MAKING AND KEEPING FRIENDS WITH NT's

[DogwoodTree]

what would you say are the main things which are the AS aspects?

Maybe if I understood I would find it easier to let these people go. It feels hard at the moment to stop analyzing it all because I am fixated

This is hard to answer because I'm still trying to figure it all out myself. Being fixated on a person or a group of people...this is really, really hard to explain to someone who has never been through it, but it really does (for me, at least) skew my every perception about every interaction with that person. This isn't just a casual friendship that should be nurtured and encouraged and can handle just normal ebb and flow of a growing relationship. My fixation on that person at that time is similar to a fixation on a special interest or something. This isn't the kind of energy that builds strong, healthy relationships, at least, not for me. That doesn't mean I can't be friends with that person, but I have to be very, very careful to just keep my distance emotionally and try as best I can to un-fixate...to unhook...before the relationship can become something healthy and pleasurable to either side. If I do a good job of covering it up, the other person doesn't realize how much of a struggle it's been for me and things just progress more naturally from their perspective. But on the rare occasion when I've let my obsession with a person become known, it's been very painful and confusing and frustrating. I don't want to hurt them or stalk them or scare them off...I would much rather abandon the relationship and let it go than force my presence on anyone. And the very existence of the need to try to find that balance sometimes makes it impossible for me to become friends with a particular person.

Like I said, it's so hard to explain. Every time I try to explain this, it comes out sounding twisted and scary. It's like there are so, so few people in this world that I feel like would be able to "get" me on more than just a superficial level...that when I find someone like that, I feel like I start desperately clinging to them, begging, please, please hear me. Please see me under all this mess. ...kind of like how a drowning person starts grabbing at the lifeguard trying to rescue them.

I haven't found the solution, except to focus on containing my emotional drama so they never see it, and try as best I can to find a healthy balance between giving them space and freedom while still reaching out to them, even if it means taking the relationship much more slowly than it might have gone if I weren't fixated on them. But in that relationship, it's like my developmental age drops by a few decades, and all the "rules" I've learned for how relationships should work, just melt under the pressure of so wanting to be understood by someone who seems like they might be capable of that. I might be talking to someone with whom I can carry on a normal conversation, but then this person walks into the room, and I turn into silly putty. I don't know how to act anymore. I'm learning how to cope with this, slowly growing out of it, but it is soooo slow.

 

[royinpink]

This is hard to answer because I'm still trying to figure it all out myself. Being fixated on a person or a group of people...this is really, really hard to explain to someone who has never been through it, but it really does (for me, at least) skew my every perception about every interaction with that person. This isn't just a casual friendship that should be nurtured and encouraged and can handle just normal ebb and flow of a growing relationship. My fixation on that person at that time is similar to a fixation on a special interest or something. This isn't the kind of energy that builds strong, healthy relationships, at least, not for me. That doesn't mean I can't be friends with that person, but I have to be very, very careful to just keep my distance emotionally and try as best I can to un-fixate...to unhook...before the relationship can become something healthy and pleasurable to either side. If I do a good job of covering it up, the other person doesn't realize how much of a struggle it's been for me and things just progress more naturally from their perspective. But on the rare occasion when I've let my obsession with a person become known, it's been very painful and confusing and frustrating. I don't want to hurt them or stalk them or scare them off...I would much rather abandon the relationship and let it go than force my presence on anyone. And the very existence of the need to try to find that balance sometimes makes it impossible for me to become friends with a particular person.

Like I said, it's so hard to explain. Every time I try to explain this, it comes out sounding twisted and scary. It's like there are so, so few people in this world that I feel like would be able to "get" me on more than just a superficial level...that when I find someone like that, I feel like I start desperately clinging to them, begging, please, please hear me. Please see me under all this mess. ...kind of like how a drowning person starts grabbing at the lifeguard trying to rescue them.

I haven't found the solution, except to focus on containing my emotional drama so they never see it, and try as best I can to find a healthy balance between giving them space and freedom while still reaching out to them, even if it means taking the relationship much more slowly than it might have gone if I weren't fixated on them. But in that relationship, it's like my developmental age drops by a few decades, and all the "rules" I've learned for how relationships should work, just melt under the pressure of so wanting to be understood by someone who seems like they might be capable of that. I might be talking to someone with whom I can carry on a normal conversation, but then this person walks into the room, and I turn into silly putty. I don't know how to act anymore. I'm learning how to cope with this, slowly growing out of it, but it is soooo slow.

