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I see a trend- NTs and non NTs

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My own darling heart (husband) will ask me if he's not sure what planet I'm on in any given moment.
He's been doing that for thirty years, beg pardon and for the sake of clarity, 'almost' thirty years.

He won't read books or watch Ted talks or even ask others about ASD. He asks me because it's me he's trying to understand ...being a spectrum an all.

I may have the same label but be different to Ambi above for example,
(Sorry Ambi, just using you to illustrate a point) :)

Or indeed any of the good ladies on this site. As much the same as we are different. (Spectrum)
Struggling to fathom how one size fits all really ?
 
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My own darling heart (husband) will ask me if he's not sure what planet I'm on in any given moment.
He's been doing that for thirty years, beg pardon and for the sake of clarity, 'almost' thirty years.

He won't read books or watch Ted talks or even ask others about ASD. He asks me because it's me he's trying to understand ...being a spectrum an all.

I may have the same label but be different to Ambi above for example,
(Sorry Ambi, just using you to illustrate a point) :)

Or indeed any of the good ladies on this site. As much the same as we are different. (Spectrum)
Struggling to fathom how one size fits all really ?
I love that you used me as an example - this is exactly what I'm talking about :)
 
Scuba diver - fish. great analogy. The same environments... the same Activity. One needs equipment to get by un noticed. But is blatantly different. I love it.
If my NT husband were to come here to ask the ASD women something in order to try to understand MY brain better, all he would come away with would be a false illusion as to how I am "really" working inside. At minimum, please just confirm with your significant other to see if it does match up to his experience. It's not that there aren't shared experiences, there really are - but there are also a lot of differences in experience.

There is a book I read that explained this really well (at least it's the perception that of that ASD author) - NTs tend to have a filter through which they view the world and people and social situations. They perceive people through those filters. It helps them make sense of things. By seeking data here about your ASD partner, you are in effect creating another filter to attempt to fit him through/understand him. Maybe NTs must do this, maybe it is the only way they can interact with their significant other. I feel like I have to zip on a human suit before I can interact with people, like a scuba diver among fish, so maybe the NT equivalent is the filter. Then again, let's take this example of generalizations: I'm sure there are NTs who wouldn't relate to the filter idea, and I'm sure their are ASD folks who may not relate to the scuba-diving among fish idea. So the trends are useful in understanding populations, but when trying to understand a specific individual, that data may not prove accurate or useful.. Yes, I think maybe it is my anal sensibilities about data and specificity that make it hard for me to ignore that possibility for inaccuracy.

Btw, the people I really get annoyed about are the ones asking about their ex-boyfriends who don't have a diagnosis - they are just grasping at straws. I think people who are in actual present-day relationships with people who are actually on the spectrum (whether officially diagnosed or self-diagnosed) can actually get useful info here. :) I do think there are different kinds of things to seek out, too. Like, if you are trying to understand sensory overload, basic stuff like that - yes, you can see helpful replies, and see if anything seems to match up with what you observe in your significant other. There are a bunch of books I've read and videos I've watched by others with ASD that helped me understand myself - but I myself was there to confirm it, of course. My husband wouldn't have had as much luck figuring out what applied and what didn't - he would have had to ask me.

BUT.....the whole "my boyfriend left me and I don't know why? What should I do? How can I win him back?" is what really annoys me, because we aren't some kind of bank vault with some specific code to unlock - that situation is very individual, and may have nothing to do with his ASD (if he even has it). It's not like "do this and this and that, and win back your Aspie lover!". It's just so wrong-headed to begin with. You can't even do that with your pets, even animals are more individual than that. I have at least as much personality and individuality as my pets :) That is what is being ignored by those posts...
 
So sad to read this. It sounds like you are very unhappy and that your wife is using you. I'm a big advocate for divorce. It's not easy to go through, but life is too short to remain in an unhappy marriage. :-(

I couldn't agree more....
I'm in the process of trying to end (through divorce) my 25 year marriage.... I have three kids and a big family but I am on my own...
No one in my family had any idea that the marriage was coming to an end as you just soldier on thinking that it's ok and that you can do this....
Let me tell you you can't!! Not fir ever... as something with just go... and you can't take it anymore...
But as hellish and crushing as it's been I would NEVER go back to what it was ..( like to pretend it hadn't happened) as I'm so much happier now... the stress and anxiety I was under was so insidious that you don't realise how pervasive it it into your life until it goes.....
Please think about this...
You only get one life...
you owe it to yourself to be happy... and that's starts with putting yourself first... it's not selfish....
It's self preservation.....!!
Good luck....
 
