Ready to broach the issue with spouse

[Rodafina]

Find something she loves and take it away from her.

This is pure manipulation which is not advisable in trying to maintain some semblance of a healthy relationship.

If someone did this to me, I'd be so gone so quickly and I would never look back.

 

[Tom]

For sure I am tired, frustrated, a deeply lonesome, and did I say tired?

I am venting for sure. Better here than at home. But I am still just trying to keep moving forward, and find a way to help my kids open up to get to know themselves better, despite my being unable to do it with my spouse. I failed at this, I was never able to get past the first step in my marriage. It's scary to watch my kids follow that path.

The idea of cognitive challenges is taboo in our house, as is the concept of getting professional help. I have realized I need to do this alone. What worries is me is I suspect she will undermine this (unconsciously at least). That has been the pattern so far, divert efforts at even talking about it. She has been highly effective so far.

I have a teenage child who did poorly on a test. As soon as I mentioned a tutor, he began shouting, crying, screaming, swearing, rocking in his seat and hitting himself in the head. I said to my wife later perhaps we should get some help here. She said it's not that bad, he just has a little math skills gap, then she changed the subject, then she looked at her phone and ignored me, then she said I worry too much.

Yikes, that is hard. I think I am getting a clearer picture. But not uncommon I think. With kids you do often see one parent open to ideas and wiling to try things and another very rigid and in denial or not able to face it for some reason. It's a bit over my head at this point. I can't think of any useful suggestions. But whatever happens I do think you are on the right track investigating the neurodivergent possibilities. For most of us there is that point in time, a phase really where we come to terms with what it is and figuring out if that is us. It doesn't fix anything really, but does give you a lot more information to work with and a firmer platform to base things on. That said, the future is not automatically bleak. Those same kids can grow up to be very engaged and quite good, even excell at what to chose to do.

 

[AspieChris]

This is pure manipulation which is not advisable in trying to maintain some semblance of a healthy relationship.

If someone did this to me, I'd be so gone so quickly and I would never look back.

I agree. It’s harsh. Downright cruel, and definitely not advisable under normal circumstances. But he’s already said that she is gone. She just hasn’t left yet.

I only suggested it because he’s asking for suggestions and nobody else was offering up any ideas on how to blast her into reality. Based on the OP’s description of the situation, divorce may be inevitable unless something changes very soon.

 

[TBRS1]

Thank you.

I am afraid this isn't a phase. But she managed to fake it long enough that it was too late when I figured it out. There was a period when our relationship was the item she devoted her energy too, and so it went well enough, but that period passed, and she found a different priority distraction to pour her energy into (work). Obviously, I have my own issues with self-esteem, because in hindsight I ignored a lot of warning signs, and told myself she would evolve out of certain behaviors. She was young, her parents weren't great role models etc etc, I told myself a lot of rationalizations to ignore my instincts.

She is not the primary manager nor caregiver in this house. That's me. At most times she is a third child I have to raise, that's the bottom line. I read somewhere this role is not uncommon in homes with HFA. Although the stereotype is of the typical gender roles. In this house, it's me doing the majority of parenting and managing.

There was a notable shift when we had our first (not second child). She pretty much "locked herself in a room" emotionally and metaphorically and that was the beginning of the end. And yeah, as we've gotten older, and the demands higher, it's gotten worse. So yeah, there was no emotional capacity left for her to maintain a relationship of grow and develop. As I said above, her camouflage strategy has limits, and she can't keep up the act at home. But the practical effect of that is the issue that needs to be dealt with.

So, I will circle back to the issue: it is invisible to her. I can no longer work with someone who cannot see herself, nor take ownership of her challenges. Every day is groundhog day. Every discovery and progress is lost and negated the next day. Again and again. The conduct returns, and we start with square one every time. The same conversation over and over: starting with expending tremendous energy establishing that she is a human entity with agency, not a bystander.

