple, easily executed list of actions. The net is full of "self-help coaches" who claim otherwise of course, but functioning magic wands remain strangely elusive.

So a direct question for you. It will seem a bit rude, but it's not intended that way:
Are you willing to put in 20-100 hours working on the core skills, or are you looking for a "magic wand"?

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

When I decided to grow a bit as a young adult, I had to learn how to express my boundaries and advocate for myself. Before that, I would let my frustration grow until I would explode. I learned that I needed to express myself clearly and insistently but calmly and be prepared to provide alternatives. Such as: "What you are asking me to do, I completed last time. X needs experience doing it so I would rather do Y that he usually works on. Here are the resources X will need." It was scary for me to do that, but I always have been a good worker so people took my suggestions seriously.

I was not ready to date or enter into a relationship until I matured and regained my agency. It is an important thing to learn and at the same time left my parents home to live independently.

 

[AdamG]

It has taken me about 55 years to actually create boundaries that I do not want crossed. I still haven't figured out how to tell remote people that they've crossed the line, rather than ghost them. It isn't easy for me.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

There is a bit of nuance to all of this. You can be a naturally "disagreeable" person without coming off as grumpy and negative. You can be an "agreeable" personality without being "a doormat" to be walked upon. Some things in life, I don't have any strong feelings about, in which case, I will go with the flow of things. Some things in life, for me, are a "hard stop" and I definitely have feelings about. Whatever the situation, and it varies, but there is this mindset that you do have to be somewhat "selfish" in the sense that you have to be protective of yourself physically, psychologically, and spiritually. There is a time and place for "people pleasing", but don't let it become part of who you are, because, as you have already found out, people will take advantage of that. "Well, we thought you wouldn't care if we did,...." "So, we didn't ask." "Sorry." In other words, "We didn't think enough of you to bother considering your opinion on the matter. So suck it up. This is what we are doing."

If you don't have respect for yourself, people see that, and then see no need to respect you, either.

 

[Wolfiedog]

This is a learnable skill ...
... but like most social skills, there's a substrate of competitiveness.

It's not enough to learn the basics, you have to be as good as experienced NT adults. For most things, including this one, that's achievable for ASDs, but it will take time and effort.

Nothing with this "pseudo-competitive" characteristic can be learned with a short, simple, easily executed list of actions. The net is full of "self-help coaches" who claim otherwise of course, but functioning magic wands remain strangely elusive.

So a direct question for you. It will seem a bit rude, but it's not intended that way:
Are you willing to put in 20-100 hours working on the core skills, or are you looking for a "magic wand"?

No magic wand. And at my age not much can be done to change my life's course and trajectory.
Four years ago i experienced a major autistic burnout which stripped me of what people skills i had squired over the years.
i'm not really in a place to be starting over.
It' is nice to know that there is hope for others though.

 

[Wolfiedog]

When I decided to grow a bit as a young adult, I had to learn how to express my boundaries and advocate for myself. Before that, I would let my frustration grow until I would explode. I learned that I needed to express myself clearly and insistently but calmly and be prepared to provide alternatives. Such as: "What you are asking me to do, I completed last time. X needs experience doing it so I would rather do Y that he usually works on. Here are the resources X will need." It was scary for me to do that, but I always have been a good worker so people took my suggestions seriously.

I was not ready to date or enter into a relationship until I matured and regained my agency. It is an important thing to learn and at the same time left my parents home to live independently.

i had no idea as a young adult that such a skill existed. Nor as an older adult. Not until about a year ago.
i'm glad it worked out for you, though.

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

i had no idea as a young adult that such a skill existed. Nor as an older adult. Not until about a year ago.
i'm glad it worked out for you, though.

The thing I understood as a young adult was that I desired a relationship and that guys were the ones that had to approach women. So, I figured out that if I could not advocate for myself, I could not advocate for my happiness with a woman. It was not easy and mistakes were made.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

Seems like being an advocate for oneself also requires some degree of assertiveness. Assertiveness does require courage, especially, if you are a socially anxious person. However, as @Gerald Wilgus suggested, if you need something in your life, whatever it is, it requires you to reach out and get it, because rarely is anyone just going give it to you.

