Rule following, clarification, please.

[DesertRose]

I'm still researching. My question is about rule following. I'm a very old fashioned, traditional type woman. My question, of sorts, is this, (bear with me), would it be "rule following", where you do what is expected of you to do, even if there are no "rules" so to speak, simply bease thst is what is sup posed to be done.
For instance, a woman marries. She waits on her husband, bringing him coffee, breakfast, etc., a cold drink, when he comes home from work, because that is just how it is supposed to be.
He works, she stays home with the children. She keeps house, waits on her husband, trains the children, etc. Just because, that is what she is SUPPOSED to do.
In this day and time, I understand, it's not the norm. This is the best thing I can come up with as an example, at the moment.

Like general manners, saying thank you, you're welcome (which seems to be replaced with, "it's no problem", - I hate that!) Excuse me, smiling when someone looks at you, etc. It's just what you're supposed to do. I get somewhat annoyed when people don't use the common niceties, it's just what you're supposed to do, and that's the way it's supposed to be. Is that an example of Aspie rule following?

I'm one that needs to follow the rules, thats just the right thing to do, going against them is very upsetting. I'm terrible at analogies, or examples.

 

[Judge]

I want to say, "I know exactly what you are saying" and can relate to it very much. Though I have a different "spin" on what I believe this is all about. Given your age and locality I'm guessing that like myself, you were raised with a fundamental sense of common courtesy. Perhaps more than anything, reflecting both a point in time and regional culture.

However personally I believe such values have severely eroded with time, migration and cultural integration of other regions of the country which don't necessarily share an emphasis on common courtesy and how we may express it. And technology is exposing us to the somewhat different values of others in real time.

I just don't see such a dynamic as being clearly indicative of Aspie rigid or black and white thought processes. That if anything it's far more indicative of the environment you grew up in. Something that could easily be shared by any number of Neurotypicals who were raised in such a manner.

 

[Progster]

Here I can only speak for myself, but rules that exist, that people follow just because it is what one is 'supposed to do' drive me mad. I'll very happily follow a rule if there is a good reason for it and I see the reason, but for me, 'supposed to do' on its own is not reason enough to follow the rule. If I can't see the reason for a rule, then I don't see why I should do it, and don't. Many rules exist for safety reasons - that's fine, as long as the rule is reasonable; they are there for a purpose which I can understand. But other rules not so. Here, there's an unspoken rules for women that when someone dies and they are mourning, they should wear black. People obey this rule because it what they are supposed to do, but I would never do this. Why should I? My grief and how I feel about losing the person has nothing to do with colour. Also, why should this rule only exist for women and not for men??? No way. I see no reason to wear black just because someone died, it's nonsense!

I don't generally get upset at all by people not following social scripts and protocol - I don't really care too much whether they smile or not or whether they make eye contact or say "excuse me" when they cough, I don't require this of people and it doesn't bother me if they don't. However, if I help someone and they don't thank me, it can make me feel that I'm not appreciated and that they are taking me for granted. Also, small kids who demand "juice!" or "water!" from their parents without saying "please" annoy me, this is rude.

One area where I rigidly stick to rule following is when playing board games such as Scrabble - it can cause misunderstandings when I want to follow the rules strictly, but other family members want to be flexible with them. Also, traffic rules: I can't stand it when other drivers don't respect the rules and then expect me to accommodate them at my inconvenience, for example, scooter riders coming the wrong way down a one way street, so I have to pull over and let them pass, when they shouldn't even be there. Or when cars don't give priority to pedestrians on an orange flashing traffic light. Or queues - people think that they have an automatic right to push in and take another person's place in the queue because they have just one or two items, when the rule is that everyone waits their turn.

I think that there is no one size fits all as far as people on the spectrum and rules are concerned - some adhere strictly to rules, others not at all, others are mixed - it depends on the person.

For instance, a woman marries. She waits on her husband, bringing him coffee, breakfast, etc., a cold drink, when he comes home from work, because that is just how it is supposed to be.
He works, she stays home with the children. She keeps house, waits on her husband, trains the children, etc. Just because, that is what she is SUPPOSED to do.
In this day and time, I understand, it's not the norm. This is the best thing I can come up with as an example, at the moment.

Yeah, this is the 21st century, not the 18th century - I'm not my husband's servant!

 

[Nervous Rex]

For me, my rule-following is part of the black-and-white mentality that seems typical of autistics. The rules may be societal norms, like your example, or they may be rules I've developed or perceived on my own. I also think that, because we aspies lack some of the innate social skills that NTs have, we develop rules to negotiate social interactions.