Wow, kudos to you. I am so crap at controlling my fixations/obsessions. But online it is worse (not cues to 'cut it out' as mentioned earlier in the thread) and if I really force myself for a few months not to talk to them or talk about them and substitute them with someone else in my life, then slowly I can stop fixating on them. But if any one of those things stops, I can slip right back into it. :/ Some people are very forgiving, though. I'm like, what, you don't mind that I am bats**t crazy?

I like your description of the feeling as "how a drowning person starts grabbing at the lifeguard trying to rescue them"...this is what makes me think it's not totally unhealthy... Like, I'm reacting to someone who would actually be very good and healthy for me. I'm just over-reacting, and that's the problem. Do you find that eventually 'containing your emotional drama' and taking it slowly works for eventually having a healthy relationship? I find I need the person to be very stable and assuage my anxieties. If they are unable to do this, it gets worse, but if they can, I calm down and stop obsessing. The problem is, of course, every relationship takes time to reach that point, and there will be anxieties along the way, and I can't handle that very well.

 

[DogwoodTree]

Do you find that eventually 'containing your emotional drama' and taking it slowly works for eventually having a healthy relationship? I find I need the person to be very stable and assuage my anxieties. If they are unable to do this, it gets worse, but if they can, I calm down and stop obsessing.

I'm slowly finding that it is actually possible to get beyond that. It's so very painful and difficult...but possible. The key for me has been partly to recognize, that just needing that kind of reassurance from this particular person is a sign that I've not moved beyond the fixation enough to let the relationship move forward in a healthy way. I must get my security in who I am from within myself, or my relationship with that person will never be healthy. For me, it has become an exercise in accepting rejection from the person even though they never outright rejected me, while still keeping myself open to relationship with them. I know that sounds strange, but it's the only way for me to truly be free in the relationship, and to truly set them free from my demands. It's like...assuming the worst and hoping for "good enough" at the same time. It helps me slowly detach my emotional desperation from the relationship so there's breathing room to just be me and let them be just whoever they are.

If the other person has to babysit me through the relationship, it's not the kind of healthy relationship that will ultimately be beneficial and long-lasting. I must, must learn to view myself as an equal in the relationship with this person, and that means finding my value within myself, not from how committed they are to me.

Like I said, it hurts...incredibly so. But it's the only way I've found that even comes close to working, although it has been very, very slow.

 

[royinpink]

I'm slowly finding that it is actually possible to get beyond that. It's so very painful and difficult...but possible. The key for me has been partly to recognize, that just needing that kind of reassurance from this particular person is a sign that I've not moved beyond the fixation enough to let the relationship move forward in a healthy way. I must get my security in who I am from within myself, or my relationship with that person will never be healthy. For me, it has become an exercise in accepting rejection from the person even though they never outright rejected me, while still keeping myself open to relationship with them. I know that sounds strange, but it's the only way for me to truly be free in the relationship, and to truly set them free from my demands. It's like...assuming the worst and hoping for "good enough" at the same time. It helps me slowly detach my emotional desperation from the relationship so there's breathing room to just be me and let them be just whoever they are.

If the other person has to babysit me through the relationship, it's not the kind of healthy relationship that will ultimately be beneficial and long-lasting. I must, must learn to view myself as an equal in the relationship with this person, and that means finding my value within myself, not from how committed they are to me.

Like I said, it hurts...incredibly so. But it's the only way I've found that even comes close to working, although it has been very, very slow.

Rejection from people causes me to melt down (in a depressive way, not a temper meltdown). Badly. Afterward...maybe I will still want a relationship with them, and maybe I will not be able to trust them again. I think it depends on how I felt about the relationship deep down beforehand. I know now that my reaction doesn't mean I really 'need' them, it's product of my own issues only.

I think what you say ("I must, must learn to view myself as an equal in the relationship with this person, and that means finding my value within myself, not from how committed they are to me.") is generally true and good advice, for everyone.