I would love for her to do her own diagnosing, but she refuses to acknowledge she is anything outside "normal." That's her mantra: I'm normal. She held that line and didn’t budge as our marriage died and I begged her to open up to the idea of working on ourselves and on our marriage, and join me and get help. And now as our kids obviously struggle in ways well off the "normal" curve, and yet she continues to refuse to talk about anything meta like cognitive challenges or getting professional help. I suspect this is because the areas our kids struggle are the same general areas that she struggles. So, I had to develop my own model of understanding to at least have a framework to work with. And HFA fits it better than anything else I’ve found. (Note, there are now two HFA diagnoses in her family and two anything-but-autism diagnosis’s, because her siblings have been more open to this with their own selves and kids).

Yes, professional help is important. The answer to how that as happened is even longer than all these words I’m dumping here so far.

There was a 10 year stretch of time I would have described problems with my wife exactly like this.

I thought she hated me.

She was suffering a long, horrendous stretch of major depression.

If there isn't an actual professional diagnosis, be careful thinking you know what is going on.

It took me years to get her to see a professional, and a lot of damage was done between us before that happened.

It could easily be argued that it wasn't worth it. To me, though, and now us, it was worth it.

Only the two of you can decide what is best for you.

 

[Mr. Stevens]

I agree. It’s harsh. Downright cruel, and definitely not advisable under normal circumstances. But he’s already said that she is gone. She just hasn’t left yet.

I only suggested it because he’s asking for suggestions and nobody else was offering up any ideas on how to blast her into reality. Based on the OP’s description of the situation, divorce may be inevitable unless something changes very soon.

She sounds overwhelmed by reality.

 

[AspieChris]

I’m destroying my life trying to make everyone else’s life better. She’s not. None of us are inside that house but unless the OP has completely lied about the specific events in his posts, she’s not thinking about anyone but herself most of the time now. It’s of course possible that it has become a response to stress, so I’m definitely not painting her as a bad person. Maybe she’s just desperately trying to survive. But when a family separates, it’s the children who suffer most.

He’s asking for ideas to help her, and he has clearly stated that it’s because divorce would ruin the lives of himself, her, and the children.

(We/I may have already scared him away)

 

[Mr. Stevens]

I’m destroying my life trying to make everyone else’s life better. She’s not.

Maybe, but that's not her fault. Your ability to do something is not her ability to do something. She might be destroying her life doing what little she can.

None of us are inside that house but unless the OP has completely lied about the specific events in his posts, she’s not thinking about anyone but herself most of the time now.

We don't know that. The OP indicated that she could handle work, but not much else. That doesn't mean she isn't thinking about her family or doesn't feel guilt/shame/etc. over not being more involved with the family. My dad basically lived in his own world, handled work (though not always well), and didn't have much to do with the family. I hated him at the time, but I don't think he could do much more. He probably realized, himself, that a family was more than he could handle, as much as he may have wanted one. I can sympathize now, as an adult.

But when a family separates, it’s the children who suffer most.

Yes, but staying together isn't necessarily the answer. Kids don't want to live with parents who hate and resent each other. I don't think divorce would ruin anyone's lives, if it comes to that. No one can make this woman be somebody she's not. The original complaint is she's trying to be someone she's not.

 

[Rodafina]

None of us are inside that house but unless the OP has completely lied about the specific events in his posts, she’s not thinking about anyone but herself most of the time now.

It’s not that OP seems like he is lying. He is just describing how HE experiences the situation, which is relevant, important and valid. But, the problem is that this is a partnership and we are not hearing 50% of the story. One thing that a forum full of autistic people can provide is the perspective that another autistic person may be experiencing things differently than the observer is.

I agree that considering divorce would be a very difficult thing for someone, but staying together in an unhealthy match is not a good answer. The way OP describes the current dynamic, the children’s lives are already being negatively impacted. Divorce is something that is full of imagined things and it may not be as bad as OP is expecting. The current situation is full of very real things that are negatively impacting OP and the entire family.