 

[Wolfiedog]

Seems like being an advocate for oneself also requires some degree of assertiveness. Assertiveness does require courage, especially, if you are a socially anxious person. However, as @Gerald Wilgus suggested, if you need something in your life, whatever it is, it requires you to reach out and get it, because rarely is anyone just going give it to you.

i have given your post much thought, Neonatal RRT.
i have never considered myself cowardly. And you would be hard pressed to find someone to claim that i was not assertive in most of my working career. (How i managed to become assertive is another story.) In fact, i got whisked along the fast track into management at one point in my working life in a big, big company due to my assertiveness. Now, when i say 'whisked along,' it was completely that. i did not apply for those positions but rather management did it for me. At the time i thought, 'Wow. It's finally happening for me.' LOL
i was only self-advocating by strong performance. Something i could understand. The promotions i received was done by others to meet their needs. i didn't refuse them because i thought this was how it was supposed to work.
But it seems that self-advocating is a part of the social game that i have no understanding of.
What seems so easy, comes so naturally to others like friendships, small talk, and social interactions completely eludes me. That includes self advocacy. What i have accomplished in these areas only cam with hard work and dedication. Self advocacy seems to be a blind spot for me. i just wondered if anyone else shared this issue.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

i have given your post much thought, Neonatal RRT.
i have never considered myself cowardly. And you would be hard pressed to find someone to claim that i was not assertive in most of my working career. (How i managed to become assertive is another story.) In fact, i got whisked along the fast track into management at one point in my working life in a big, big company due to my assertiveness. Now, when i say 'whisked along,' it was completely that. i did not apply for those positions but rather management did it for me. At the time i thought, 'Wow. It's finally happening for me.' LOL
i was only self-advocating by strong performance. Something i could understand. The promotions i received was done by others to meet their needs. i didn't refuse them because i thought this was how it was supposed to work.
But it seems that self-advocating is a part of the social game that i have no understanding of.
What seems so easy, comes so naturally to others like friendships, small talk, and social interactions completely eludes me. That includes self advocacy. What i have accomplished in these areas only cam with hard work and dedication. Self advocacy seems to be a blind spot for me. i just wondered if anyone else shared this issue.

I would say we have some similarities from a professional standpoint, where our drive to be a "high-performer" is also entangled in our attention to the little details, techniques, precision, etc. People recognize that. Stereotypically, it's why some "in-the-know" employers will specifically seek out candidates with these traits, who are often on the autism spectrum. However, these are also hallmarks of an individual with "high-functioning" anxiety. Anxiety is a form of fear. Doing things despite that fear is, by definition, courage. Signs You Have High-Functioning Anxiety

Like you, in some aspects of my life, I would never consider myself a coward, in fact, quite the opposite. There are certain situations where I just put my foot down, dig in, and stand my ground no matter what's in front of me.

However, from a social perspective, this is where you and I seem to have this lack of self-advocacy issue. Some might recognize it as some form of "anti-social" behavior, but as you noted, there's a lot more to it. I know that sitting in a meeting at work can be "painful", but even more so, in different ways, with social gatherings. It is the "autism experience", if you will, to be "there, but not", often relegated to the periphery, not knowing the precise moment to jump in and out of the conversation without sensing that you are interrupting the flow, or by the time there is a "window" of opportunity to jump in and say what was on your mind, the conversation moved on to another topic and you're left there hanging. The other thing is, almost daily, I will be just getting into a topic of discussion with someone and then someone else butts in, interrupting my train of thought, pulling the other person away from me, and I am left there hanging, as well. I tend not to bond with people, relegating them to acquaintances, never actual friends. So, in the end, if you are not able to or are willing to put in the work to become a true friend, and you are not able to hold a meaningful conversation with someone because you lack the timing and skills, that combination will put you out on the periphery of all the social interactions and gatherings both in your personal and professional life. This makes it incredibly difficult to advocate for yourself if you are a "polite" person. You could be a "bully" and demand things, but that can backfire, as well.

So, my typical coping mechanism is to deal with people when I have to, otherwise, keep it to a minimum, and just do my own thing. If I sense there might be some resistance or obstacle from a person, I will do my best not to interact with them, and try to side step or go around them. I often do best accomplishing things if I don't have to interact with others, but sometimes I am forced to, which I don't like.

 

[FayetheADHDsquirrel]

How do you know how and when to speak up for yourself vs when you need to just tolerate a situation and keep your mouth shut? For example, should you say anything when people baby talk you or would it be rebellious and rude to request that they speak to you like your actual age?

 

[RemyZee]

How do you know how and when to speak up for yourself vs when you need to just tolerate a situation and keep your mouth shut? For example, should you say anything when people baby talk you or would it be rebellious and rude to request that they speak to you like your actual age?

