Long-term NT-Aspie Relationship: Is Invalidation Normal?

[Devany]

Hello everyone ,
This is my first post and I am looking for advice on certain aspects of my relationship with my Aspie partner. A little intro to our couple : I am a NT woman who is in a long-term relationship with an (undiagnosed) Aspie man. We have been together for almost 5 years and just started living together in May 2016. We care for each other very much! I am currently completing my Doctor's degree in psychology and aiming to become a professional clinician. He works in information technology. He is very high functioning and from first meeting him most people would not guess he is on the spectrum. He is bright, funny, honest, loyal, and can even be very tender and affectionate at times. I am curious, energetic, and sensitive. Unlike what I have come to understand about most aspie-NT relationships, we have a very fulfilling and intimate sexual life. However, unsurprisingly, many of our problems lie in communicating and emotional intimacy. I am having trouble adjusting to certain aspects of living together, most notably his more rigid patterns and difficulty changing ineffective patterns. For example, a sort of silly one, we have a laundry hamper basket and my aspie bf consistently puts his clothes right in front of the basket instead of inside the basket. Sigh. I have asked him (politely and with a clear explanation of why it's important to me = easier since all in once place, having a clean aesthetic environment is important to me) many times to put the clothes in the basket but he simply does not do it. More seriously, he adopts some very invalidating behaviours towards me, especially when I express discontent (again, being aware of his difficulties, I try to be very clear about what I need/want). I am basically questioning whether his invalidating attitude is part of aspergers or his personality. He has on more than one occasion said the following : you're just trying to annoy me on purpose, stop creating stories in your head, you're just acting up to get attention, etc. On a few occasions he has even told me to 'shut up' '**** off' and even once threatened, while we were on a trip : 'if you don't stop acting up (i was crying about an insensitive comment he had made) I will leave you on the side of the road!" He can raise his voice sometimes without being aware...I will point it out and he will deny it. I've also experienced stonewalling, silent treatment and shutting himself in our office. I recognize that some of this is my fault as well. Of course, it takes two to tango...meaning problems usually arise due to both parties. I can be sensitive, crying and occasionally placing blame and complaining ineffectively. I have been working a lot on trying to stay calm when expressing something to him, using direct clear statements, using 'I' instead of blaming. This is often to no avail. I often feel that he sees me as the source of all problems, he doesn't recognize his behaviour as sometimes inappropriate....this is all so frustrating as he almost never apologizes. I am wondering what parts I should tolerate and what I should not. I try to be compassionate and see things from his perspective and I recognize that most comments are probably unintentionally rude. However, sometimes it hits so close to home that it seems manipulative. Even when I ask him to stop saying these things he defiantly defends his point of view. I could say a lot more but I will stop here for now. I love him very much and I know he loves me too. I want to find better ways to interact and I want to know more about Aspies' opinions on the matter. Thank you!!

 

[OkRad]

<Sigh> We get this about once a week. We even started a thread on why we are so hard to date.

My opinion is the the saying "If you met one Autie or Aspie you met ONE autie or aspie."

In the end, NTs have to make the decision . I don't know what to say because it's tough . I would not date me, but I wish there were someone out there who could............! So you are a good person, but don't think things will change. YOU will do all the changing. We are like fixed entities.

 

[Bolletje]

A lot of this behavior just sounds like manipulative asshattery to me. Like @OkRad said, if you've met one aspie, you've met one aspie. Unfortunately there's no complete guide to dating Aspies as we're not all the same.

Some Aspies are mean and manipulative, some are absolute sweethearts. I think it shouldn't be a question of whether his behavior is Aspie behavior, but rather whether or not this is behavior you're willing to put up with.
You're wondering what behavior you should and shouldn't tolerate but that's really a line only you can draw.

 

[Fridgemagnetman]

I honestly wish I had been the recipient of your approach. You demonstrate patience and understanding.
I need to be told why or it's not going to happen. I also genuinely forget. I am improving.
It's not a matter of being inconsiderate it's genuinely forgetting.
Imagine someone who has spent their whole life being defensive, small things-like the washing- can send him/me into defend and protect mode -hence you receive harsh words.