At the time I'm following a particular rule, it feels like a source of security - that is, I feel like the rules prevent me from being exposed to hurt. However, there have been times when rule-following has caused me a great deal of grief.

Here are a few of my rules:

• Never say no to an assignment at work.
• Don't bring up a problem unless you have a solution to propose.
• Always make sure you know how to properly spell and pronounce someone's name.
• Reread an every email at least three times before sending it, to make sure it can't be misinterpreted as conveying the wrong tone of voice.
• Always put the "executive summary" or conclusion of an issue at the top of the email. After that, put all the technical details that people may or may not want to read.
• Always support your spouse in front of your children or anyone else. If there's a disagreement, resolve it privately.
• Never let your children back-talk your spouse. My wife asking our children to respect her is not as strong as me telling them to respect her. Same with my spouse telling them to respect me.
• Never tell people what to do to fix their life. Either gently ask if a certain course of action would be better or tell them "here's what worked for me."

I think the best thing I can do is become aware of when I am following a rule for the sake of rule-following, and periodically review the rule to see if it is still a good rule to follow.

 

[Gritches]

I live in a place where it's practically sacrilege to not follow such rules of common courtesy. And yes, even young people follow them. Thing is, most of the people I'm talking about are NT. So I would say it's definitely a type of rule-following, but not AS-specific.

 

[Katherine Rawstron]

I generally stick to the rules; social rules can be a minefield sometimes for people with our condition, as we have to consciously learn things that NT people just pick up naturally, and even then, there's no guarantee that we'll get it right!

As for rules specific to a place of work, say, I stick to them without question if I can see the reason for them. But if they seem to be there just for the sake of it, I have a problem, and I will rebel and argue if I believe a rule to be plain wrong, unfair or unethical.

 

[OlLiE]

i think you need to make a difference between stereotypes (male / female roles that once may have been relevant but are no longer so) and rules and laws

rules and laws were made to make civilised society possible:
- being polite makes it easier to avid arguments and violence
- laws make the world a safer place

laws especially are applicable to everyone, they have to draw a line of what is and is not acceptable behaviour and cannot take into account everyone's own particular situation, the benefit of the general rule outweighs the few's experienced inconvenience

in the past people 'trusted' lawmakers to make 'decent' laws for the common benefit: for example: when you get in a plane, you sit down on your assigned seat, and remain seated until the cruising altitude has been achieved whether you need to pee or not, you just should have arrived on time, emptied your bladder before getting on and not drunken litres of liquid before getting on the plane, there was a certain degree of expected common sense, a sense of responsibility, and self discipline, concepts that hardly survive these days

today, people are taught that they are the centre of the world, that all that counts is their own convenience, if an individual perceives a rule as being inconvenient to him/herself, then it must be a stupid rule and they are entire within their rights to ignore it, they post their stupidity on social media (aka moron's anonymous) and every self centred moron on moron's anonymous chimes in

example: you arrive late at the airport, but you want to go to tax free, you want to have an enormous coffee, call your friends and post a selfie on moron's anonymous, barely arrive on time at the gate, and then get annoyed because you can't go to the toilet while the plane is preparing for take off - your discomfort is not a consequence is of selfishness and stupidity, its the airline's fault

example: you and your partner have decided to have a child, the child is still very young and its screaming and crying are not under control, you still want to go to a restaurant but don't want to pay for a baby sitter or drive to your parent's for them to baby sit, so you take the child to a nice restaurant where everyone else is spending money for a quite civilised meal, your child starts to scream ad won't stop, again it's not your own fault that people look at you angrily, it's their fault for being 'intolerant'

 

[SusanLR]

Here I can only speak for myself, but rules that exist, that people follow just because it is what one is 'supposed to do' drive me mad. I'll very happily follow a rule if there is a good reason for it and I see the reason, but for me, 'supposed to do' on its own is not reason enough to follow the rule. If I can't see the reason for a rule, then I don't see why I should do it, and don't. Many rules exist for safety reasons - that's fine, as long as the rule is reasonable; they are there for a purpose which I can understand. But other rules not so. Here, there's an unspoken rules for women that when someone dies and they are mourning, they should wear black. People obey this rule because it what they are supposed to do, but I would never do this. Why should I? My grief and how I feel about losing the person has nothing to do with colour. Also, why should this rule only exist for women and not for men??? No way. I see no reason to wear black just because someone died, it's nonsense!

I don't generally get upset at all by people not following social scripts and protocol - I don't really care too much whether they smile or not or whether they make eye contact or say "excuse me" when they cough, I don't require this of people and it doesn't bother me if they don't. However, if I help someone and they don't thank me, it can make me feel that I'm not appreciated and that they are taking me for granted. Also, small kids who demand "juice!" or "water!" from their parents without saying "please" annoy me, this is rude.