AspieChris, despite the pushback that I am doing, I definitely see you are trying to help and value your ideas too. It’s just that mine are very different than yours in this situation.

 

[ra49]

MartinM, my primary concern at this point for your family is the children.

Please do not take what I am saying next as harsh - i am blunt by nature and not good at tender fluffy delicate.

You and your wife are adults and separately processing a messy relationship unsuccessfully. Your wife seems to me overwhelmed almost to shutdown, and you are at your wit's end trying to keep your household together. Whatever is next, you are grownups and have created the mess.

The children meanwhile are watching the Titanic that is their family sink slowly and painfully. They do not understand what the heck you two people who are supposed to love and protect and provide are doing, paddling off in separate lifeboats, leaving the kids behind.

You did not say the number or ages of your children, altho one son you said is a teenager.

Uproar at home will have been noticed at school. Are you able to (unilaterally) talk with each child's teacher or guidance counselor about what has been noticed at school? A note from teacher or principal with an attachment of counselors recommended by the school for evaluation of the children, as third party witnesses, may help your wife to understand the seriousness of the situation.

Even if it does not, you have to take action to help and protect your children. If she doesn't want to participate, too bad for her. But those children deserve all of your heart and effort. They did not ask to come, you and she brought them into this.

Get off your fanny and take care of the kids. Find good counselors, have the evaluations made, and act on the results.

I know you are already tired and very frustrated, but this is the biggest job of your life.

(And no, I haven't any of my own, because I knew I did not want to perpetuate the disaster that was my own upbringing, and I don't know any other way to be - but i do know what not to do)

I'm sorry if that is too blunt but they are just kids and none of the mess is their fault or their responsibility to fix

 

[Ken]

For most of us finding an explanation for why we have found so many things in life difficult is a great relief. Some see a stigma around mental illness but most don't understand that autism is not an illness. It is a different physical neural structure that affects our senses and affects the way we think and the way in which we communicate.

If the idea of your wife "doing something about it" means trying to be more normal then many of your expectations will be unrealistic and unobtainable. Many of her differences are hardwired and can't be "treated". Much of the trauma she has suffered in life will be specifically because her differences are hardwired and she can't change them no matter how hard she tries.

What most of us do here is learn about how and why we behave the way we do and how to work with that in order to better make use of our gifts. Trying to lead your wife on a path of wonderful discovery might be more encouraging to her than telling her she needs to fix herself.

Many of us find the idea that we are somehow broken or that there is something wrong with us to be extremely offensive. If there was a cure for autism I would refuse it, I like who I am and how I am. I find that jigsaw puzzle piece logo to be offensive for the same reason, I don't have any pieces missing.

Thanks for that. That's me exactly. Very well put. There has been so many attempts to fix me, but none have ever worked. I have never been fixed, it has only broken me further. I have a lot of permanent scars as a result of fix attempts.

And indeed, the suggestion that I need therapy is not only extremely offensive and humiliating, I know it will result in more damage.

Yea, I am not a good fit in most of society, but that doesn't mean I'm broken. A fish can't ride a bicycle, but that doesn't mean anything is wrong with the fish.

 

[AspieChris]

MartinM, my primary concern at this point for your family is the children.

Please do not take what I am saying next as harsh - i am blunt by nature and not good at tender fluffy delicate.

You and your wife are adults and separately processing a messy relationship unsuccessfully. Your wife seems to me overwhelmed almost to shutdown, and you are at your wit's end trying to keep your household together. Whatever is next, you are grownups and have created the mess.

The children meanwhile are watching the Titanic that is their family sink slowly and painfully. They do not understand what the heck you two people who are supposed to love and protect and provide are doing, paddling off in separate lifeboats, leaving the kids behind.

You did not say the number or ages of your children, altho one son you said is a teenager.