I think I'm talking about something other than being babysat, as you put it, although I could always be fooling myself. Just a high level of security, where I feel I am safe to make mistakes and be myself, and they will still be there. By assuaging my anxieties, I don't mean attending to them...that probably wouldn't work anyway. It's more that just with their presence they make me feel that those anxieties are baseless and silly. But I wonder here if the key to my sense of security is actually not being quite as dependent on them. Not wanting or respecting them quite as much. I don't know. Whatever it is took time to develop.

Your post has reminded me of how long it took to get to this point. Kinda want to take back some things I said. What I said about "I'm reacting to someone who would actually be very good and healthy for me" really only applies to one person. Or maybe a few people, but at a much lower intensity of relationship than I wanted. And with that one person, I did indeed need to be rejected/cut off...and in some ways that helped, but in other ways it only increased my neediness, and I was unable to learn to find value in myself alone.

 

[ayoungaspie]

DogwoodTree royinpink

Wow, your posts really sum up the things which are going on in my head regarding the people I mentioned. Thanks!

Basically these friendships never developed for me because I was too shy and passive and as a result my personality didn't shine through properly. I became fixated and decided to always wait for them to initiate a conversation, so I felt that reassurance thing when they did communicate. This guy in particular who I haven't actually spoken to for 6 months now, I'm clearly not on his "radar" anymore I guess. My gut feeling is that he doesn't need me because he has a friendship with another guy who he shares the online gaming interest with. The 6-month gap also makes it awkward to try and jump start things.

So with all that said, am I right to abandon the relationship and not contact him again, unless of course, he does decide to get back in touch? I don't know. I will probably go with my gut feeling, but the fact that I always waited for him to make contact in the past makes me wonder if things would be different if I had been more proactive. But I don't know if it's a good idea to now decide to take the initiative, because it will feel like I'm forcing my presence (as you put it)? Even though it's probably too late.

 

[royinpink]

I wanted clarify what I meant about these two alternate ways of coping: 'secure' relationship and accepting rejection. I think it comes down to attachment styles (combined with our obsessive nature). There's a chart on the wikipedia page that describes how people with different attachment styles get locked into certain patterns with partners (somebody who has healthy relationships is "securely attached"):

The first strategy is called the security-based strategy. The diagram below shows the sequence of events in the security-based strategy.


A person perceives something that provokes anxiety. The person tries to reduce the anxiety by seeking physical or psychological closeness to her or his partner. The partner responds positively to the request for closeness, which reaffirms a sense of security and reduces anxiety. The person returns to her or his everyday activities.

The second strategy is called the hyperactivation, or anxiety attachment, strategy. The diagram below shows the sequence of events in the hyperactivation strategy.


The events begin the same way. Something provokes anxiety in a person, who then tries to reduce anxiety by seeking physical or psychological closeness to a partner. The partner rebuffs the request for greater closeness. The lack of responsiveness increases feelings of insecurity and anxiety. The person then gets locked into a cycle with the partner: the person tries to get closer, the partner rejects the request for greater closeness, which leads the person to try even harder to get closer, followed by another rejection from the partner, and so on. The cycle ends only when the situation shifts to a security-based strategy (because the partner finally responds positively) or when the person switches to an attachment avoidant strategy (because the person gives up on getting a positive response from the partner).
​

So maybe we're just talking about two alternate strategies. I would say the shift to a more secure relationship was gradual, and at first it was still rather unhealthy, but over a year or two, I began to change as their reactions demonstrated that my anxieties were unfounded. As for the alternative of accepting rejection, sometimes I am strong enough to do it, but sometimes I just get trapped in that cycle where rejection increases my anxiety and so on. Maybe it would work better if I just imagined the rejection like I think DogwoodTree is suggesting, using it as a safe, mental exercise rather than real rejection that is too much for me to control and cope with. It is by no means easy, though. (Most) humans need relationships. We cannot force ourselves to be wholly independent when that is not our inclination.

Also, ayoungaspie, I am not sure that what I am saying works as well for casual friendships. I am mostly talking about romantic relationships or sexual partners. I think most people would be put off by this level of anxiety over a casual friendship. So in that case, I definitely agree that the preferred strategy would be to keep it hidden. Please don't think I'm being patronizing--I just don't have casual friends. I'm too intense. So I think that would be really hard. I empathize with you.