I would like to say that maybe NT Women dating/married to a man on the spectrum, actually come onto this forum, not to try and change then, but to try and understand them further and adapt their own behaviour, to move forward in a positive fashion.

I am not problem orientated, but solution driven. Therefore when I first ventured onto this forum, it was with the intent of trying to gain insight into the possible why's and wherefore of certain behaviours, so I, not him, could then tack a little left or right and then possible dovetail into his needs.

I found the detailed replies to my post, not only insightful and eye opening, but gave me a deeper understanding of how HIS brain functioned, so I could then adapt mine, as knew it was always going to have to be mine that altered.
So to concur, the NT Women come here to try to find a way to make that relationship work better for both of them. Or they would not even bother and walk away.
Sorry if we annoy some of You, but if we were your girlfriend/wife, would you not be touched that we were doing all we were capable of to enhance the relationship?

BTW this is a 2 way street, so any questions you would like to ask an NT Women on why we do the things we do..feel free to ask!
This is exactly what I meant too.... very well put...!! Thanks @Flygirl ...!
 
Here is the answer, short and sweet. We live in a patriarch. Males are allowed more room and more freedom and more understanding when it comes to being a human whereas women are given a very limited and unrealistic feminine ideal to force themselves into. Most men, living in a society that caters to them, want a woman to do exactly the same. If she so much as puts a toe past the suffocating confines of her role he will merely move on, too lazy, too spoiled, and too self serving to handle the prospect of being with a human and not the carbon copy of the male fantasy and expectation.

This role I mentioned above is for the woman to fulfill the mans every desire. I work in a bookstore and naturally take to peeking in the books when I am supposed to be working. Every dating/relationship and life guide pertaining to men refer to women in the most objectifying, and dehumanizing way while teaching them to lie their way into a woman's pants. In short, men are taught how to get what they want, and women are taught to sacrifice what they want. This is the typical conditioning and perception of gender in a patriarch.

Another point is on the fact that you are right in your assumption that women hide their flaws better. There is a talk that Tony Attwood gives on autism in females you should check out. He discusses that boys are encouraged to be loud and aggressive while women are always being forced into the role of emotional nurturer or caretaker, leaving no room to express pain of their own for the fact of having to constantly wear a false mask of niceness and quietness.

The reason why men do not show up on here wishing to learn more about any autistic females they meet is because of how girls and boys are conditioned to behave from early ages. It goes to the roots of the nature of our society and how it works to survive because the way we condition boys and girls is integral to mating and sexual reproduction.

Women and anything traditionally feminine is seen as inherently weaker to its male counterpart. As a result women are forced to don a male distorted role of the feminine role as doormat and caretaker while simultaneously condemning their own true femininity, assimilating into male characteristics in order to be accepted. Women are conditioned to please, not be pleased, to find out everything she can about what a man wants in order to try and win his love, to accept his flaws and even take his aggression or violence for affection.

The hyper masculinity syndrome within patriarchal societies is needless to say, toxic to both women and men. That didn't turn out to be a short answer after all, but the answer is that the behavior pattern you speak of is merely the product of typical male and female conditioning within the patriarch.
 
I always like to see myself as an alien observing and taking part in society, so when I say these things it is from years of observation. Another prime example if you were put off or dissatisfied with the truth of my earlier response is a thread I came upon on this website. Possibly one of the few males to pop up on here with concerns regarding an autistic female . For the entirety of his post he complained about all of her quirks, begging anyone to help him find help to possibly "fix" her. It was clearly such a tragedy in his eyes that she wasn't the doe eyed bushy tailed nubile vixen he wanted her to be and i mean this more metaphorically than physically in that she had strange behavior to him. He could not conceive of having to go the extra mile to reach her, of the prospect of love and relationships being hard work. All he could do was throw a fit that she wasn't reaching him and pleasing him. And here lays the basic pattern for a very common behavior among men; complaining about what a woman does or does not do for them. His response is typical of a male conditioned by the patriarch, and this only serves to prove the main points of my observations delineated in the first response.
 
Here is the answer, short and sweet. We live in a patriarch. Males are allowed more room and more freedom and more understanding when it comes to being a human whereas women are given a very limited and unrealistic feminine ideal to force themselves into. Most men, living in a society that caters to them, want a woman to do exactly the same. If she so much as puts a toe past the suffocating confines of her role he will merely move on, too lazy, too spoiled, and too self serving to handle the prospect of being with a human and not the carbon copy of the male fantasy and expectation.

