Lack of empathy

[Bolletje]

@Progster the power of drugs and alcohol is that sometimes, they allow you to blend in and act like a social creature. They allow you to feel and experience things you normally wouldn’t. They allow a glimpse into “normal” life, or a spiritual world, depending on what you use and how much. Being able to fully come out of my shell for the first time was a miraculous thing, even if it was fueled by drugs. Over time, I learned that I didn’t need any drugs to do that, as I became comfortable and confident in my own skin.

I haven’t used anything for years, nor have I felt the need to, but I can definitely see the appeal and remember what it was like.

 

[ftfipps]

When you're young however you don't always think of this, you often just think of enjoying yourself now without considering future consequences, plus you always think that you won't get addicted and if you are severely depressed or missing something that drugs resolve, they give you a break even if you do have to pay it back with interest. Also when children are educated they need to be told the real truth about drugs, both good and bad, obviously the bad far outweighs the good, but I was told nothing except how bad they were and they lied because when you first take them you can have an incredible time, so you then think you've been lied to when you're young and/or inexperienced. When I got a little older I however realised, I stopped taking them and moved on.

Regarding harder drugs, well I went off the rails initially on a now banned antidepressant which made me feel invincible in a very dangerous and aggressive manner, the problem was I actually liked the feeling and it was like an addictive narcotic in itself, it gave me the confidence to do anything, I didn't have autistic anxieties any more, but I'd also have fantasy nightmares of fighting where I'd wake up punching out around me, normally I'm very placid. I truly was not myself and it's the same drug that caused a man to slaughter his entire family (he was acquitted), being on them I can honestly understand how it happened. I met a women who I later found was on heroin and crack, and I've always been attracted to "bad" women which has caused me nothing but hell (I've stayed single for 15+ years as well as being totally clean). Under the influence of the antidepressants I was hard and nasty which is what she needed and was attracted to, I even got her off the crack completely and down to minimal use of heroin by being hard, but when she slipped up I started using blackmail by using myself in front of her to make her feel guilty and get her to stop, E.g. you do it I do it, and it worked at first and she absolutely hated me doing it, until one day I woke up rattling and when I came off the antidepressants I was no longer tough and hard, then I got walked over and abused both physically and emotionally.

PS: I later found that the reason I'd been so exhausted and depressed was due to having an untreated under-active thyroid, I now don't believe in taking any antidepressants, but I definitely shouldn't have been prescribed them, let alone such a dangerous one that did that. There was numerous law suits in the USA regarding people who had been prescribed the antidepressant, a solicitor was interested in taking my case in the UK along with many others, but the case against such powerful and corrupt pharmaceuticals companies who of course have the highest paid layers to defend them unfortunately never began here.

When I was on Effexor I almost became a psychopath, Invincible as you described it. It made me feel okay with doing outlandish things and fantasizing about things like stealing and b and e. I'm not like that at all normally.

 

[ftfipps]

At one point for me, I engaged in very deliberate "learn to empathize" activities.

I would see someone do something stupid in traffic that would usually set me off, but then I would look at them and realize they have a life outside of the car. They could be worrying about a job, money, health or family problems - any number of things I don't know about. Everyone has burdens, and I shouldn't expect them to be perfect around me just because I don't know what their burdens are.

Another thing I do is observe someone's behaviors and try to "reverse engineer" their thinking. Everyone works to maximize reward (basic game theory) - once you know what reward they're seeking (money, recognition, relationship, peace, achievement, love, affirmation, etc.), you can usually see how they think that their behavior will get them that reward. NT's don't always consciously seek to maximize rewards, but they always do it.

Using this analysis, I was able to go back in my memory and get inside the heads of some school bullies that I still harbored resentment towards for years. I could see that they honestly didn't know how their actions would affect me, and that they didn't have evil intentions - they were just acting carelessly and thoughtlessly. Once I understood that, I was able to frankly forgive them and let it go.

For me, the key to both these exercises is this: If I don't have empathy for someone, then I need to learn more about them.