I cannot answer your question as I don't fully understand the situation. Are these people you met in real life? I don't see a problem with just casually saying 'Hey, it's been awhile, wanna play....(whatever)?' but it might be better for you to try to meet someone new. It might help you get over the fixation.

 

[ayoungaspie]

royinpink

Yes, I knew them in real life 2 or 3 years back and have met up with them in person a few times since (but not in the last year). I would start a conversation but I am worried it will be dead if he isn't that interested in talking. Then I will just think I should have left it and feel even more awkward/anxious.

 

[royinpink]

royinpink

Yes, I knew them in real life 2 or 3 years back and have met up with them in person a few times since (but not in the last year). I would start a conversation but I am worried it will be dead if he isn't that interested in talking. Then I will just think I should have left it and feel even more awkward/anxious.

Hmm...I think DogwoodTree's suggestion is best here--imagining and accepting the rejection beforehand as a way of preparing yourself psychologically. That way if they respond, it's a pleasant surprise, but if they don't, you've already begun the coping process. And then DISTRACT YOURSELF. Like, while you are waiting for their reply (assuming you would text or something), find something to do that takes all of your attention and where you cannot check your messages. If you feel this is too much trouble or you don't know how to do it, maybe it would be easier to just try talking with someone else. There are others. It doesn't have to be these guys.

 

[Spiller]

This is hard to answer because I'm still trying to figure it all out myself. Being fixated on a person or a group of people...this is really, really hard to explain to someone who has never been through it, but it really does (for me, at least) skew my every perception about every interaction with that person. This isn't just a casual friendship that should be nurtured and encouraged and can handle just normal ebb and flow of a growing relationship. My fixation on that person at that time is similar to a fixation on a special interest or something. This isn't the kind of energy that builds strong, healthy relationships, at least, not for me. That doesn't mean I can't be friends with that person, but I have to be very, very careful to just keep my distance emotionally and try as best I can to un-fixate...to unhook...before the relationship can become something healthy and pleasurable to either side. If I do a good job of covering it up, the other person doesn't realize how much of a struggle it's been for me and things just progress more naturally from their perspective. But on the rare occasion when I've let my obsession with a person become known, it's been very painful and confusing and frustrating. I don't want to hurt them or stalk them or scare them off...I would much rather abandon the relationship and let it go than force my presence on anyone. And the very existence of the need to try to find that balance sometimes makes it impossible for me to become friends with a particular person.

Like I said, it's so hard to explain. Every time I try to explain this, it comes out sounding twisted and scary. It's like there are so, so few people in this world that I feel like would be able to "get" me on more than just a superficial level...that when I find someone like that, I feel like I start desperately clinging to them, begging, please, please hear me. Please see me under all this mess. ...kind of like how a drowning person starts grabbing at the lifeguard trying to rescue them.

I haven't found the solution, except to focus on containing my emotional drama so they never see it, and try as best I can to find a healthy balance between giving them space and freedom while still reaching out to them, even if it means taking the relationship much more slowly than it might have gone if I weren't fixated on them. But in that relationship, it's like my developmental age drops by a few decades, and all the "rules" I've learned for how relationships should work, just melt under the pressure of so wanting to be understood by someone who seems like they might be capable of that. I might be talking to someone with whom I can carry on a normal conversation, but then this person walks into the room, and I turn into silly putty. I don't know how to act anymore. I'm learning how to cope with this, slowly growing out of it, but it is soooo slow.