This role I mentioned above is for the woman to fulfill the mans every desire. I work in a bookstore and naturally take to peeking in the books when I am supposed to be working. Every dating/relationship and life guide pertaining to men refer to women in the most objectifying, and dehumanizing way while teaching them to lie their way into a woman's pants. In short, men are taught how to get what they want, and women are taught to sacrifice what they want. This is the typical conditioning and perception of gender in a patriarch.

Another point is on the fact that you are right in your assumption that women hide their flaws better. There is a talk that Tony Attwood gives on autism in females you should check out. He discusses that boys are encouraged to be loud and aggressive while women are always being forced into the role of emotional nurturer or caretaker, leaving no room to express pain of their own for the fact of having to constantly wear a false mask of niceness and quietness.

The reason why men do not show up on here wishing to learn more about any autistic females they meet is because of how girls and boys are conditioned to behave from early ages. It goes to the roots of the nature of our society and how it works to survive because the way we condition boys and girls is integral to mating and sexual reproduction.

Women and anything traditionally feminine is seen as inherently weaker to its male counterpart. As a result women are forced to don a male distorted role of the feminine role as doormat and caretaker while simultaneously condemning their own true femininity, assimilating into male characteristics in order to be accepted. Women are conditioned to please, not be pleased, to find out everything she can about what a man wants in order to try and win his love, to accept his flaws and even take his aggression or violence for affection.

The hyper masculinity syndrome within patriarchal societies is needless to say, toxic to both women and men. That didn't turn out to be a short answer after all, but the answer is that the behavior pattern you speak of is merely the product of typical male and female conditioning within the patriarch.

Welcome to the group Robotica. Whereas I agree with certain things you said, and I will point those out after we go shopping, I will have a more balanced reply, as you make it sound like everything in this society favors men and problems are just caused by men, and that is far from the truth. I see both men and women having it tough in society, and both contributing equally to the problems in society. I see just as many men as givers in this society, and not takers, and the same regarding women. I feel both genders are responsible for the good in this nation, and the bad. Both have it good and bad in society. For specifics to your post, that I agree with, and for my opposing positions, I will reply back later. Thanks.
 
@Robotica do you see this as an American societal problem, or worldwide?

I grew up in England, and now live in Australia and while both societies could be considered sexist in some way, I've certainly not seen the conditioning you talk of.

I guess if I consider main stream media from the US, there is a focus on dominant males with subservient females, Disney being a prime example.

Uk and Australian media less so I think.

I was raised with equality around me, and that's how I raise my kids.
 
@Full Steam Living in America this is what I and many others have observed here. It is a pretty well known fact that we live in a patriarch. America still struggles with both racism and sexism. It is deep seeded and conditioned, anyone with an iota of intelligence knows this. To answer your question I know of many cultures worldwide in which the mistreatment of women is far more obvious and severe. Surely there are societies with more equality out there. Somewhere. But that was neither the focus nor the point of my response.If you are meaning to say that you doubt the existence of what I speak of because you yourself have not seen or experienced it in your personal life then I have nothing more to add except that the world looks flat but we know it to indeed be round.
 
@Robotica,

Is this society still more male oriented? Yes, men are still in more powerful positions, but things are certainly not as bad as the fifties and sixties, as we have more women getting into
male dominated professions, like business and government, and with more women working now than ever before. We have far more women centered organizations than male, to help a little to make up for other disparities, which is great as well. Pay is becoming more equal, and women are being seen in better light than ever before, and with more opportunities, and less need to look or act a certain way. Yes, we need more laws to advance any minority, but laws to protect majorities that are pushed down, too.

And so yes, women still are not seen as equals, in many many ways, and there are double standards like whereby men are allowed to sleep around and it is often seen as cool, whereas women are seen in a worse light for doing that, and with more blaming of women in court for sexual abuses against them, and women may be harassed and seen as very weird for working in heavy labor jobs or certain sports, to name a few. There still are double standards against men though too, in the court system regarding custody where it is unfairly assumed the woman is more nurturing and less abusive. That is not always the case. Also, I see more focus on abuses against women than against men. I feel the quantity of abuses are equal against each gender. Society hides this and minimizes this, and men report it less.

I feel you were off the mark when you said men are allowed more freedom and understanding. Women these days can wear dresses, pants, have short hair, long, be allowed to be nice or mean, be strong or weak, have makeup or not, get a job or stay home, be in certain professional male dominated professions, and be lesbian and be looked at better in society than a man who stayed home, had long hair, wore dresses, was mean, weak, had makeup, exposed certain parts of themselves, and if they were in any women profession or were gay. Guys would be bashed for most of that, as it is seen as weakness, immoral or weird, whereas it would at minimum be tolerated for women for those things I said, if not seen as cool and more modern thinking.