Uproar at home will have been noticed at school. Are you able to (unilaterally) talk with each child's teacher or guidance counselor about what has been noticed at school? A note from teacher or principal with an attachment of counselors recommended by the school for evaluation of the children, as third party witnesses, may help your wife to understand the seriousness of the situation.

Even if it does not, you have to take action to help and protect your children. If she doesn't want to participate, too bad for her. But those children deserve all of your heart and effort. They did not ask to come, you and she brought them into this.

Get off your fanny and take care of the kids. Find good counselors, have the evaluations made, and act on the results.

I know you are already tired and very frustrated, but this is the biggest job of your life.

(And no, I haven't any of my own, because I knew I did not want to perpetuate the disaster that was my own upbringing, and I don't know any other way to be - but i do know what not to do)

I'm sorry if that is too blunt but they are just kids and none of the mess is their fault or their responsibility to fix

You said everything that I wanted to put into words but couldn’t. Spot on regarding the kids.

My parents divorced when I was 6. I have known plenty of people who were raised in homes where really bad things were going on. Every situation is different of course. And I’m always going to think that my childhood would have been better if they fought constantly but stayed together. But I have a few thoughts:

Divorce inevitably equals moving to another residence. New neighbors. New schools. Commuting back and forth between mom and dad’s homes. Poorer neighborhoods because the parents are supporting two residences on the same budget. Constantly thinking about what to bring when going back to mom’s/dad’s house (like schoolbooks or an iPad).Missing out on special events because mom has you that weekend. And that’s when it goes really well. If it’s a nasty divorce, it always hits the children first and hardest.

Kids need at least one good parent, every day. Usually best if it’s mom but a great father can be a superhero to his children. Dad can’t be there when the kids are at mom’s house. It’s not fair to expect any one parent to shoulder all of the responsibilities of raising children, particularly when there is s second parent in the same house. But life is what it is. As ra49 said…. they didn’t ask to be born. Someone has to be an advocate for them.

Lastly: It’s a lot easier for good kids to get into trouble when mom and dad are kicking them back and forth like a football. 100x worse when the parents are communicating through the children. Telling mom that they were at dad’s house and telling dad they were at mom’s house = sex, drugs and rock-n-roll. It doesn’t happen to every kid but it’s much harder for bad things to happen when that one good parent is going to look into their eyes at least once every day.

Speaking from experience here. And (obviously) longing for a different childhood.

 

[AspieChris]

AspieChris, despite the pushback that I am doing, I definitely see you are trying to help and value your ideas too. It’s just that mine are very different than yours in this situation.

I totally understand and agree. The OP is looking for ideas. The more diverse our suggestions are, the more helpful we can be. Even if we disagree

 

[Hypnalis]

@MartinM

Some thoughts for you.

1. It's extremely difficult for an NT to understand the nature of an Aspie. This isn't necessarily a relationship-killer, but it makes NT analysis of ND's very unreliable. Including an informal diagnosis.
2. It's not clear from the information you've provided if your wife is ASD or not. We're not the only group with an innate empathy deficit.
3. Aspies are no less likely to love their kids than NT's. And we tend to get on well with each other.
NB: My kids aren't on the spectrum, so I have no direct experience - but perhaps someone else can comment on how well "ASD mother with ASD children" works.

My reading of what you've said is that you're in a liminal state. You know you need to transform your life, but you can't quite see the path ahead. I can't suggest a goal or a direction, but a suggestion: commit to change.

You can't stay exactly where you are.
You could make further attempts to change things, or not. But anything you do needs success criteria and a timeframe.
On any failure, don't stop: set a new objective and work towards it.