Well said DogwoodTree, I've worked on the same realisation for some time now, consciously refusing to obsess and over think friendship situations; if I've not heard from someone, I don't know why, so I mustn't wonder why; if someone rejects me I must already accept that, it's common enough in my experience after all and trying to hang on to who I think that person is when I really don't even know them well, is just painful for me.
I think that, because NT's are able to 'cultivate' a large group of casual aquaintances from which they pick closer friends and partners, they don't develop the same sensitivity/anxiety issues regarding possible rejection, whereas I'm fortunate to make one or two friends at any one time, usually with no pool to draw from, just an uncommon random encounter, so I'm so much more sensitive to possible failure as the stakes are so much higher - I can't just draw someone else from the pool.
The hard part, I think, is keeping the anxiety under control, hard to do when it stems from trying to socialise when I don't know how, when I'm trying to guess at social cues and constantly wondering if I've interpreted correctly, or just missed something entirely.
I've had to learn to continually monitor and control my thoughts and feelings for my own sake. Yes, it's painful to be rejected, acceptance is one of our strongest instincts as social animals after all, but maintaining a one-sided attachment just wastes time and energy I could be devoting to putting myself back out there in the hopes of further random encounters..

 

[ayoungaspie]

DogwoodTree royinpink Spiller

Well, I think I've pretty much decided to go with my gut feeling regarding the guy I haven't spoke to in 6 months, which is basically that the friendship didn't develop, partly because I wasn't proactive enough (and because of my anxieties, my personality didn't shine through like I mentioned before). Now that he fulfills his interests with the other guy I don't really see the point in trying to force more contact. If he decides to get back in touch with me then great, maybe it's another story, but otherwise I'll just let it go.

I'm going to make this a learning experience though and in future try to get things right when potential friends turn up. And I'll definitely follow your advice Spiller and make sure I don't get obsessed in the first place!

 

[Grumpy Cat]

You guys are thinking about it too much and you're going to come across as desperate. A new friendship for me is very non-chalant. I have to see if we click in certain ways and I can tell if they want to be friends by what kind of interest they show. I never expect and put all my eggs in one basket that a friendship will happen with a certain person. Maybe it's because I'm NT, but I can "feel" if a friendship is developing and then I try to tend to it and make it grow. If that makes any sense. I never act like I need their friendship. I'm kinda standoffish at first - not in personality, just in putting off that I don't need friends- so if someone wants to stay around me then they must really like me. I'm rambling cause I'm tired so I'll say goodnight and I'm off to bed.

 

[Grumpy Cat]

It's me again. Please don't any of you take this the wrong way, but listening to you is making me sad. I was trying to figure out why I was sad and its because you guys are trying to figure out how to make friends "logically" and there isn't anything logical about friendship - it's about "feelings". You just "know" when you click with someone cause it just "feels" right and there's no way for me to explain how that happens. After I can " feel" that a friendship clicks, then I can logically plan what I need to do to make it happen. For me, Friendships are all about how I feel when I'm around this person. Does that make any sense? And I don't need friends. If it happens then it happens, but I will not have fake friends. That's a waste of my time.

 

[ayoungaspie]

Grumpy Cat

Well I do realise at one point this guy clicked with me and showed interest in a friendship, but as far as I'm concerned I damaged it by behaving the way I did. I don't know if the friendship was actually developing and I missed the signals, but now it's already in the past and it's not that I won't remain open to being friendly with him, I'll just leave it alone for now at least.

The other guy I might have mentioned (sorry for the confusion about these different people!) has made some effort to keep in touch so I will at least carry on talking to him, but accept that his priority will be playing online with the other guys.

With all that said I'm sorry it's making you sad Maybe because I'm not NT I struggle to grasp your idea of friendship.

 

[ayoungaspie]

Correction: As an Aspie I obviously analyze things way too much which is why logic and feelings can get mixed up.

 

[Grumpy Cat]

It makes me sad because I wish you guys could make friends because I know you're good people. I just don't think there's going to be any "easy" ways for you and I think it's because you think logically about everything. I don't know what to do about that. I think a lot of things go into making friendships and relationships work well and it's even hard for NT's which means its probably doubly hard for Aspies. I have actually tried to start several friendships with certain Aspies here and I have to say it is difficult at times. I try to make small talk that friends would do and whoever I'm talking to all of a sudden doesn't say a whole lot or stops talking all together. I know it's probably because they're Aspie but how is a friendship supposed to get started with no talking? Me and my Aspie friend talked a lot in the beginning, but now that we know each other better and I know he needs his free time, I'm ok with that and we talk less, but I feel comfortable in the friendship now. I'm just sad because I want you all to have friends and not think you are always the problem for things not working out. I'm really off to bed now. Nighto.

