If you had the chance to meet Hans Asperger, would you?

[Spiller]

What made me think of such a thing? My obsession is totalitarian systems. So much so I majored in it.

Interesting.. I'm no expert, but there are many who feel the US and UK governments are totalitarian systems in disguise?
As I'm learning to become as self sufficient as possible, solar power, etc, I come across others who are also preparing for the worst.
I wonder if Werner Von Braun had traits?

 

[Judge]

I wonder if Werner Von Braun had traits?

It's a question you can find pondered on the Internet, but I don't think there's anything definitive about it. But there is a lot of discussion that he may have known more than he let on about his government's atrocities connected with rocket development.

 

[Spiller]

It's a question you can find pondered on the Internet, but I don't think there's anything definitive about it. But there is a lot of discussion that he may have known more than he let on about his government's atrocities connected with rocket development.

I might imagine he and his team didn't really have much of a choice in the matter of the application of the technology they were developing.. my reading on the early days of rocket development in the US indicates that he applied himself with gusto to the space program.. he wasn't a prisoner of war.

 

[ASD_Geek]

I'd ask him if he could get his work published in english, so the condition would be accepted earlier in the century, thereby benefitting us older Aspies.

This would've been of tremendous help. I agree.

 

[Judge]

I might imagine he and his team didn't really have much of a choice in the matter of the application of the technology they were developing.. my reading on the early days of rocket development in the US indicates that he applied himself with gusto to the space program.. he wasn't a prisoner of war.

Their options were limited given their talents- and complicity in developing the V-1 and V-2 rockets, used so indiscriminately against civilians. It didn't help that Von Braun accepted an honorary officer's commission in the SS. (He might have had more leverage had he known how the OSS/CIA was using former Nazis. Something the FBI wasn't happy about at all.)

Yes, he and his fellow scientists had good reason for working at Huntsville with a whole lot of gusto. As opposed to possibly being prosecuted at Nuremberg, or ending up under virtual house arrest at the Baikonur Cosmodrome in Kazakhstan. But then virtually the entire remaining Waffen SS attempted to move west to surrender to anyone but the Russians for good reason as well. But clearly the Russians got plenty of German talent in this field...

 

[Spiller]

It didn't help that Von Braun accepted an honorary officer's commission in the SS?

I didn't know this, though I'd think, if one knew the possible consequences, one would be unwise to say "Thanks, but no thanks". Fear based authority gains power by making its subjects complicit.
There does tend to be that teeny irk of totalitarian regimes.. choice is an illusion, you do what you're told or die. Freedom and justice are an illusion; how many people would stand for truth when they and their families lives were at stake?
Would I? I honestly don't know.

 

[Judge]

I didn't know this, though I'd think, if one knew the possible consequences, one would be unwise to say "Thanks, but no thanks". Fear based authority gains power by making its subjects complicit.
There does tend to be that teeny irk of totalitarian regimes.. choice is an illusion, you do what you're told or die. Freedom and justice are an illusion; how many people would stand for truth when they and their families lives were at stake?
Would I? I honestly don't know.

It's a complex human equation, especially in consideration of that particular regime. Where one crosses a line of complicity versus being an unwilling or unenthusiastic participant. Or attempting to remain on the sidelines knowing something terrible is happening.

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

-Pastor Martin Niemöller

 

[Rob]

I did some research on whether Dr. Asperger had prescribed any pharmaceuticals to his specific group of autistic children but I could find no statements alluding to any prescription of psychotropic medications to them. Regarding behaviour modification I could not find any specific suggestions that he used these techniques either. Here is link to a summary of the 1944 paper translated from German, by Hans Asperger:

Asperger's 1944 article summarized

There are mountains of information on the doctor, but it seems from the information I observed researching his career, Asperger did not resort to the use of psychoactive pharmaceuticals, CBT, or any other behaviour modification techniques.

It seems that Hans Asperger's main focus was to protect the autistic children from Nazi eugenics programs to kill or sterilize those who appeared "inferior" to the Nazi image of a "superman" or "wunderkind" as you might envision. Adolf Hitler wanted a "master race" and those who he considered "inferior" were marked men, women and children. Asperger seemed focused on the children's unique traits, social and behavior difficulties, and their unique talents. Asperger lived in a very difficult time in history, and to protect these children he went to many lengths to keep them alive and not victimized by the Nazi eugenics agenda. It seemed he focused on describing in great detail these autistic children, and what he could do to help them. He worked with others like Lorna Wing, a British psychologist who soon named the condition after the Austrian himself.

Anyway, this is what I could gather in such an intense, short time of internet research on Asperger's career as a pediatrician.

Thanks to Aaron Agassi for the informative article.

