Physiological evidence for autism?

[DuckRabbit]

Does anyone know what the most incontrovertible biological evidence is for autism? (this includes neurological, genetic, physiological etc).

Also, does anyone know whether Asperger Syndrome has any of the same physiological/ biological/ neurological correlates as autism?

For that matter, does Asperger Syndrome have any known physiological substrates?

 

[Southern Discomfort]

I did a thread on this a month ago. Do you have dysmorphic features?

According to clinical research there can be some dysmorphic features in those with autism. As I said in the thread I have a couple, such as two crowns and a part of my nose is uneven.

Dysmorphic features are, however, not a universal things, by no means does every autistic people have them.

I have also read that autistic individual's brains are quite symmetrical compared to allistic people.

 

[DuckRabbit]

I have also read that autistic individual's brains are quite symmetrical compared to allistic people.

Thanks for this. I have also heard of this theory. Do you know whether it's well-established or still requires more evidence? I wonder if this has supplanted the theory that ASD individuals have a greater density of synapses, or maybe simply complements it...

Have you seen those pictures of psychopaths brains vs non-psychopaths? The images of psychopaths' brains tend to show some frontal lobe abnormalities. I was wondering if there is any comparable evidence for autistic vs. non-autistic brains.

Also, is there any evidence of biological differences between autism vs. Asperger Syndrome?

P.S. I think I should have used the term "biological" in my heading as "physiological" probably has connotations of "physical"!

 

[wight]

Structural MRI at the Autism Center of Excellence, UC San Diego
Autistic and non-autistic brain differences isolated for first time

These two articles solidly establish the brain structural differences between ASD and NT. There are also differences in brain structure between males and females on the autism spectrum.

I haven't read everything on the subject, however, I don't think neurological science has advanced far enough to make correlations between specific brain neurobiology and autism spectrum differences.

 

[DuckRabbit]

Structural MRI at the Autism Center of Excellence, UC San Diego
Autistic and non-autistic brain differences isolated for first time

These two articles solidly establish the brain structural differences between ASD and NT. There are also differences in brain structure between males and females on the autism spectrum.

I haven't read everything on the subject, however, I don't think neurological science has advanced far enough to make correlations between specific brain neurobiology and autism spectrum differences.

Thank you for these helpful articles. That is also the impression I had: neuroscience hasn't advanced far enough to distinguish between Asperger Syndrome and autism.

For those arguing "Autism is real - look at the neurobiological differences - but Asperger Syndrome is just a social-cultural construction/ just a matter of preferences: you can't prove it physiologically" --- what would you say?

 

[wight]

For those arguing "Autism is real - look at the neurobiological differences - but Asperger Syndrome is just a social-cultural construction/ just a matter of preferences: you can't prove it physiologically" --- what would you say?

I would point them to the mountains of research that indicate that although no specific mechanism for differentiating AS, HFA, and other ASD developmental disorders has been identified, that AS clearly IS a developmental disorder with underlying genetic and brains structure and brain function differences from NT.

I would also point them to the original research by Hans Aspberger. Aspbergers Syndrome is a real thing and not "learned behavior" nor a "social construct."

 

[Southern Discomfort]

Also, is there any evidence of biological differences between autism vs. Asperger Syndrome?

I don't know. An article that was linked in with the article I posted earlier was talking about Autism Spectrum Disorder - covering everybody. I'd presume they're also referring to people who are or would be diagnosed with Asperger's; they do talk about person with high IQs in there.

Dysmorphology as biomarker for the study of autism | Spectrum

Simon Baron-Cohen, a professor at the University of Cambridge has also pointed out that in autistic children the brain develops faster with more neuron connections and ends up larger than the typical brain. As he said the the documentary, 'My Curious Documentary'.

Have you seen those pictures of psychopaths brains vs non-psychopaths? The images of psychopaths' brains tend to show some frontal lobe abnormalities.

Yes, they have been able to spot differences in people's brains who have Anti-Social Personality Disorder. Although not enough to be used in the diagnosis stage. This isn't too much of a surprise, there's a range of mental illnesses that also have physiological differences, schizophrenia is a very well known one, depression too. In depression areas of the brain such as the hippocampus actually shrink and can take months to return to normal when a person is fighting back against it. Instead of looking at mental disorders as being all in the mind - a construction of electronical signals, we should be looking at them no differently than physical conditions. If people looked at them like that then a lot of the stigma would dissipate.

The difference between the physiological signs in illnesses like depression and anxiety disorders is that these signs can be changed over time with the correct treatment. Autism is a development condition and therefore has a lot more stable changes to the brain.

 

[WereBear]

Also, recent discoveries have highlighted that the brain is far more "plastic" than previously thought:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/01/160120201224.htm

 

[OkRad]

I have a long genetic duplication they think may have worked together with an environmental factor to cause mine. It's a Copy Number Variation.

 

[DuckRabbit]

Instead of looking at mental disorders as being all in the mind - a construction of electronical signals, we should be looking at them no differently than physical conditions. If people looked at them like that then a lot of the stigma would dissipate.

Are you saying that Asperger Syndrome is currently viewed ‘too’ psychologically (as a 'mental disorder') and needs to be looked at more neurobiologically?

Isn't this where the DSM is headed - towards a medicalisation of mental illness such as autism, so as to present hard, empirical evidence for mental disorders and avoid grappling with the intangible mind with all its cultural, social and individual variations? This is going to be difficult task, given that the medical community struggles to find medical causes even for some medical conditions – let alone finding causes for mental disorders! (Contested illnesses/diseases include chronic fatigue syndrome; fibromyalgia syndrome; irritable bowel syndrome; multiple chemical sensitivity).