You're in a good position. You can use your love and flexibility to communicate differently (might still not work)

Imagine five different universes (narrow it down a bit)
That moment when you said and he did..... write that down. Thing of four or five different things you could have said in that moment.
Each thing you say would get a different reaction.
For me a logical approach would work better. Pros/cons
Thing of someone whose whole life has been on edge, where it's a massive effort just to be..,
Where any small criticism is an emergency (just perceived as)

You've got a good chance to break through, to someone who may be special... with a small enough % 'a@@hole' that it's liveable.
What would happen if you asked for his help?
Would he shut down?

For me the washing thing was the socks have to go in a bag.
Mostly they go in the bag now, still forget.... I think my wife has accepted its not malice... so I can sort of tell now it's seems easier to do it.

Use your superpower as an NT, be flexible and write things down to take a step away from your emotions (kryptonite from aspie eyes)

 

[Southern Discomfort]

I wouldn't by any stretch say there isn't or can't be malicious, manipulating behaviour here. He might not understand what he's doing all the time consciously however. Everyone needs to understand that when an autistic person does something it's not always because they don't understand, we're capable of doing the mean things as well. It's just harder to determine which things are intentional and what isn't and getting it wrong can be damaging to both parties.

I can't be of great help when it comes to ineffective routines. I'm not a very structured person in that regard, at least not anywhere as close to other people out there, nor do I live with someone who needs that sort of routine in their tasks. But if it was me, I would like to know what the most efficient course of action is but that's what I love and gives me a lot of satisfaction. Doing something that isn't the best way to do something seems like a waste. If he is anything like me - which he very much may not, he might like to know the most efficient way to do something. I don't know if pointing what is and isn't efficient helps. Might not.

he doesn't recognize his behaviour as sometimes inappropriate....this is all so frustrating as he almost never apologizes. I am wondering what parts I should tolerate and what I should not.

I think it really depends on what are the situations of this inappropriate behaviour. He can't apologise for every mistake he makes and you do recognise that and that's good. Sometimes pointing out what isn't appropriate might help if you do it in a neutral manner when he isn't upset.

It might be more practical if I direct you to some literature on dating someone with autism.

What Men with Asperger Syndrome Want to Know About Women, Dating and Relationships

That might be helpful for you.

Decoding Dating

Might be helpful for him.

 

[Suzanne]

Just like NT's, who come in all sorts of emotional baggage and also how different sexes respond etc, aspies are the same.

Personally if you want to be respected, then you ought to say good bye to this relationship, because the man is being cruel and manipulative toward's you.

I have a ritual when I wash up and often my husband will appear with a cup in his hand and I can feel myself burning with anger and seeing the cup as a deep offensive to me! I hate how my husband seems to loom it in front of me and do react by saying: yes but I have done the cups and on the next stage now and he comes out with: you and your flipping rituals! I then said: well if you grab a tea cloth and dry some up, then I can wash it and so that is what happened.

The part about the laundry; seems more a male thing, rather than an aspie ie he can't be bothered or he thinks that is your role to put it in the laundry, unless he has specified that somehow it makes him ill to put it in the laundry, but to actually just ignore you when you specifically say things to him, is just plain nasty on his part.

The bit about hitting back when you admit how bad you feel, is a guy who does not want to be bothered to listen and adapt.

Aspies can adapt in many ways. When my husband asks me to lower my voice, yes it does frustrate me, but I do lower it, because it was brought to my notice. It embarrasses me, but I would not shout abuse at him.

 

[Devany]

<Sigh> We get this about once a week. We even started a thread on why we are so hard to date.

My opinion is the the saying "If you met one Autie or Aspie you met ONE autie or aspie."

In the end, NTs have to make the decision . I don't know what to say because it's tough . I would not date me, but I wish there were someone out there who could............! So you are a good person, but don't think things will change. YOU will do all the changing. We are like fixed entities.