It might be rebellious and rude to confront people about things like talking down to you; and you might be experienced as rude for being upfront about those kinds of things....I would say who cares. If they are such small people as to talk down to you to feel better about themselves, they need to hear from people that they aren't as great as they think they are, that's just their own little world that affirms their status. For the rest of the world, they are just seen as jerks.

 

[Rodafina]

How do you know how and when to speak up...

When?
When you want it to stop.

How?
I would try to be simple, direct, and clear. Not very emotional. For example, "Please don't speak to me like I'm a baby. I don't feel good when you do that." Repeated every time they do it.

That's only if it's relatively safe to speak up and the risk is hurt feelings or seeming rude/rebellious.

 

[Hypnalis]

How do you know how and when to speak up for yourself vs when you need to just tolerate a situation and keep your mouth shut? For example, should you say anything when people baby talk you or would it be rebellious and rude to request that they speak to you like your actual age?

Just adding some details to what Rodafina said above:

You should always consider "speaking up" - it's the default action. But ....

.... judging by your OP, you're asking about interacting with people you've just met.
In those case you need to be a bit careful how you "check" the other person.

Some principles:
1. Your goal is to reset their expectations and change their behavior. You don't need them to apologize (though it's ok if they choose to). It's not a status or dominance game, so you don't need them to "formally" indicate the change in expectations. If they start acting correctly, the protocol is to pretend their error never happened.
2. Don't get angry, or react as though you've been deliberately slighted. This is true even if they're actually trying to be annoying.
3. Start with something that implicitly assumes they're making an honest mistake. The tone is "politely and calmly correcting an honest mistake". It's best to have some words ready for this.
4. The usual protocol for this is to open with a statement that allows for you to be mistaken, even if you're sure that's not the case. See below for a bit more information.
This is very important - the chance you're mistaken isn't high, but it's easy to allow for it, and there's a "price" if you get this wrong.
5. Fewer words and less information is better than a full explanation.
6. People who do this without a few "control questions" to verify their initial impression aren't particularly smart. Don't assume anything about them, particularly about what they can understand.
This is unfair of course, because they're assuming something about you, but that's how it goes sometimes

I won't give you a script (yet), but here's an example of the "lead with the possibility you're wrong" approach:

A few months ago I was in a different country, and needed a local SIM and a call/text & data plan.
So we fixed that, then the guy wanted to upsell me to a subscription for some phone security software. I wasn't going to buy it, but it's was clearly in his job description, so I let him go through the process.

The last bit was for him to tell me that if I'm a pensioner I get 20% off. Which would have been fine, because I'm well over the age limit for that. But some people who are under that limit get really offended if anyone suggests they're above it, so he spent maybe 20 seconds setting up before he offered the discount.

it's was something like "I'm not trying to imply your over the qualification age, but just in case, there's a potential discount that I don't want you to miss out on" (only with a lot more words /lol).

I wouldn't care either way OFC, but I'm an Aspie, and I like both facts and discounts - I'd never find fault with someone offering me a discount. But many NT's become genuinely offended over trivia like that, and no salesperson wants to trigger a 'Karen/Ken" episode over nothing, so they always go in softly

You'll need something like this early in your "script" for correcting people. Something functionally equivalent to "I'm sorry if I'm misjudging the situation", but consistent for your personal style.
(OFC that's probably what they should have done with you, so it's unfair you have to be more considerate towards them than they were to you. But remember point (1) above

 

[FayetheADHDsquirrel]

Just adding some details to what Rodafina said above:

You should always consider "speaking up" - it's the default action. But ....

.... judging by your OP, you're asking about interacting with people you've just met.
In those case you need to be a bit careful how you "check" the other person.

Some principles:
1. Your goal is to reset their expectations and change their behavior. You don't need them to apologize (though it's ok if they choose to). It's not a status or dominance game, so you don't need them to "formally" indicate the change in expectations. If they start acting correctly, the protocol is to pretend their error never happened.
2. Don't get angry, or react as though you've been deliberately slighted. This is true even if they're actually trying to be annoying.
3. Start with something that implicitly assumes they're making an honest mistake. The tone is "politely and calmly correcting an honest mistake". It's best to have some words ready for this.
4. The usual protocol for this is to open with a statement that allows for you to be mistaken, even if you're sure that's not the case. See below for a bit more information.
This is very important - the chance you're mistaken isn't high, but it's easy to allow for it, and there's a "price" if you get this wrong.
5. Fewer words and less information is better than a full explanation.
6. People who do this without a few "control questions" to verify their initial impression aren't particularly smart. Don't assume anything about them, particularly about what they can understand.
This is unfair of course, because they're assuming something about you, but that's how it goes sometimes

I won't give you a script (yet), but here's an example of the "lead with the possibility you're wrong" approach:

A few months ago I was in a different country, and needed a local SIM and a call/text & data plan.
So we fixed that, then the guy wanted to upsell me to a subscription for some phone security software. I wasn't going to buy it, but it's was clearly in his job description, so I let him go through the process.

