Pick-up

[Judge]

Thank you for talking about this. A lot of men have no idea how prevalent this is. My friend in Texas was almost kidnapped and she went out on a harmless date. It was a gang guy, he hit his brakes hard. Her head flew forward, but she didn't pass out. Then his other friend drove up, and something was planned. She thinks she would have been drugged and taken to Mexico. I had to call 911, it was too much for her to handle. Yes, l believe she is on the spectrum, and has a hard time making better choices.

Pretty ugly statistics that a lot of people aren't aware of. Making it dangerous out there for women even when it doesn't appear as such.

• Approximately 2/3 of sexual assaults are committed by someone the victim knows.
• 38% of rapists are a friend or acquaintance of the victim (U.S.Department of Justice, 2005 National Crime Victimization Study).

Perpetrators of Sexual Violence - New Hope, Inc.

 

[Aspychata]

Stepfather sexual abuse is very common, l was shocked to find out.

 

[Mia]

Thank you, Mia. While we don't live in a "dangerous" place, I took both my kids to martial arts classes and taught them how to defend themselves, physically and verbally alike. Sport and camaraderie were fun with both of them, but things were much more difficult with my daughter since, unfortunately, you have to make them aware at least to some extent of sexually predatory behaviour pretty early on, at an age you still hope they'll be allowed to preserve some of their innocence a little longer.

Many places are dangerous for young naive females and males on their own. Someone will attempt to take advantage of them, given the opportunity. I don't box anymore and didn't enter competitions, the boxing did some damage to my hands. But I did take taekwondo for many, many years. It gave me structure and a physical confidence that I would have otherwise not found in another sport. So I think you did an excellent thing for your children.

 

[Kalinychta]

Another one: when a man does a favor of some kind for you...and then asks you if he can take you to dinner or buy you a drink. Implication: he did something nice for you (which you interpreted simply as a small act of kindness from one human being to another), so therefore you must give him the opportunity to seduce you. You’re expected to understand from the get-go that if you’re not willing to have sex with him, then you shouldn’t have accepted his favor, and you’re supposed to feel guilted into saying yes. It’s so humiliating and uncomfortable.

 

[Mia]

he did something nice for you (which you interpreted simply as a small act of kindness from one human being to another), so therefore you must give him the opportunity to seduce you.

One of my girlfriends had difficulty with opening her apartment door. The key was stuck and her neighbour was passing by and helped her get the key out, she opened her apartment door just as he asked her to meet him for a coffee. When she said no, he became upset, and returned to his apartment slamming the door. I've done things like that for others, and did not expect or want anything in return. It's a kind thing to do for someone, and there should be no expectation of anything in return.

 

[Jumpback]

Definitely the regular guys. Serial killers are pretty rare, whereas interactions with regular guys is a daily occurrence for most women. We’re also influenced by the stories of other women. I’ve mentioned before on the forum that my sister is an emergency room nurse, and she says they see victims of rape pretty much every day (all women) and also girls and women who have had the hell beat out of them by their boyfriends/husbands (and again, she’s never had a male patient who was beaten by his girlfriend/wife). I was just talking to a friend last night who told me she was nearly sex trafficked in Brazil and nearly raped somewhere in the U.S. I have my own stories as well. None of these men are/were serial killers; they are regular guys.

There seems to be a level of agreement that women initiate at least some types of violence roughly as often as men, if not more. Part of the issue seems to be that the majority of women are not strong enough to injure the majority of men. I’ve had experiences where couple girlfriends have gotten mad and kicked or punched, but outside of one thing, it just didn’t hurt at all, so I guess I’ve experienced domestic violence or abuse, but it would seem crazy to report it since except for the one thing, it just felt like I was being treated disrespectfully since there wasn’t pain or fear.

Extensive Research: Women Initiate Domestic Violence More than Men, Men Under-report It.
Hope Solo and the Surprising Truth About Women and Violence
A Review of Research on Women’s Use of Violence With Male Intimate Partners

Sometimes women can be very sexually aggressive. My slightly older neighbor that just moved out came over a couple times after drinking trying to pressure me into sex. I just didn’t really mind. I probably would have complied if she wasn’t the neighbor and I didn’t want a relationship with her or for things to be constantly uncomfortable.

Again, the difference may be that I just was not afraid or she could have actually been strong enough to do something had she tried (she is nice though, she was just drinking and frustrated with her life).

I guess being a guy when dealing with women behaving physically badly or aggressively is nice since there is no feeling of being powerless or even out of control because unless the woman brings a weapon, there is nothing they could do to me except get a quick punch or kick or grab in.