Thank you for the input. I absolutely agree about how every Autie / Aspie is different! Of course, I wish there was a simpler answer, but I recognize the complexity of each situation is different. My partner often indicates how it is hard for him to adapt, but I do see effort on his part. When we started dating, he had a hard time sleeping next to me in the same bed because it wasn't part of his routine and he was over stimulated by my presence (new sounds, sensations, etc.) But we now sleep in the same bed and he has adapted (although it took a longer adjustment period he made the effort). I guess I always knew I would be the one changing more and in my heart I know he's a good person with his own reasons for becoming very defensive in the face of criticism. He often says I am the decionmaker/mastermind behind our couple. So what you said about me making the final decision about staying definitely resonates with me. At the moment, I am committed to the relationship and to him. I just need a place where I can also get information/support on my end when things get tough. I believe this place will help me. Does anyone know of any other sites specifically for support groups of NTs coupled with Aspies?

 

[Devany]

I think it shouldn't be a question of whether his behavior is Aspie behavior, but rather whether or not this is behavior you're willing to put up with.
You're wondering what behavior you should and shouldn't tolerate but that's really a line only you can draw.

Indeed! I am the only person who can know my own limits. I am the one in the relationship after all. As I stated before @OkRad, I am not looking to leave the relationship. Identifying my limits is my issue alone, one I've struggled with for many years. I guess, more than anything, I am looking to find support for some of the difficulties I face in our relationship (emotional invalidation) and for tips on how to improve the interactions between me and my partner. Some other aspects that are difficult include his extreme low self-esteem...I think I'll create another post to see if anyone has any suggestions of how to positively respond to someone who continually puts himself down (aka he says, "I suck", "I am stupid" "I am poop", etc...). I am always disagreeing or asking him 'what makes you say that?' But he persists for the most part despite any intervention or reassurance on my part.

 

[Devany]

I honestly wish I had been the recipient of your approach. You demonstrate patience and understanding.
I need to be told why or it's not going to happen. I also genuinely forget. I am improving.
It's not a matter of being inconsiderate it's genuinely forgetting.
Imagine someone who has spent their whole life being defensive, small things-like the washing- can send him/me into defend and protect mode -hence you receive harsh words.

You're in a good position. You can use your love and flexibility to communicate differently (might still not work)

Imagine five different universes (narrow it down a bit)
That moment when you said and he did..... write that down. Thing of four or five different things you could have said in that moment.
Each thing you say would get a different reaction.
For me a logical approach would work better. Pros/cons
Thing of someone whose whole life has been on edge, where it's a massive effort just to be..,
Where any small criticism is an emergency (just perceived as)

You've got a good chance to break through, to someone who may be special... with a small enough % 'a@@hole' that it's liveable.
What would happen if you asked for his help?
Would he shut down?

For me the washing thing was the socks have to go in a bag.
Mostly they go in the bag now, still forget.... I think my wife has accepted its not malice... so I can sort of tell now it's seems easier to do it.

Use your superpower as an NT, be flexible and write things down to take a step away from your emotions (kryptonite from aspie eyes)

I absolutely loved this post! These kinds of tips are very helpful to me. I appreciate you sharing your experience. It makes me feel less confused. The thing about any small criticism is an emergency : YES ! It's that he has needed to defend himself his whole life against a hyper-criticizing father. So, part of me understands where he is coming from, but I am not his father and I am not trying to criticize more than I am just trying to be heard on certain needs. He is very sensitive to criticism. He also hates when I reflect this to him. 'I am not trying to criticize here or hurt your feelings, I know you can be sensitive with what you went through...' he responds, "stop psychoanalysis me!" Woops! I was trying to be kind and honestly...It's in my nature to analyze situations because I am training to be a psychologist . All my usual awesome psych skills seem to have no effect...(validation, open questions, showing interest in his stories)...I digress. I will definitely try the writing things down and envisioning different scenarios technique!

 

[Devany]

I wouldn't by any stretch say there isn't or can't be malicious, manipulating behaviour here. He might not understand what he's doing all the time consciously however. Everyone needs to understand that when an autistic person does something it's not always because they don't understand, we're capable of doing the mean things as well. It's just harder to determine which things are intentional and what isn't and getting it wrong can be damaging to both parties.

I can't be of great help when it comes to ineffective routines. I'm not a very structured person in that regard, at least not anywhere as close to other people out there, nor do I live with someone who needs that sort of routine in their tasks. But if it was me, I would like to know what the most efficient course of action is but that's what I love and gives me a lot of satisfaction. Doing something that isn't the best way to do something seems like a waste. If he is anything like me - which he very much may not, he might like to know the most efficient way to do something. I don't know if pointing what is and isn't efficient helps. Might not.