 

[Spiller]

Hey Angie, I understand intellectually what you mean when I act the scenario out in my head, but the social cues you're so aware of and the 'rules of the game' you've learned through your life are simply beyond many of us. I don't understand, for instance, how and when to act standoffish, though I get the concept, when I don't feel standoffish.. how do you know when to stop doing that and start acting friendly? What if you're standoffish too little or too much, or for too long? I have feelings, I'm a very emotional guy compared to many NT men, but I can't apply them in the same way you can.. maybe because I can't read the cues, and/or maybe because I've become so anxious to get it right this time..
As an NT (and a wonderful one at that ), you follow a subconscious flow chart or set of rules you learned as a child, interacting with your peers, that allows you to modify your behaviour toward another depending on how you feel about them and what you perceive through body language. if the relationship fails, you subconsciously adjust your rules to ensure a more preferable outcome next time.
As an Aspie, I haven't the ability to learn and implement what, to me, is an arbitrary system in favour of acting the way I feel at the time (I actually wonder if it's a complete lack or delayed learning, such that I fell behind early on and never associated with a peer group I could learn the rules from to start with), hence trying to compensate with logic - a consciously learned set of artificial rules based on observation (tricky at best anyway, as social mores change over time). Unfortunately this means, for me, that I can't act in the way the majority do, I just have to hope that someone occasionally 'takes pity' (yuck), or better still likes me for who I am from the start and isn't put off when I act differently to social norms. This makes almost any relationship a very hit and miss affair and rather rare for me and the subsequent isolation only serves to increase my social anxiety and probably exacerbates my difficulty next time.. Ah, me
Don't feel sad though, my sweet, it's just your mates doing what we do..

 

[DogwoodTree]

you guys are trying to figure out how to make friends "logically" and there isn't anything logical about friendship - it's about "feelings". You just "know" when you click with someone cause it just "feels" right and there's no way for me to explain how that happens.

So let's say, for whatever fantastical reason, your life and well-being completely depend on your ability to understand and perform advanced mathematical calculations. Everyone else at your work, being savant aspies, just "know" how to figure all this stuff out, and they're befuddled that it doesn't make sense to you.

How can this not make sense? It just IS! Can't you see that?

But it doesn't click, and no matter how hard you study and try, you'll never be as good as they are, and you're terrified you're going to lose your job as a result. They keep telling you, you're just over thinking it! Just let it roll out! But that doesn't help, because it will never, no matter how hard you try, ever come naturally to you. You might learn algorithms and tricks to get you through day by day, but it will always be a struggle. And yet, you have no other job options.

That, I think, is kinda somewhat how it feels for me with making friends. The harder I try, the worse I do, but to stop trying is a guarantee of failure.

 

[Judge]

You just "know" when you click with someone cause it just "feels" right and there's no way for me to explain how that happens.

Many of us are objectively incapable of processing input in such a manner. That while you can explain the mechanics, and we can understand what you are saying, it still leaves us with the same inability to emotionally process it.

Or as DogwoodTree puts it, "It just is".

For us there's something "missing" in this social equation that an explanation alone cannot restore.

 

[watersprite]

I'm confused.

 

[Grumpy Cat]

So let's say, for whatever fantastical reason, your life and well-being completely depend on your ability to understand and perform advanced mathematical calculations. Everyone else at your work, being savant aspies, just "know" how to figure all this stuff out, and they're befuddled that it doesn't make sense to you.

How can this not make sense? It just IS! Can't you see that?

But it doesn't click, and no matter how hard you study and try, you'll never be as good as they are, and you're terrified you're going to lose your job as a result. They keep telling you, you're just over thinking it! Just let it roll out! But that doesn't help, because it will never, no matter how hard you try, ever come naturally to you. You might learn algorithms and tricks to get you through day by day, but it will always be a struggle. And yet, you have no other job options.

That, I think, is kinda somewhat how it feels for me with making friends. The harder I try, the worse I do, but to stop trying is a guarantee of failure.

This actually is true. I may be good at understanding socializing, but I will never understand math. That's why I said that I don't believe there is anything an NT could say that would help an Aspie obtain friends. You could put me in a room with a million math tutors, but I will only be able to understand some kinds of math.