 

[Jumpback]

In both delivering pizzas and buying antiques I have experienced inappropriate or lewd behavior from both women and gay men.

One time on pizza delivery these two very attractive completely nude girls invited me in. There were also a couple guys there. I guess they were just trying to be funny or shocking. I thought it was great. I guess if the sexes were reversed, and two guys were trying to shock a female pizza delivery driver, a woman might feel fear and out of control, but I just wished the two guys weren’t there and they would have became aggressive.

So I guess part of it is just that difference in strength between men and women means that as a guy you just never feel out of control and maybe another part is guys don’t have to deal with women propositioning them all the time unless maybe they are a professional athlete or like a 70s rock star with groupies.

 

[Jumpback]

Thank you for talking about this. A lot of men have no idea how prevalent this is.

This is true for me.

My friend in Texas was almost kidnapped and she went out on a harmless date. It was a gang guy, he hit his brakes hard. Her head flew forward, but she didn't pass out. Then his other friend drove up, and something was planned. She thinks she would have been drugged and taken to Mexico. I had to call 911, it was too much for her to handle. Yes, l believe she is on the spectrum, and has a hard time making better choices.

Sexual slavery seems to be a big problem in Mexico and a secondary source of income after drugs of gangs/cartels/whatever.

Human trafficking in the United States - Wikipedia

“According to the United States Department of State an estimated 20,000 women and children are trafficked into the United States each year by crossing the Mexico–United States border.[24]”

Human trafficking in Mexico - Wikipedia

Sex trafficking in Mexico - Wikipedia

“Drug cartels and gangs fighting in the Mexican War on Drugs have relied on sex trafficking as an alternative source of profit to finance their organizations, buy weapons, expand their territory, and for other purposes.[9][2][5][4] The cartels and gangs also abduct women to use as their personal sex slaves and force them into unfree labour.[9]”

 

[Jumpback]

Another one: when a man does a favor of some kind for you...and then asks you if he can take you to dinner or buy you a drink. Implication: he did something nice for you (which you interpreted simply as a small act of kindness from one human being to another), so therefore you must give him the opportunity to seduce you. You’re expected to understand from the get-go that if you’re not willing to have sex with him, then you shouldn’t have accepted his favor, and you’re supposed to feel guilted into saying yes. It’s so humiliating and uncomfortable.

I think it would help if women could explain how things like this make them feel to men in terms of things like control or fear or constant badgering or triggering previous assault trauma or however it makes sense, because I think finding some of these things upsetting is just foreign to many men.

Like for a lot of guys, a woman does a favor for him, then wants to buy him food, then wants to have sex with him is like just a positive thing unless he is completely not attracted to the woman. Partially, possibly, because these things happen so rarely for men and partially possibly because men just aren’t physically afraid and some some other reasons.

Like I suspect that at least some of the time, men’s perspectives are so different that they really don’t realize that they might be doing something upsetting. I’ll give an example: one time I was buying antiques and was alone with a woman in her house and she kept saying I was attractive. I don’t know what her motivation was or if she was just being complimentary, but the only thing that I felt at the moment was frustration that she was married, so I didn’t want to say or do anything about this. I would have been perfectly happy for things to go further right then and there, but as it was I just left feeling good about myself from all the compliments. I guess for a woman just trying to do her job alone in a house with a man who kept complimenting her appearance would have often caused fear or felt like harassment, but I just enjoyed the experience. Like I can imagine that these sorts of things would get old if they happened all_the_time_nonstop and was just this constant annoyance, but I have to imagine everything from a different perspective to grasp why something that was a positive for me given my perspective might bother someone else.

 

[BenderRodriguez]

Ella is correct: both women and men abuse, sometimes in different ways and human beings, in general, can do horrible things to each other.

But this thread was started by someone who wanted to talk about a specific behaviour, one that mostly men engage in. Personally, I don't see this thread as an attack on men in general, but a specific category of men (or better-said behaviour) and I believe that men who don't act this way should also speak against it because the consequences are affecting society as a whole, men included.

Jumpback: I'm new to this forum and don't fully understand the rules yet, but I also don't understand what goal are you trying to achieve here. If you suffered abuse from women and want support or to discuss what happened, why don't you start your own thread instead of derailing this one? I've had an abusive mother and I know a lot of autistic women have been bullied or shunned by women as well as men. You'd have a better chance of getting people to talk about their experiences if you didn't take Ella's objective observation and try to turn it into "women are worse", "how about my problems" or dismissing the very serious problem of sexual abuse and violence.

 

[Jumpback]

Ella is correct: both women and men abuse, sometimes in different ways and human beings, in general, can do horrible things to each other.