One area where I rigidly stick to rule following is when playing board games such as Scrabble - it can cause misunderstandings when I want to follow the rules strictly, but other family members want to be flexible with them. Also, traffic rules: I can't stand it when other drivers don't respect the rules and then expect me to accommodate them at my inconvenience, for example, scooter riders coming the wrong way down a one way street, so I have to pull over and let them pass, when they shouldn't even be there. Or when cars don't give priority to pedestrians on an orange flashing traffic light. Or queues - people think that they have an automatic right to push in and take another person's place in the queue because they have just one or two items, when the rule is that everyone waits their turn.

I think that there is no one size fits all as far as people on the spectrum and rules are concerned - some adhere strictly to rules, others not at all, others are mixed - it depends on the person.

Yeah, this is the 21st century, not the 18th century - I'm not my husband's servant!

You've said it right and I so agree with all the things you wrote.

And @DesertRose I don't think your rules questions are ASD related.
They seem to be cultural and time related engrained.
Even today the world is a very culturally diverse place.

 

[Progster]

Don't bring up a problem unless you have a solution to propose.

This is an excellent rule, I just wish more people would abide by it.

The rules that the OP talks about are mainly cultural rules of courtesey. They are also generational. I remember when I was growing up, my parents had all sorts of rules around meals, which were more formal, ritualised events. Such as, always put the milk in a jug and the butter in a dish. Marmalade in a dish. I never got why one has to put the milk in a jug or the butter in a dish and why one can't just put the milk bottle or the butter packet or jam jar directly onto the table, it made no sense to me whatsoever and still doesn't - so I don't follow it: I never put milk into a jug or marmalade or butter into a special container, I just don't see the reason why I should. I have noticed that recently, in the generations of today, that these rules are considered 'old-fashioned' and are being phased out. I assume that my parents were just trying to pass on to me what they had been brought up to do by their parents, but I don't blindly follow rules, I only obey rules I see a reason for or which I'm forced to follow, and now, as an adult, nobody is forcing me to follow the rules so the chain is broken.

 

[Snotcat]

I learned to say please and thank you only like five years ago. Before that it was really uncomfortable and i couldn't say thank you even when i knew i was supposed to. Now I'm trying to learn what to say in different situations and i mostly get it right, sometimes i still ask my friend what to say and she's been really helpful she also has explained to me why you should say something. But i still don't understand why people shake hands

 

[Judge]

But i still don't understand why people shake hands

A very old custom. Used to be a way of striking a deal and showing that you weren't armed and ready to kill the person you're negotiating with.

 

[Tom]

But i still don't understand why people shake hands

The original purpose is still debated. It is known from Greek sculptures as early as 5th Century BC. A recent study established that participants often smell the hand afterwards, which suggests something clearly seen in some animal behaviors (ie. dogs). It would be then more senses used in the assessment of the other. Sight, sound, touch, smell,etc.

 

[MrSpock]

I'm not sure, but I suspect that 'aspie rule following' is something made up by NTs with a poor understanding of what's going on.

Replies to this thread seem to be citing different sets of 'rules', and I'm not convinced that arguments which apply to some can be reasonably applied to all of these rule sets. Consider that aspies are also typically thought to be more likely than others to create our own sets of rules to replace those we find problematic.

We seem better able to adhere to rule sets when they do not contain contradictory 'rules', and better able to detect such contradictions - we're more comfortable than NTs with relating rules to each other and establishing systems. If a set of rules contains contradictions we're unusually confident that it is indeed a contradiction and not merely confusion on our part due to a lack of understanding how the rules interact, we therefore have a problem with the rule set which NTs are unlikely to detect. Where they will simply try to muddle through it we want to correct it if possible (because we can, and see the benefit), and we are confident to ignore 'rule sets' that are beyond repair, that cannot legitimately be considered a functioning mechanism or a 'rule set' the way that such a thing must be to truly have value.

If the rules of a game are not clearly established and adhered to the participants can hardly even be said to be playing the same game, they're playing two (or more) games while they happen to be in the same room.

Playing pool is one of my special interests. Serious pool players will always want to establish rules and keep to proper etiquette, I get the impression that many who play are there for the social interaction and the game is nearly irrelevant to what they're doing. I think that wanting to participate in a perceived potential social situation at the expense of interfering with people who are trying to accomplish something is an NT thing. If a person is 'only' trying to get better at something or compete on a level playing field they would 'obviously' welcome an interruption which provides social interaction.