I think it really depends on what are the situations of this inappropriate behaviour. He can't apologise for every mistake he makes and you do recognise that and that's good. Sometimes pointing out what isn't appropriate might help if you do it in a neutral manner when he isn't upset.

It might be more practical if I direct you to some literature on dating someone with autism.

What Men with Asperger Syndrome Want to Know About Women, Dating and Relationships

That might be helpful for you.

Decoding Dating

Might be helpful for him.

This is all great stuff! I love reading and downloaded some books on dating Aspies. I'll add this one to the list. I tend to give him the benefit of the doubt for most unintentionally rude comments, however, some just hurt so much that I can't help but feel emotionally 'crushed' so to speak. Like a big dump truck just comes around and dumps all this emotional garbage on me. Ouf it is heavy and some of that stuff is sharp, it hurts!!! The driver (my Aspie) is mostly unaware he is even unloading on top of me! Sometimes though I have no idea if he is really unaware or he is, I hate to see this, pretending to be unaware . I don't want to think thay but I sometimes do.

The efficiency thing sounds like him to a tee. He is all about efficiency, therefore my aesthetic arguments never seem to work! The problem is, he already seems himself as a master in efficiency and so any suggestions I make...well he already knows the most efficient thing for him. I would like to use more logical and efficiency based arguments so he can understand better (you know translating to Aspergerese).
Neutral way yes. When BOTH him and I aren't upset. I have been doing that more and more. It's hit and miss. Sometimes I am imperfect and make mistakes though and will cry and not carefully chose my words. It's hard to constantly translate into another language (Aspergerese) that I haven't fully learned yet...which I probably can never fully learn. Thank you again for your input!

 

[Devany]

Just like NT's, who come in all sorts of emotional baggage and also how different sexes respond etc, aspies are the same.

Personally if you want to be respected, then you ought to say good bye to this relationship, because the man is being cruel and manipulative toward's you.

I have a ritual when I wash up and often my husband will appear with a cup in his hand and I can feel myself burning with anger and seeing the cup as a deep offensive to me! I hate how my husband seems to loom it in front of me and do react by saying: yes but I have done the cups and on the next stage now and he comes out with: you and your flipping rituals! I then said: well if you grab a tea cloth and dry some up, then I can wash it and so that is what happened.

The part about the laundry; seems more a male thing, rather than an aspie ie he can't be bothered or he thinks that is your role to put it in the laundry, unless he has specified that somehow it makes him ill to put it in the laundry, but to actually just ignore you when you specifically say things to him, is just plain nasty on his part.

The bit about hitting back when you admit how bad you feel, is a guy who does not want to be bothered to listen and adapt.

Aspies can adapt in many ways. When my husband asks me to lower my voice, yes it does frustrate me, but I do lower it, because it was brought to my notice. It embarrasses me, but I would not shout abuse at him.

Thank you for sharing the anecdotes. I am extremely appreciative that I get a glimpse into the experience of living with Aspergers. @Suzanne part of me recognizing what you are saying about getting respect and that things wont change and part of me still believes it can change because I do observe some micro changes. Since I have underlined that swearing is an inefficient way of getting me to listen and try what he suggests, he has essentially eliminated those swear words from his vocabulary (i.e. shut up, f--k off, etc...) and those incidents were few (perhaps 4-5 times). Yelling part still gets me...but it may be that I am also very sensitive to any slight tonal changes. Perhaps I also give meaning to the changes in tone of voice that are not truly there (we NTs do that quite often...we usually have a WHOLE background to certain words, facial expressions, tones of voice that we use to interpret what others mean that is usually not the logical literal meaning ... hence the hurt feelings for some things that seem so innocuous). I have learned to be explicit : I have a hard time listening to what you are saying when you raise your voice because it makes me stressed out. He will say usually : a) i didnt raise my voice or b) I dont get what stressed out is. If its b) stressed is when the hormones in my body start sending signals of danger, like oh **** there's a bear! My heart races, my head hurts, i start sweating and my attention is narrowed. He responds 'I still dont get it'. 'What can I do to hekp you understand? Is there a way I can explain it in your terms?' He says 'I dont know' [me getting frustrated] *sigh*...he says, "why are you sighing?" "Its frustrating because I want to help you understand." He says, "you're angry at me." I say, "No, I am frustrated at the situation." He says " you're angered" basically over and over until I do get angry....thats a typical interaction between us. I told him that perhaps seeing someone and getting an official diagnosis might help the situation. He asked how? (He agrees that the Aspie description fits ) I say "you can understand yourself better and it might improve your social relationships" He says, " I dont have a self" or "theyll just tell me im bad."

