Interesting treatment for severe depression.

[Au Naturel]

Not all depression can be alleviated by therapy or SSRIs.

It is interesting that the signals that caused depressive episodes originated in the amygdala. That's a part of the brain that deals primarily with instinctive behaviors like lust, fight or flight, fear, anger, etc. Often called the "reptile brain" because it is most of what a reptile has.

A biomarker was detected that proceeds the onset of depressive symptoms. It sends a small electrical signal to disrupt it. I am wondering if it might be adaptable for bipolar and other intermittent forms of psychological dysfunction. PTSD in particular.

If I suffered from crippling depression, I'd go for it.

Brain implant relieves patient’s severe depression in “landmark” US study

 

[Jordy]

I hope they can make something that helps with the core symptoms of autism in my lifetime, a device that addresses social problems is unlikely, but maybe they can make something that decreases sensory sensitivity and anxiety.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

I hope they can make something that helps with the core symptoms of autism in my lifetime, a device that addresses social problems is unlikely, but maybe they can make something that decreases sensory sensitivity and anxiety.

Social problems: Perhaps some of them. There is a known condition in some autistics that has to do with the communication between the hypothalamus and the posterior pituitary, and release of oxytocin and vasopressin. These hormones are, in part, responsible for initiating social interaction, as well as, interpersonal bonding. A deep brain stimulator could actually help in this situation.

Anxiety: Is by definition, a type of fear, and the fear center is the amygdala,...the stimulator presented in the article could also help with that.

Sensory sensitivities: Perhaps, if they could be specifically identified in the brain.

I am thinking if you were to have some functional MRI studies, specific areas could be identified,...and a deep brain stimulator implanted. However, you may have to pick one, as I am thinking a multi-function device would require quite the surgery and programming. Could be possible though.

 

[Jordy]

Social problems: Perhaps some of them. There is a known condition in some autistics that has to do with the communication between the hypothalamus and the posterior pituitary, and release of oxytocin and vasopressin. These hormones are, in part, responsible for initiating social interaction, as well as, interpersonal bonding. A deep brain stimulator could actually help in this situation.

Anxiety: Is by definition, a type of fear, and the fear center is the amygdala,...the stimulator presented in the article could also help with that.

Sensory sensitivities: Perhaps, if they could be specifically identified in the brain.

I am thinking if you were to have some functional MRI studies, specific areas could be identified,...and a deep brain stimulator implanted. However, you may have to pick one, as I am thinking a multi-function device would require quite the surgery and programming. Could be possible though.

Talking about decades from now, would be cool to have something like that working when i am 40. I would fill my entire brain with devices if it would make me function properly.

 

[dragonfire42]

Hmm. It says that it responds to “neural activity associated with irrational thoughts” (that trigger depression), and a large part of why my depression is so tenacious and untouched by any kind of therapy is that at the core, it isn’t irrational, my mind fixates on the truth embedded in it all and uses logic and evidence to reach depressing conclusions, that no therapist has been able to logically invalidate. But then, my social anxiety is based on irrational thoughts I still can’t talk myself out of, because my mind fixates on the small percent of chance that those thoughts are right. So for me personally (which is all I can reasonably speak accurately for), it seems like it wouldn’t help my depression, but might do wonders for my social anxiety. Assuming that it’s entirely to do with the irrational thoughts and not the specific feelings and subsequent thoughts those cause, perhaps it isn’t entirely disorder-specific, and could potentially be useful for disorders besides depression that stem in large part from irrational thoughts.

I too would leap at anything that might be beneficial, if I have reason to think it has a decent chance of being so for me specifically. I’d go as far as an entirely prosthetic brain if I had to. But especially for autism and related issues, I suspect that the root cause is not the same for everyone. So something attempting to address the cause for a particular symptom (in this case, irrational thoughts causing depressive symptoms) instead of treating the symptom itself (in this case, activating the “reward/pleasure” part of the brain to counter depression), while more effective and beneficial, would also be more specific in who it would help. So I want to understand exactly how something works before trying anything that would involve significant risk and/or large effort.

This is all assuming I’m understanding things properly, which I may well not be. My mind is not its best these days.