The last bit was for him to tell me that if I'm a pensioner I get 20% off. Which would have been fine, because I'm well over the age limit for that. But some people who are under that limit get really offended if anyone suggests they're above it, so he spent maybe 20 seconds setting up before he offered the discount.

it's was something like "I'm not trying to imply your over the qualification age, but just in case, there's a potential discount that I don't want you to miss out on" (only with a lot more words /lol).

I wouldn't care either way OFC, but I'm an Aspie, and I like both facts and discounts - I'd never find fault with someone offering me a discount. But many NT's become genuinely offended over trivia like that, and no salesperson wants to trigger a 'Karen/Ken" episode over nothing, so they always go in softly

You'll need something like this early in your "script" for correcting people. Something functionally equivalent to "I'm sorry if I'm misjudging the situation", but consistent for your personal style.
(OFC that's probably what they should have done with you, so it's unfair you have to be more considerate towards them than they were to you. But remember point (1) above

I am mainly concerned about interacting with people that I interact with regularly. Strangers can think or say about whatever they want as long as they aren't being physically aggressive or trying to get me in trouble for something I didn't do.
I don't think I am capable of doing all that in your list; not in a way that would be taken seriously anyway. I would either be dropping my gaze submissively or if I made myself look them in the eye while explaining things, I would automatically get this sheepish/Cheshire grin.

 

[Hypnalis]

I don't think I am capable of doing all that in your list; not in a way that would be taken seriously anyway. I would either be dropping my gaze submissively or if I made myself look them in the eye while explaining things, I would automatically get this sheepish/Cheshire grin.

Its possible to learn how to be more assertive, but it's a completely different question.
And it's a bit more difficult for an Aspie than an NT, because it means adjusting your masking techniques.

So on the negative side, it's quite a lot of time and effort. But on plus side, it would change your life for the better.

 

[FayetheADHDsquirrel]

I'm not sure how it's a completely different question, because it is hard to know when and with who it is permissible to be assertive. I didn't have any problem speaking to people when I was a small child. Maybe it wouldn't be quite so awkward to speak up if a person actually knew for sure that they had a right to speak up. I remember another child attacking me with a stick (completely unprovoked) they just walked up and walloped my hand with it so hard it swelled up. That child's family was mad at me because they started crying and saying that they were afraid I was mad. I had to reassure the person that had just hurt me that I was not upset and try to make her feel better while trying to simultaneously deal with the pain as my hand swelled up. If I had refused to assure her, I would have been horrible yet other people are respected for standing up for themselves over petty things like their place in line at a cash register or something. It is hard to understand the differences sometimes. I will stand up and say "no" if someone wants me to do something that I believe is wrong or something that I definitely don't want to do, but I just try to ignore people when they insult, mock, or even physically bully me and if I go to someone in charge it seems to be me that was bad for complaining. For example, when some kids tried to strangle me when I was a kid and I got away and ran to the authority figure in charge the authority figure was mad at me for being a tattle tale. Everyone seems to say that I need to learn to stand up for myself more, but if I say anything I'm bad. It is so confusing.

 

[Hypnalis]

I'm not sure how it's a completely different question

I could quantify this but it takes us way off topic, and for me, possibly out of scope for what brings me to AF.

Very briefly:
Using even simple techniques to influence the behavior of others requires a degree of assertiveness.
If you don't have "enough" assertiveness, you need to work on that first.

BTW I do understand and sympathize with the main part of your post above. But there's way too much to unwrap in a brief post, and I'm probably not the right person to engage with it anyway.

 

[Shevek]

I just had a long negotiation to try to get some special handling instructions put into my medical file. I lost, partly because NTs can't imagine being me, and don't want to get stuck giving people special treatment just because they ask for it, and also because they are not really there to cure anybody, but rather to have pleasant days keeping the friendly patients coming back.