Anyways, I have digressed again, but your responses are so rich that I want to respond with the same richness and as I mentioned, I like analyzing and trying to understand situstions. Thank you for your input!

 

[Fridgemagnetman]

Well I blame the bear.....

One complaint to my wife (I try to make everything into a joke)

She'll say something to me if she asks me to do something.

I'll respond ' that's two things' then I'll ramble on about if for a while but do the things....

So it's a reference back to the original thing 'two things'

I bought a t-shirt with 'off the clock' written on it so she would stop asking me stuff if I wear it. But I digress..

You've subtly given him two things to think about above...
Hard time listening and stressed out, two things.
In flight or fight mode, two things can be too much.
If you're in a panic (secretly a lot of the time) you can't process anything new at those times.
How can he be in a panic when you've said something so innocuous?
He shouted then you said I have a hard time listening....
In the example what you said before this... could be the most important bit, if you can represent this.
For me consciousness is a bit like a monster always chasing after me, too complicated,painful awful so I focus intently on certain things that gives me a kind of reverie.
(Unfortunately for me, not very productive things)

So it's what you said that he responded with 'the shout' and you missed out, may be important here.As you're studying the subject.. there may be relevance.
I do the shouts response too. Have learnt to do it in a mostly jokey way, but that's me.

There are many traps along the way for you both.... but any relationship communication is tough, at least it's less likely hell be lying to you...
And studying psychology don't turn him into a subject.. there's nothing wrong with him as such. He's just suffered perhaps from the tyranny of the majority.
Imagine it the other way round, as I'm sure you have.
Thanks for posting has made me tnink... I have so e similarities

 

[Ocarina]

Hello

The thing that worries me here is that he's treating you in a way (at times) that leaves you doubting your own sanity... years down the line these behaviours could really spell trouble. Yes there are reasons for this - and perhaps he can't help it but that's no reason not to be concerned for yourself and your own emotional wellbeing.

Someone posted helpfully on my own recent topic a remark about putting your own gasmask on first and I'd second that.

It doesn't matter why or who the behaviour is coming from but the kind of rudeness is verging on the unacceptable in any relationship and ASD is no excuse. The fact that the majority of the time he is charming and loving is almost more alarming because it allows the unacceptable to become normalised within the context of "he can't help it" He's stressed" etc How does your boyfriend respond after the event - its he apologetic? Does he perceive there's a problem here?

It's wonderful to learn to understand why this is happening - but it's important (from experience) not to twist yourself into a pretzel to accommodate anyone and not to allow behaviour that you're not genuinely comfortable with, whatever the cause - what would you say to your best friend if her bf was speaking/ acting in the ways that this guy has done to you?

 

[Ocarina]

And to add, you said he is undiagnosed - do you mean not formally diagnosed or is he unaware of his diagnosis? I think this is crucial because if he has no awareness of his condition, it makes things a whole lot harder and he may well genuinely believe that these misunderstandings are all your fault since he will find it difficult to see outside of his own reality.

 

[Miker]

I don't know if this of relevance but you mention that he puts the clothes next to the bin rather than in the bin, as if he almost completed the task. I for one have serious difficulty in completing tasks and I think that this might be an Aspie trait rather than laziness. I also leave clothes by the bin but then I am not in a relationship so I can get away with it

 

[dragonwolf]

Hello

The thing that worries me here is that he's treating you in a way (at times) that leaves you doubting your own sanity... years down the line these behaviours could really spell trouble. Yes there are reasons for this - and perhaps he can't help it but that's no reason not to be concerned for yourself and your own emotional wellbeing.