 

[Au Naturel]

Hmm. It says that it responds to “neural activity associated with irrational thoughts” (that trigger depression), and a large part of why my depression is so tenacious and untouched by any kind of therapy is that at the core, it isn’t irrational, my mind fixates on the truth embedded in it all and uses logic and evidence to reach depressing conclusions, that no therapist has been able to logically invalidate. But then, my social anxiety is based on irrational thoughts I still can’t talk myself out of, because my mind fixates on the small percent of chance that those thoughts are right. So for me personally (which is all I can reasonably speak accurately for), it seems like it wouldn’t help my depression, but might do wonders for my social anxiety. Assuming that it’s entirely to do with the irrational thoughts and not the specific feelings and subsequent thoughts those cause, perhaps it isn’t entirely disorder-specific, and could potentially be useful for disorders besides depression that stem in large part from irrational thoughts.

I too would leap at anything that might be beneficial, if I have reason to think it has a decent chance of being so for me specifically. I’d go as far as an entirely prosthetic brain if I had to. But especially for autism and related issues, I suspect that the root cause is not the same for everyone. So something attempting to address the cause for a particular symptom (in this case, irrational thoughts causing depressive symptoms) instead of treating the symptom itself (in this case, activating the “reward/pleasure” part of the brain to counter depression), while more effective and beneficial, would also be more specific in who it would help. So I want to understand exactly how something works before trying anything that would involve significant risk and/or large effort.

This is all assuming I’m understanding things properly, which I may well not be. My mind is not its best these days.

Certain types of depression are clearly irrational. I'm thinking bipolar depression, just without the high. Bouncing up and down from neutral to low.

In most cases of clinical depression, the removal of what the patient believes to be the cause of the depression is a temporary fix. There's a high that lasts for a while but the person sinks back into depression.

I had a friend who'd always seemed a bit depressed. Eventually, he accomplished everything he had ever wanted to do. Became a local bank VP, got a girlfriend, and later became a senior analyst for a major IT company. It left him happy for a bit and then the depression returned and he sank down to being a pai gow dealer at a local casino. Nothing he did gave him any enjoyment. Eventually, it became serious enough he wasn't able to hold any kind of job at all and he buried himself in a marijuana haze.

IMHO, this is clearly an "irrational" depression.

Depression is like looking at the world through blue-colored lenses. All the yellows are turned to grey and the reds and greens become dark and muted. Wear them long enough and you forget that this isn't how the world really looks.

 

[watersprite]

While this is super interesting research, I think I’d want my brain to learn how to change course for itself. Scientific research will, I’m optimistic, find a way forward to healing depression that doesn’t involve highly specialised & invasive procedures done by experts to patients.

 

[dragonfire42]

I didn’t mean to suggest that this wasn’t a good treatment for anyone, or that it isn’t worthwhile, or anything. I should have emphasized that it probably is actually perfect for some people. What I was trying to guess is that it perhaps would be a much more effective solution, but for a smaller number of people (and might also have other applications), and I did not mean that as a bad thing. The second part was really in relation to the side conversation. Sorry, I know wording is not my strong suit.

 

[Au Naturel]

I didn’t mean to suggest that this wasn’t a good treatment for anyone, or that it isn’t worthwhile, or anything. I should have emphasized that it probably is actually perfect for some people. What I was trying to guess is that it perhaps would be a much more effective solution, but for a smaller number of people (and might also have other applications), and I did not mean that as a bad thing. The second part was really in relation to the side conversation. Sorry, I know wording is not my strong suit.

I understand completely and I didn't mean to sound like I thought you were off base. Sometimes I don't know how my own words sound to other people.

 

[Gracey]

Certain types of depression are clearly irrational. I'm thinking bipolar depression, just without the high. Bouncing up and down from neutral to low.

In most cases of clinical depression, the removal of what the patient believes to be the cause of the depression is a temporary fix. There's a high that lasts for a while but the person sinks back into depression.

I had a friend who'd always seemed a bit depressed. Eventually, he accomplished everything he had ever wanted to do. Became a local bank VP, got a girlfriend, and later became a senior analyst for a major IT company. It left him happy for a bit and then the depression returned and he sank down to being a pai gow dealer at a local casino. Nothing he did gave him any enjoyment. Eventually, it became serious enough he wasn't able to hold any kind of job at all and he buried himself in a marijuana haze.