 

[Aspychata]

I would never suggest taking away something that somebody loved. That's a horrible suggestion, and that is unacceptable. That's really just being a bully, and will drive a bigger wedge between two individuals. I would like to propose a sit-down between to adults in a neutral place, without the kids. At that point, taking a chance to clearly talk thru the status of the current marriage, and if it's feasible to continue or time to part. As always, we will never know the other side, so all we can do is try to free up the situation so that one person feels some relief in discussing it. I had nobody to talk to when going thru my divorce. This place provided a safe place for me to express myself. We both struggled, we both have different issues, no one was more right than the other. It just was. Sometime a space apart as @Rodafina suggested is a good start. Only then can you step back and decide if it is worth keeping the relationship. But often times due to finances, it's not possible.

 

[ra49]

MartinM, are you ok? We haven't heard from you since Thursday afternoon

Altho we all have lots of thoughts, we hope that something was helpful
And not too scary or harsh or intrusive

 

[AspieChris]

I would never suggest taking away something that somebody loved. That's a horrible suggestion, and that is unacceptable.

I agree. It’s an awful thing to do and I would never suggest it, but I went back and re-read the OP’s posts. He’s already tried all of the conventional, polite, respectful, responsible avenues of getting her to address the situation. He’s been trying for years to get her to see that the kids need help and she has completely ignored what is right in front of her face.

We’re only getting half of the story but the specific parts that he has described are either a complete lie (which I doubt), or she has serious problems and the children are on a path to suffering. She’s the bully.

 

[Magna]

Does your wife display empathy in any capacity, @MartinM ? For example, is she deeply affected by pain experienced by animals? Are there things she empathizes with that she herself has experienced (and therefore can identify with)?

It's a fallacy that autistic people have a complete lack of empathy. It's actually one of the big misperceptions which leads to judgements that we autistics have to battle against in society. In fact, autistics can often have hyper-empathy in and about situations that we're knowledgeable about, have experienced ourselves, etc. One reason for the incorrect misperception that autistics completely lack empathy is that we need details. We need to understand something as much as we can before we can give authentic empathy. It's very difficult for autistic people to be fake. To deliver contrived empathy which is common with NTs. Really, unless a person has actually experienced something similar, providing "empathy" about something you know little to nothing about yourself is a contrivance. I have a good number of autistic friends and have known them for some years and not a single one among us completely lack empathy and all of us agree that we simply need to understand the situation before we can react appropriately and with empathy that's commensurate with the experience the other person is going through.

Also, autistic people don't share a trait of being calculatingly manipulative, Machiavellian, using people like pawns, etc. Not me or the autistic people I know, that's for sure. We're usually so shut out and misunderstood from the world since time time we learned to walk, that we just want to love people who understand us.

There are however, some mental disorders in which a person literally does lack complete empathy. Psychopathy and Sociopathy come to mind.

 

[AspieChris]

I think we lost him…..
I went back and read through the first several posts from him and us.

Again, every response in this thread has missed the important point

We all went down a path that he wasn’t looking for. I think he was hoping for one big piece of insight into the mind of a person on the spectrum that he felt he had missed. We started (and continued) to offer love and support. That’s what we do and it’s why we’re here, but it just turned into mainly a discussion between ourselves about which way to properly help him. He was searching for a way to help her.

I hope I’m wrong. Maybe if the OP reads this he’ll come back. Or maybe he just got busy. Either way….. MartinM, we all hope you come back.

 

[Rodafina]

I think we lost him…..

What transpired in this thread is useful, I think.

For the original poster, reading insight from autistic folks and back-and-forth from people could really help the situation and for us the discussion was still useful because we shared important ideas.

The whole point is that he has to help himself. So getting ideas on how to help himself instead of changing his wife seems appropriate. We cannot tell people what they want to hear. But we can tell the truth from each of our own perspectives.

The pattern you have noticed is the most common pattern with this type of post.

My final advice to OP would be ask your wife if she wanted to join us here. No matter what sort of crisis an autistic person is in, it can sometimes be helpful to speak to other folks who can understand in a very deep way and share some similar communication patterns.

 

[Hypnalis]

OP needs to find his own way to move forward.

This isn't it:

Again, every response in this thread has missed the important point: she has not taken the first step of being open to self-awareness.