Yes! When you thought about the man in the other car acting rash, what his home life was like, who he was as a person, you calmed down some. Using hallucinogens occasionally reminds me of these things. And keeps me from acting foolishly.

 

[ftfipps]

@Progster the power of drugs and alcohol is that sometimes, they allow you to blend in and act like a social creature. They allow you to feel and experience things you normally wouldn’t. They allow a glimpse into “normal” life, or a spiritual world, depending on what you use and how much. Being able to fully come out of my shell for the first time was a miraculous thing, even if it was fueled by drugs. Over time, I learned that I didn’t need any drugs to do that, as I became comfortable and confident in my own skin.

I haven’t used anything for years, nor have I felt the need to, but I can definitely see the appeal and remember what it was like.

I am comfortable and confident in who I am but not In how other see me. that will change as I achieve more things in my career and personal life.

 

[ftfipps]

Interesting. I would suggest you talk to a doctor about this. Either a GP or Shrink. Someone you can trust to keep confidence. People above mentioned some of the problems associated with illegal and uncontrolled substances. No one really ends up in a good place taking that route. Perhaps there is a prescription medication that can help in a similar way.

It is something that I am going to explore further to see if my personal experiences are enriched by the certain drugs. I have talked with GPs and shrinks about different issues over the years but never about the hallucinogen issue. I will have to do this.

 

[Nervous Rex]

Not so sure.

Look at cognitive biases.
Read Daniel kahneman and Richard thaler.

I'll have to look those up. I don't claim to have any science behind my model - it's just what works for me to understand people.

Not optimum behaviour but what do people need to do to feel secure in their identities after events cause dissonance

Yes, security is one of the rewards that drive people's behaviors. They don't always seek to maximize the same reward all the time.

Also, people are far from perfect at optimizing rewards. Seeking for intimacy at a night club, financial security through dishonest means, belonging in alcoholism. Even small things - a power trip at work that leads to being fired, achieving exactly the opposite of the reward they were seeking. This isn't a chess game where we can always know the right move to make - we can't look at people and see their six-step plan for world domination. We have to ask, "What are they trying to get?" , because so often, what they actually get isn't what they were trying to get. But figuring out what their desires are helps me understand what makes them tick.

 

[Arkanu of Galatiel]

Sometimes, I feel that way. I have moments where the NT's come off as stupid and mean (I may just have bad luck, seeing and running into those kind of people), but I do have compassion for them. When I'm frustrated, I simply feel sorry that they're stupid and mean, because my emotions are clouding my judgement.

 

[Progster]

When you're young however you don't always think of this, you often just think of enjoying yourself now without considering future consequences, plus you always think that you won't get addicted and if you are severely depressed or missing something that drugs resolve, they give you a break even if you do have to pay it back with interest. Also when children are educated they need to be told the real truth about drugs, both good and bad, obviously the bad far outweighs the good, but I was told nothing except how bad they were and they lied because when you first take them you can have an incredible time, so you then think you've been lied to when you're young and/or inexperienced.

But I still don't understand, if you were aware of how bad they can be, then why take them? When I was young, I certainly did think of these things - thanks to the media and what I saw with my own eyes, I was aware of the dangers of taking them, and was also aware that people could have what they perceived to be a 'good time', but to my eyes, as an outsider looking in, all I could ever see was people doing weird and stupid things and not being in control of their mind or body, then getting health issues and mental health issues, and perhaps even killing themselves. To my mind, this isn't fun, it's just stupid; I'm not saying that the person doing it is stupid, but that it is a stupid thing to do. Certainly not cool. So I have never ever wanted to experiment with drugs, the very idea of the loss of control and what it can do is horrific. Though I do enjoy a glass of wine with my meal, I suppose that might make me a hypocrite - but being drunk and silly, I don't see the appeal of that, it is something I have experience of and it just makes me sick, no thank you, that sucks. It doesn't make me more able to socialise, because my problems with socialising are cognitive and not just due to anxiety.

I haven’t used anything for years, nor have I felt the need to, but I can definitely see the appeal and remember what it was like.

I don't see the appeal at all, I can't relate to it at all. No thanks!