IMHO, this is clearly an "irrational" depression.

Depression is like looking at the world through blue-colored lenses. All the yellows are turned to grey and the reds and greens become dark and muted. Wear them long enough and you forget that this isn't how the world really looks.

In the case of depression and given the brains plasticity surely it's possible to alter perspective thus retraining the brain.
Changing habitual thought processes result in altered chemical release ?

 

[Jordy]

In the case of depression and given the brains plasticity surely it's possible to alter perspective thus retraining the brain.
Changing habitual thought processes result in altered chemical release ?

It's not that easy, the main purpose of brain plasticity is to learn and not to forget.

 

[Gracey]

It's not that easy, the main purpose of brain plasticity is to learn and not to forget.

I agree
Purely from a personal perspective;(some experience with anxiety & depression)
the more a neural pathway is used the 'stronger' (?) it becomes, to eventually make it the habitual response.

Please don't misunderstand me.
I'm not trying to invalidate or minimise an individuals experience with either depression or anxiety,
(I was too terrified to leave my own home at one point and suicidal ideation isn't lost on me)

I was looking at the mechanics of what happens separately from an individuals experience and feelings.

 

[Au Naturel]

I agree
Purely from a personal perspective;(some experience with anxiety & depression)
the more a neural pathway is used the 'stronger' (?) it becomes, to eventually make it the habitual response.

Please don't misunderstand me.
I'm not trying to invalidate or minimise an individuals experience with either depression or anxiety,
(I was too terrified to leave my own home at one point and suicidal ideation isn't lost on me)

I was looking at the mechanics of what happens separately from an individuals experience and feelings.

Absolutely! Using a pathway over and over strengthens it. Your brain starts using it instead of other pathways that might be more appropriate. It becomes a beaten path - and then a rut - in the forest. Ruts are, after all, a form of security. Other paths get overgrown and forgotten.

SSRIs help you out of your rut. Good therapy points out all the other trails you missed.

Whatever is learned can be unlearned. Unlearning can be hard and painful so most choose not to try.

 

[Gracey]

Absolutely! Using a pathway over and over strengthens it. Your brain starts using it instead of other pathways that might be more appropriate. It becomes a beaten path - and then a rut - in the forest. Ruts are, after all, a form of security. Other paths get overgrown and forgotten.

SSRIs help you out of your rut. Good therapy points out all the other trails you missed.

Whatever is learned can be unlearned. Unlearning can be hard and painful so most choose not to try.

I understand the above
(I rode that depression train for 30 odd years. Didn't know any different)

What if? ;
rather than unlearning,
we were to learn something else, something new, instead?
A different perspective, approach and way of coping in the moment.
(The wiring up of a new pathway)

I could walk out of my front door tomorrow and get blatted by raging anxiety over something unexpected happening to me (usually socially)

An old thought pattern of mine would be
'Stay inside. Bolt the doors and board up the windows. I don't want to experience that level of anxiety again. Better safe than sorry.'
OR,
I could think to myself in that moment,
'I'll survive it. I always do"
(new thought pattern)

practised enough, over time, the new thought pattern becomes my default setting.
I no longer bolt the doors, I find a way to cope in that moment & survive the anxiety instead.

 

[Jordy]

Absolutely! Using a pathway over and over strengthens it. Your brain starts using it instead of other pathways that might be more appropriate. It becomes a beaten path - and then a rut - in the forest. Ruts are, after all, a form of security. Other paths get overgrown and forgotten.

SSRIs help you out of your rut. Good therapy points out all the other trails you missed.

Whatever is learned can be unlearned. Unlearning can be hard and painful so most choose not to try.

Not everything can be completely unlearned, personality disorders are considered incurable for a reason. I think it's similar to learning to ride a bike, if you spend enough time riding one you will never forget how, doesn't matter how long you abstain from it.

And not everything is the result of a neural pathway that can be rerouted, that's a serious over simplification. We are certainly not infinitly plastic. If there is an error in your blueprint for neurons or a brain structure than there isn't really anything you can do instance.

 

[Au Naturel]

Not everything can be completely unlearned, personality disorders are considered incurable for a reason. I think it's similar to learning to ride a bike, if you spend enough time riding one you will never forget how, doesn't matter how long you abstain from it.