Perhaps there should be an equal focus on identifying similarities between NT and ASD brains, not only differences (just as there should be for male and female brains). I heard about a study which tried to discern whether ASD individuals use different areas of the brain from NTs for categorising animate vs. inanimate objects. If I recall correctly, no differences were found between ASD and NT brains in this regard. I wonder how many studies which find no differences between ASD and NT are deselected for publication?

 

[DuckRabbit]

I don't know. An article that was linked in with the article I posted earlier was talking about Autism Spectrum Disorder - covering everybody. I'd presume they're also referring to people who are or would be diagnosed with Asperger's; they do talk about person with high IQs in there.

Dysmorphology as biomarker for the study of autism | Spectrum

Simon Baron-Cohen, a professor at the University of Cambridge has also pointed out that in autistic children the brain develops faster with more neuron connections and ends up larger than the typical brain. As he said the the documentary, 'My Curious Documentary'.



Yes, they have been able to spot differences in people's brains who have Anti-Social Personality Disorder. Although not enough to be used in the diagnosis stage. This isn't too much of a surprise, there's a range of mental illnesses that also have physiological differences, schizophrenia is a very well known one, depression too. In depression areas of the brain such as the hippocampus actually shrink and can take months to return to normal when a person is fighting back against it. Instead of looking at mental disorders as being all in the mind - a construction of electronical signals, we should be looking at them no differently than physical conditions. If people looked at them like that then a lot of the stigma would dissipate.

The difference between the physiological signs in illnesses like depression and anxiety disorders is that these signs can be changed over time with the correct treatment. Autism is a development condition and therefore has a lot more stable changes to the brain.

Thanks for this. Your post compelled me to look up more about essential autism vs. complex autism:

"Children with Complex Autism make up about 20% of the autistic population. They tend to have lower IQs, more physical and brain abnormalities including microcephaly, and are just as likely to be boys as girls. Essential Autism is male dominated, seven boys to every one girl, and sufferers tend to have less seizures plus a higher IQ. An important difference between Complex and Essential is that Complex is not hereditary where as Essential can be.
"If this distinction between the two type is valid then it could have some important implications for finding the causes and best treatments. As Complex Autism is non-hereditary and is high in congenital defects it points to a environment or external factor during pregnancy being the cause. Where as Essential Autism might be purely caused by genetics or an external factor such as mercury or a combination of both (see Blood Test for Autism?).
"On the treatment side, the symptoms and type of autism can predict a successful treatment. Successful being defined as an IQ greater than 70 and having verbal ability at eight years old or greater."
Source: Different Types of Autism: Complex and Essential - Myomancy

Are people still looking at external factors to explain ASD? This reminds me of psychoanalytic schools of thought which tried to identify the cause of homosexuality as residing in the nature of the relationship with the mother/ father etc. The assumption of psychopathology was automatic.

 

[Southern Discomfort]

an external factor such as mercury

It's hard to take an article seriously when they start mentioning things like that.

 

[Southern Discomfort]

Are people still looking at external factors to explain ASD? This reminds me of psychoanalytic schools of thought which tried to identify the cause of homosexuality as residing in the nature of the relationship with the mother/ father etc.

I don't know if people who are doing actual research like those at the University of Cambridge are looking into causes. So far they know that it's mostly genetic but not 100% so there is some room for environment factors - non-genetic ones. But I think they're more interested in the idea that because it's not 100% genetic that maybe there is scope for helping people on the spectrum to lead a normal life. But they are debating if that is an ethical thing too, or try to change someone from the natural path of progress for them.

 

[WereBear]

Just like someone can have Cerebral Palsy yet normal or better intellectual ability; just like people with brain injuries can have widely varying skills or deficits as they recover; so can autism occur along with other conditions.

Congenital blindness or deafness can occur with a large array of genetic conditions, but it would be silly to clump them all together as "blindness" or "deafness" being the defining factor.

So, I am thinking, that autism is a literal "state of mind" which occurs in an environment which either hinders or helps; can be co-morbid with other conditions just like anything else; and is only as challenging as the expectations thrust upon that person.

Look at a typical bright boy nerd in our society today. He has a career path in engineering or software design or even graphics or music. His talents are given a clear outlet. His social skills now have a defined box to rest in, and the Web allows him friends at a pace he can handle. He can do well, and have relationships, and be happy as easily as anyone else.

How can we call such a person "handicapped"? Especially since he has talents others do not?

I have autism. I also was fortunate that I am intelligent, was allowed to be a bookish child, and came of age along with the computer industry, giving me a career path. Absolutely no one, then or now, suspected I had Asperger's until circumstances forced me into situations I don't do well in long term.

Does anyone think less of a great chef if she is put into the space shuttle and told she is to lead the mission now? Or grab a surgeon out of her operating room and have her handle a complicated tax problem?

I see many of the people on this board struggle with environment problems; toxic parenting, school abuse, only one path to employment. That is not the fault of their autism. NTs have terrible problems when they have to deal with exactly the same thing.

This is a Difference. Autism itself... is it really a handicap? And to what?

 

[DuckRabbit]

From 'Schizophrenia: A Very Short Introduction' by Christopher Frith & Eve Johnstone, Oxford University Press, 2003, p. 43:

"... at some point we will have to decide whether a certain physical abnormality is a key feature of schizophrenia rather than an indication that the patient is suffering from some other disorder. There is a striking contrast here with the diagnosis of autism. This diagnosis is also based on a series of operational criteria describing various signs and symptoms. However, it is accepted that certain cases of autism may be associated with general medical conditions such as maternal rubella (German measles during pregnancy) or tuberous sclerosis (an obvious brain disease). Are we right to exclude patients with known brain disorders from the category of schizophrenia?"