 

[Aaron Agassi]

Where does Hans Asperger specifically appeal to neurology rather than psychology?

 

[Rob]

Where does Hans Asperger specifically appeal to neurology rather than psychology?

From the book by Tony Attwood, The Complete Guide to Asperger's Syndrome (2008), page 13 we read at the bottom,

"Asperger considered that the characteristics could be identified in some children as young as two to three years, although for other children, the characteristics only became conspicuous some years later. He also noticed that some of the parents, especially the fathers of such children, appeared to share some of the personality characteristics of their child. He wrote that the condition was probably due to genetic or neurological , rather than psychological or environmental, factors. In his initial and subsequent publications, it is apparent that he considered that autistic personality disorder as part of a natural continuum of abilities that merges into the normal range (Asperger 1944, 1952, 1979; Hippler and Klicpera 2004)..."

It would take some time to search through the full paper but I think you have to purchase the English translation of the pediatrician's paper for a good $65-$70. I trust Tony Attwood's professional judgment completely here.

 

[ExplosiveTMT]

Nah... because of my shyness around others!
Kidding.
Probably.

 

[Aaron Agassi]

From the book by Tony Attwood, The Complete Guide to Asperger's Syndrome (2008), page 13 we read at the bottom,

"Asperger considered that the characteristics could be identified in some children as young as two to three years, although for other children, the characteristics only became conspicuous some years later. He also noticed that some of the parents, especially the fathers of such children, appeared to share some of the personality characteristics of their child. He wrote that the condition was probably due to genetic or neurological , rather than psychological or environmental, factors. In his initial and subsequent publications, it is apparent that he considered that autistic personality disorder as part of a natural continuum of abilities that merges into the normal range (Asperger 1944, 1952, 1979; Hippler and Klicpera 2004)..."

It would take some time to search through the full paper but I think you have to purchase the English translation of the pediatrician's paper for a good $65-$70. I trust Tony Attwood's professional judgment completely here.

Thanks.

Understanding of the scope of Epigenetics and neuroplasticity, has advanced significantly. There is even the case of identical twins, one autistic and the other not. Even so, underrating the psychodynamic impact of environment and experience, still seems sheer suborn failure of imagination.

 

[Judge]

It seems that Hans Asperger's main focus was to protect the autistic children from Nazi eugenics programs to kill or sterilize those who appeared "inferior" to the Nazi image of a "superman" or "wunderkind" as you might envision.

Perhaps. However had he presented his research at an earlier time one can only wonder what his government would have done whether against his wishes or not.

One thing for sure, his political indoctrination would have likely been sufficient for him to comprehend the threats posed to his research subjects. Of course some of his contemporaries like Dr. Rascher and Dr. Mengele had no such concerns. But then their pool of research subjects involved "non-Aryans".

The whole question just makes me uncomfortable at the least.

 

[Rob]

Thanks.

Understanding of the scope of Epigenetics and neuroplasticity, has advanced significantly. There is even the case of identical twins, one autistic and the other not. Even so, underrating the psychodynamic impact of environment and experience, still seems sheer suborn failure of imagination.

True, Aaron. I saw a special episode of a W-5 TV program on how a ten-day (or so) trip to a dolphin sanctuary in Bonaire or Aruba (a Caribbean paradise island in the Netherlands Antilles) was helpful for a very cute autistic girl and her parents. My eyes filled with tearful anticipation! (W-5 is an investigative documentary).

The parents of the girl found out about a dolphin-therapy program for autistic children. However, many psychologists and psychiatrists saw this expensive program as a fraud or scam. This seems to me a prime example of prejudice against psychodynamic-type programs, such as this one.

However, as the girl progressed she became much more expressive and emotionally open toward not only her parents but other people too. The Dutch instructor at the dolphin sanctuary seemed to know a lot about how to reach autistic children with patient, persistent, tender entreaties to the child. This helped to make the child less sensitive to certain stimuli like texture and colour, as well as temperature.
The girl still had a lot of challenges at the end of the program but she made a HUGE improvement through interaction with dolphins in a specially designed, large enclosure. The instructor, his assistant, and the girl's parents were all in the pool with the friendly dolphins. I believe the memories of this trip were imprinted on the girl's memory to make her feel that she is not an outsider, but welcome to the world. Not every child has the privilege to interact with intelligent dolphins!

Whether this worked in the long run I cannot tell. However, the parents seemed very well pleased at the results. I saw the joy in their faces and their comments seemed that they were pleased. In the short run this seemed like a good investment but, as usual, the question will always be, "What about the rest of her life? Will she still make progress, or will she regress back into her previous ways?"