But this thread was started by someone who wanted to talk about a specific behaviour, one that mostly men engage in. Personally, I don't see this thread as an attack on men in general, but a specific category of men (or better-said behaviour) and I believe that men who don't act this way should also speak against it because the consequences are affecting society as a whole, men included.

Jupmpback: I'm new to this forum and don't fully understand the rules yet, but I also don't understand what goal are you trying to achieve here. If you suffered abuse from women and want support or to discuss what happened, why don't you start your own thread instead of derailing this one? I've had an abusive mother and I know a lot of autistic women have been bullied or shunned by women as well as men. You'd have a better chance of getting people to talk about their experiences if you didn't take Ella's objective observation and try to turn it into "women are worse", "how about my problems" or dismissing the very serious problem of sexual abuse and violence.

This is just what I do. It’s how I communicate and I have no one to talk to.

If you read through last things I wrote you might see that I am trying to fully understand and solve the problem. Such as how women could explain to men so they would understand better so they might not constantly make women feel uncomfortable

The talking about myself, especially in last messages, is solely to explain my reasoning.

Nobody else seems to work like me. The whole derailing concept is very foreign to me. Everything I say skips around from thing to thing and everything is related to everything else. Like I understand this is foreign to everyone else, but to me a conversation about women being abused by men is not a full conversation unless it talks about experiences of men or why these things might happen.

Like in this group therapy I am in they are talking about dealing with trauma and I start wanting to talk about flow charts and artificial intelligence because these are related to me. It gets lonely to be the only person who seems to reason things through like me and to be seen as annoying for just being me

 

[Juliettaa]

This is just what I do. It’s how I communicate and I have no one to talk to.

If you read through last things I wrote you might see that I am trying to fully understand and solve the problem. Such as how women could explain to men so they would understand better so they might not constantly make women feel uncomfortable

The talking about myself, especially in last messages, is solely to explain my reasoning.

Nobody else seems to work like me. The whole derailing concept is very foreign to me. Everything I say skips around from thing to thing and everything is related to everything else. Like I understand this is foreign to everyone else, but to me a conversation about women being abused by men is not a full conversation unless it talks about experiences of men or why these things might happen.

Like in this group therapy I am in they are talking about dealing with trauma and I start wanting to talk about flow charts and artificial intelligence because these are related to me. It gets lonely to be the only person who seems to reason things through like me and to be seen as annoying for just being me

I can see from your posts @Jumpback that you're trying to understand, but as @BenderRodriguez correctly pointed out, this thread was started and posted about the effects of abuse male to female.

That doesn't negate the impact of female to male, female to female or male to male abuse, but female to male abuse, which is the topic you are posting about, in what appears to be a reaction/defense to counter the many posts about male to female abuse and violence, is different.

Female to male abuse does happen. It's wider spread that most can imagine. And it should be on a thread on it's own. That way, you may get understanding directly related to your personal experiences without being seen as having a derailing effect on this thread.

You state 'Nobody else seems to work like me.'. I think if you start your own thread you will find that other people do think like you; perhaps not exactly the same as every single person is unique, but there will be something in common somewhere.

 

[BenderRodriguez]

@Jumpback: OK, how about this: you leave this thread or stop derailing it and make a thread of your own. If you send me the link once that's done, I'll join you and try to discuss the issues you're interested in and offer support if I can. I'm sure others will do too, it seems like @Juliettaa might also be willing to offer her view.

Since you'll be the OP, you can decide on the subject yourself and as long as you stay respectful, maybe women would actually feel more inclined to answer your questions, because it's pretty obvious they're not going to do it here.

What do you think?

 

[Jumpback]

I can see from your posts @Jumpback that you're trying to understand, but as @BenderRodriguez correctly pointed out, this thread was started and posted about the effects of abuse male to female.

That doesn't negate the impact of female to male, female to female or male to male abuse, but female to male abuse, which is the topic you are posting about, in what appears to be a reaction/defense to counter the many posts about male to female abuse and violence, is different.

Female to male abuse does happen. It's wider spread that most can imagine. And it should be on a thread on it's own. That way, you may get understanding directly related to your personal experiences without being seen as having a derailing effect on this thread.

You state 'Nobody else seems to work like me.'. I think if you start your own thread you will find that other people do think like you; perhaps not exactly the same as every single person is unique, but there will be something in common somewhere.

But if I started my own thread, I would want women to talk about their experiences and question things I say. It would be basically exactly the same discussion.

I really do seem to work differently. Like we were talking in group about trauma and decision making while depressed and such things and my thinking starts to go to ideas about how humans used stereotypes to group and flow charts and artificial intelligence. Like anything that occurs to me is almost always not going to be directly related and will seem like derailing.