Someone posted helpfully on my own recent topic a remark about putting your own gasmask on first and I'd second that.

It doesn't matter why or who the behaviour is coming from but the kind of rudeness is verging on the unacceptable in any relationship and ASD is no excuse. The fact that the majority of the time he is charming and loving is almost more alarming because it allows the unacceptable to become normalised within the context of "he can't help it" He's stressed" etc How does your boyfriend respond after the event - its he apologetic? Does he perceive there's a problem here?

It's wonderful to learn to understand why this is happening - but it's important (from experience) not to twist yourself into a pretzel to accommodate anyone and not to allow behaviour that you're not genuinely comfortable with, whatever the cause - what would you say to your best friend if her bf was speaking/ acting in the ways that this guy has done to you?

I second this. You both need help. He needs help to see that he's treating you like ****, and you need help getting out of this situation, one way or another.

You sound exactly like me a couple of years ago and that's not good.

My husband is the NT one, but he has GAD, and he was manipulative as hell. He did almost the exact same things your boyfriend is doing, and it destroyed any self confidence I had when we first met (which wasn't a while lot, due to an abusive childhood and little more than "it's in the past, get over it" for recovery, but it was still more than what I had a couple of years ago) and made me doubt my sanity to such a degree that I felt powerless and useless.

It can be repaired, but it's a hard road, and it requires he acknowledge his role in the situation, and it may only happen with you leaving.

 

[dragonwolf]

That said, appeal to his efficiency.

It's more efficient to put the clothes in the basket than it is to leave them out, because you don't have to then pick them up when it's time to wash them.

 

[Mary Terry]

Put his dirty laundry under his pillow. He'll get the point, once and for all. I don't believe there is such a thing as repetitive "forgetting". It's a power trip and control mechanism regardless of whether he is NT or ASD. And he certainly needs a diagnosis. Good luck. NT/ASD relationships have a much higher failure (divorce) rate than NT/NT.

 

[OFelixCulpa]

You say he is undiagnosed. From what you say I wonder if the assumption that he is aspie might be incorrect. In my experience Aspies are less likely to be manipulative and passive aggressive than are NTs. Aspies can be extremely blunt (they don't mean it to hurt), not so much manipulative. To me the behaviors you have described sound more like narcissist than aspie.

So, to answer your question. No, I do not believe the behaviors you mention are due to aspie. I think there's something else going on.

 

[Chisleu]

Sounds a lot like my husband!! It is a really hard and difficult road, but as long as there's real commitment there and genuine love on both parts, I say it can work.

As for the clothes and the hamper, my hubby always leave soda cans right next to the trash can on the counter, and over the last near decade of griping, he has never put a can in the trash, so I greatly sympathize with your aggravation. I've come to learn to pick and choose my battles though and accept some things for the sake of peace, lol.

As for the defensiveness and invalidation, whenever both my husband and I hear any kind of criticism, constructive or otherwise, our knee-jerk reaction is to hear "You suck at everything you do, and this is one more to add to the list," so one day we finally sat down and had a long hard discussion, and came to realize that every single couple will always have disagreements throughout their entire lifetime. There will never be a time when the disagreements will end and the relationship will be happily ever after, so a real partnership comes down to finding out a way to discuss them healthily.

That's something I have to remind both myself and my husband of often, that the issues we bring up aren't because we're inadequate, but because it's just how life is when two free-thinking individuals share one life, and that always helps calm us.

Also, my hubby expressed to me that it's because he loves me so much and hates to see when I'm upset or unhappy that it makes him feel particularly uncomfortable, so he reacts with a fight of flight kind of response to try to escape from the difficult situation that he's not ready to process, and my feelings are collateral damage. It's one big Aspie paradox. So we set aside a time once a week like a business meeting to bring up our concerns or just go over family decisions and plans if we've been getting along well that week. That way we can have the time to think about how to word things without being ugly and, most importantly, have time to prepare ourselves for what we know may be tough subjects, and not feel blind-sided with uncomfortable topics.

But if he doesn't mind reading, maybe write down the things that concern you so the verbal expression of emotion isn't pressuring him in the moment. Then he can take the time to process the issue and come back and approach it with a better attitude once he's chewed on it a little.