I cannot remember her name or the family involved. I believe more information can be found on the internet on CTV network's W-5 program. Anyone can do a search on this story but right now I am exhausted from having to deal with a very sick father and a disabled mother.

This is what I got from the program.

 

[Aaron Agassi]

Thanks, I might add dolphin encounters to the ignored Psychodynamics cited in 'The Behaviorist Menace', though I do recall, also, claims of a case where the movie 'Dirty Dancing' effected dramatic cure for an Autistic little girl who apparently really liked the film.

 

[Spiller]

True, Aaron. I saw a special episode of a W-5 TV program on how a ten-day (or so) trip to a dolphin sanctuary in Bonaire or Aruba (a Caribbean paradise island in the Netherlands Antilles) was helpful for a very cute autistic girl and her parents. My eyes filled with tearful anticipation! (W-5 is an investigative documentary).

The parents of the girl found out about a dolphin-therapy program for autistic children. However, many psychologists and psychiatrists saw this expensive program as a fraud or scam. This seems to me a prime example of prejudice against psychodynamic-type programs, such as this one.

However, as the girl progressed she became much more expressive and emotionally open toward not only her parents but other people too. The Dutch instructor at the dolphin sanctuary seemed to know a lot about how to reach autistic children with patient, persistent, tender entreaties to the child. This helped to make the child less sensitive to certain stimuli like texture and colour, as well as temperature.
The girl still had a lot of challenges at the end of the program but she made a HUGE improvement through interaction with dolphins in a specially designed, large enclosure. The instructor, his assistant, and the girl's parents were all in the pool with the friendly dolphins. I believe the memories of this trip were imprinted on the girl's memory to make her feel that she is not an outsider, but welcome to the world. Not every child has the privilege to interact with intelligent dolphins!

Whether this worked in the long run I cannot tell. However, the parents seemed very well pleased at the results. I saw the joy in their faces and their comments seemed that they were pleased. In the short run this seemed like a good investment but, as usual, the question will always be, "What about the rest of her life? Will she still make progress, or will she regress back into her previous ways?"

I cannot remember her name or the family involved. I believe more information can be found on the internet on CTV network's W-5 program. Anyone can do a search on this story but right now I am exhausted from having to deal with a very sick father and a disabled mother.

This is what I got from the program.

I saw this program some time ago and it's part of the reason I believe that Autistics only struggle in society, according to the Triad of Impairments, because it's society that thinks and acts in rigid fashion; the rigid thinking and behavior of autistics is as observed by NT's, but may, in fact, be a defence against a confusing world.
I see this more plainly with people with AS/HFA, simply because we can communicate our thoughts and feelings so much more clearly. I will, though, admit to limited experience with 'my own kind'.
I wonder.. if education, from parenting to schools to work environments, were flexible enough to encompass nontypical learning styles, would more low-functioning autistics be productive members of society?
I personally have built and run my own business for 20 years.. I've proven I'm capable of being successful and productive, yet I still struggle to learn unless instruction is clearly explained and logical.
Maybe this comes down to societies predilection toward sweeping its problems under the carpet, rather than actually dealing with them?

 

[Aaron Agassi]

It has long been observed how gifted students amongst their own true gifted peers, suddenly and mysteriously no longer require the great blessed boon of socialization! But is such the case for Aspies? No, alas it is not.

 

[Aaron Agassi]

So, this is the conversation killer?

 

[zurb]

So, this is the conversation killer?

Haha, don't take it personally. Conversations here can be like wild fires dying as quick as they start. I've sometimes felt guilty for killing a thread. But sometimes its just dropped off the radar, or folks have run out of things to say.

 

[Aaron Agassi]

Actually, my question is tremendously unpopular. As the old saying goes: "The dancer blames the floor" sometimes more justifiably than others. Which brings us to Asperger's as a condition rather than a pathology, and Aspies as the blameless innocent victims of a flawed evil and profoundly corrupt society. But is that a scientific hypothesis? And what would be the experiment with conditions of refutation?

Again: It has long been observed how gifted students amongst their own true gifted peers, suddenly and mysteriously no longer require the great blessed boon of socialization! But is such the case for Aspies? No, alas it is not. Thus, it appears that there is a detriment inherent to Asperger's, and not just the social problem of bullying which is, after all, the abuse and exploitation of the disorganized by the well organized. Bullies are as thick as thieves, but Aspies cannot or will not organized even with one another, unlike, for example, the manic depressives who have such clout! Giftedness offers clues to an improved paradigm of social integration. Asperger's apparently does not. Disappointing, as I had entertained interest in and hopes for what has been called: Aspie candor. But I have yet to witness much of that personally, but more often quite the opposite: denial and hypersensitivity.

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