 

[Juliettaa]

Excellent idea @BenderRodriguez

@Jumpback - please give serious consideration to the suggestion of starting your own thread. You have at least two members who will post in response.

But if I started my own thread, I would want women to talk about their experiences and question things I say. It would be basically exactly the same discussion.

No, it would not be the same. You are a man. We are women, talking from a woman's perspective of violence and abuse against us by men.

It's not the same.

 

[Jumpback]

@Jumpback: OK, how about this: you leave this thread or stop derailing it and make a thread of your own. If you send me the link once that's done, I'll join you and try to discuss the issues you're interested in and offer support if I can. I'm sure others will do too, it seems like @Juliettaa might also be willing to offer her view.

Since you'll be the OP, you can decide on the subject yourself and as long as you stay respectful, maybe women would actually feel more inclined to answer your questions, because it's pretty obvious they're not going to do it here.

What do you think?

It’s just impossible for me to explain. To me I am talking about the subject. Like, for example, if someone started talking about WWI era, I would want to start talking about the influence of Julius Caesar and classical education given to nobility since both the terms “Kaiser” and “Czar” come from the word “Caesar”. I understand that no one else does this, but to me a discussion of WWI makes no sense without understanding the influence looking back towards Rome had on the education of nobility. It would make no sense for me to start a new conversation about Ancient Rome, because I would be talking about WWI to me. I don’t know why the concept of things like staying on topic is viewed so differently by me and other people.

I apologize if I am annoying to other people, but I’m really just being me.

 

[BenderRodriguez]

That's ok, give it a shot man, start a new thread and we'll talk more about it there. You might be pleasantly surprised if you do and what do you have to lose?

 

[Aspychata]

Ella is correct: both women and men abuse, sometimes in different ways and human beings, in general, can do horrible things to each other.

But this thread was started by someone who wanted to talk about a specific behaviour, one that mostly men engage in. Personally, I don't see this thread as an attack on men in general, but a specific category of men (or better-said behaviour) and I believe that men who don't act this way should also speak against it because the consequences are affecting society as a whole, men included.

Jumpback: I'm new to this forum and don't fully understand the rules yet, but I also don't understand what goal are you trying to achieve here. If you suffered abuse from women and want support or to discuss what happened, why don't you start your own thread instead of derailing this one? I've had an abusive mother and I know a lot of autistic women have been bullied or shunned by women as well as men. You'd have a better chance of getting people to talk about their experiences if you didn't take Ella's objective observation and try to turn it into "women are worse", "how about my problems" or dismissing the very serious problem of sexual abuse and violence.

Sorry, my posts are a free post zone. The other posters know that about me. l invite dialogue because sometimes we can't cover all the things we wish to talk about. And l have enjoyed reading other ideas and experiences from such.

Don't want to shoot down someone for their beliefs. My beliefs did change after reading other posts here. l can only hope that it happens for that person.

Thank you for contributing, l also am glad you joined the this forum. And your voice is heard.☺

 

[Jumpback]

@Aspychata

It hasn’t been my intention to question any advice you have been given by women who have gone through similar things. Like, for example, I thought the suggestion to scowl or look aloof was quite good advice.


For example, super socially skilled used car salesman and social nincompoop computer nerd might approach a girl in a bar, and the computer nerd is far more likely to say creepy inappropriate things because he just doesn’t know what to say, while car salesman might seem like a great honest guy because he is so socially skilled. But the computer geek might only have good intentions, while the car salesman might be a bad guy.

Like I think the suggestion to scowl or look aloof is a good idea, but maybe women, like police, have to deal with so many guys approaching them/potential criminals that they sometimes make mistakes based on appearances. This does not mean that this isn’t good general advice of how to efficiently get rid of unwanted attention, it’s just I am trying to add in a potential issue with this approach.

Like people have to go by appearances because people can’t quickly guess at intentions and so on.

I have no idea how women can figure out how to avoid smooth talking Ted Bundy psychopaths, since by appearances Ted Bundy just seemed like a great guy or how they can efficiently tell some guy who says something creepy is just completely clueless but doesn’t mean any disrespect.

 

[Aspychata]

@Jumpback


Think we need to think about intention here. Intentions can vary just as approaches can vary. Maybe if you think in terms of certain woman get approached no matter what. So even if we have a frown or distant expression or whatever, we are still going to be approached. Men are visual, they are drawn to certain types of woman for one reason or another. So imagine some woman being hit upon in their lifetime due to this. Just like certain guys maybe hit upon for certain attributes. Their eyes, smile, hair, body type.