And not everything is the result of a neural pathway that can be rerouted, that's a serious over simplification. We are certainly not infinitly plastic. If there is an error in your blueprint for neurons or a brain structure than there isn't really anything you can do instance.

You are right that personality disorders are definitely not all learned. OCD, bipolar, autism spectrum and etc. are examples of this. You can't unlearn something if it wasn't learned to begin with. Most neurochemical disorders are the result of too much of something or not enough of something or instability in the balance of something. The only way to deal with them is to compensate with the appropriate biochemistry or possibly electrical stimulation. Our current tools are crude - hopefully to be refined over future decades - but they still help.

Learning is still important in coping with those disorders. Doesn't make them go away but it does make it easier to live with.

I don't know if anyone has ever actively tried to unlearn how to ride a bike. I'm not sure it would be possible. Unlearning isn't the same as forgetting. Unlearning is an active process.

OTOH, something like combat PTSD is unlearnable. To be "triggered" by something is a conditioned reflex. Learning to associate the "trigger" with something other than the flight or fight reflex puts an end to it. Obviously, some PTSD conditions are going to be easier to unlearn than others.

 

[Au Naturel]

I understand the above
(I rode that depression train for 30 odd years. Didn't know any different)

What if? ;
rather than unlearning,
we were to learn something else, something new, instead?
A different perspective, approach and way of coping in the moment.
(The wiring up of a new pathway)

I could walk out of my front door tomorrow and get blatted by raging anxiety over something unexpected happening to me (usually socially)

An old thought pattern of mine would be
'Stay inside. Bolt the doors and board up the windows. I don't want to experience that level of anxiety again. Better safe than sorry.'
OR,
I could think to myself in that moment,
'I'll survive it. I always do"
(new thought pattern)

practised enough, over time, the new thought pattern becomes my default setting.
I no longer bolt the doors, I find a way to cope in that moment & survive the anxiety instead.

Your definition of learning something else is similar to mine of unlearning. If we go back to the analogy of a forest trail, should you simply decide to take a different path, the new path begins to wear and the old path starts to become overgrown. It stops looking like the only route available. As the new path becomes easier to travel, it becomes the default. Especially since it is now associated with a reward and you can now see the old path was associated with pain.

Humans have an amazing ability to rationalize their current state. I am depressed/fearful/enraged because of (something I can do nothing about) therefore this emotion is perfectly rational. Well, it isn't. But you can't tell them that. They are like a person who is has lost some of their hearing. Hearing loss will NEVER be seen by them as the problem, often even after a hearing test. It will always be that everyone around them is mumbling.

You kind of need a leap of faith. I don't think that logically deciding that you've always survived before is enough motivation for most people. When I try to explain how philosophy has helped me overcome my own distrust and anger and (most of) my anxiety and to learn how to accept my limitations, they throw it back in my face as not being applicable to them. The fear/anger/distrust is so deep that they immediately respond that they "can't" think that way.

All I can do is make suggestions.

 

[Gracey]

I wasn't looking hard enough at root causes, Bipolar, OCD, PTSD etc,

more the co morbids, if I can use that phrase.
The anxiety and depression that may result from a condition such as OCD.

The OCD is bone deep, the anxiety and depression doesn't have to be. We're not helpless in that regard.

Perhaps I 've made the mistake of thinking the human brain would be capable of doing the job this new device can.

 

[Au Naturel]

I wasn't looking hard enough at root causes, Bipolar, OCD, PTSD etc,

more the co morbids, if I can use that phrase.
The anxiety and depression that may result from a condition such as OCD.

The OCD is bone deep, the anxiety and depression doesn't have to be. We're not helpless in that regard.

Perhaps I 've made the mistake of thinking the human brain would be capable of doing the job this new device can.

Well, it might just be. There are stunning examples of the voluntary control of supposedly involuntary processes. It is impractical for most of us to become a monk in a monastery for 20 years to be able to do this. We're stuck with what is practical. Because life is very short, most humans demand quick results.

If I have benefitted from philosophy it is because I've been working at it off and on for a long time. And I still have occasional irrational rumblings that need to be contained.