This does not mean I think women have it easier in life, as I do not necessarily feel that is true, and as I would not want to be one as it can be tougher to excel because of sexism, but for other things I do think guys are worse off, and have less rights. But, I balance that with guys have perks, too. They often have less expenses to fit in, and can be more respected by doing less, and have often less fears. But, I do not think women have it harder, as like they have more victim support groups, can genetically express better to get support, and are allowed to express certain feelings and look different with less critique. As well, I feel many women are choosing to look and act certain feminine ways largely because of the way their mothers or media teaches this, not because men are forcing this. Women have a right to dress more formally, or rebel against any sexism by not flaunting or encouraging it. As well, some mothers do condition their sons with the 'boys will be boys' mentality, and 'Big boys don't cry.' And so, it is women that sometimes need to take some responsibility there too, just like if they abuse children and men, too. That shapes boys and mens' attitudes, and how they treat others too, just like father's can shape perceptions with what they do and do not do.

I think perversion in society is coming from both genders. Women are exposing more of themselves, and this seems to be taking a step backward, despite their advances. Men are wanting it more and doing more sexual abuses, though more women teachers are resorting to that abuse now. So, who knows what is hidden at home. Men are the advertised sexual abusers, and violent physical abusers, and that is horrible, and stereotyped as needy of sex, too, and seemingly wanting brains and heart less than beauty. I wish men and women would show more morality and maturity. Who is to say what caused what first though. I just know both are obsessed with certain things, and both are advancing to improper actions to get their needs fulfilled. I see the advancement of women as good, as men can start doing things they prefer or are better at instead. Maybe men will see women as more professional, stronger, or not as one dimensional then. And men maybe then can be seen as more nurturing, if their personality is better to take on more traditional women's roles.

As things are now, it would be hard to say men have more needs than women, and I feel women likely get just as many needs fulfilled then men. Neither gender should be seen as victims there, as again, I feel this society still at least slightly favors males. However, if some women are having a tougher time in society, perhaps they need to look within and demand less, or change their focus to think for themselves, instead of letting society define them. Men need to stick up for their rights and be stronger though too. I feel if each gender is starting to become more equal in terms of level of strength, opportunities and assertiveness, each gender should be allowed the approximate number of needs and desires fulfilled.

So, in general, although I realize men still get most of their power and confidence through physical strength and their careers, and through the beauty of their mate, most women seem to get their power through their sexuality, and through their support systems, communications and family. Things are becoming more equal though, and if anything, in some cases I see women's outrage too much at men, as sometimes as soon as a guy talks of men's issues, rights and abilities, or any critique at women, if justified, these women go way too far to squash that talk, and blame the man. That is not a good way to show strength, intelligence, fairness and compassion, sorry.
Certain men though need to get rid of their 'I am Tarzan, you Jane attitude. You do as I say.' That is not strength but weakness.

With equal women advancing themselves in education, and a very large percentage working outside of the home and marrying later in life, you would think less men would be bashed, but if anything, the reverse is true, as more women are wanting it all, even if this means taking the guys heart and soul. So, with all due respect, the answer is not short and sweet as you say. I had to resort to generalizing, too, to give an opposing side which I feel is fair.. They are our differing opinions based on our genetics and positive or negative experiences in life. I just know I have had tons of experiences, and I always try to look at both points of view.

For any men and women out there that treat the other side horribly, and cannot see the good in the opposing gender, I feel sorry for you. But, for any man or woman that fears speaking the real truth, as they fear backlash, I feel bad for those persons as well, as that shows weakness to me. Both men and women have great and not-so-pleasant qualities. Neither is better I feel. I would strongly argue against anyone who said that was not true. I wish we all could be seen as equal, without needing to push down the other, or be one step above the other. In my reply, I tried to show the good, neutral and not so good of both. As that is reality, not fiction.

I do agree that women are often taught to please, but men have to please women in ways, too, like they often have to be an emotionally and physically strong provider and protector. So, to suggest women then are not pleased in many ways is misleading. They get often that monetary security, and physical protection, and daily answers from a male perspective to resolve things, when resolvement is needed. Granted, many guys cannot give a women everything, like in terms of an emotional connection, but in life we cannot get everything from a spouse. That is where others jump in.

i give props though to Robotica for not fearing expressing openly her views about men. That shows women have come a lot farther than you think.
 
@Dadwith2Autisticsons
Spare me.
As I stated before, hyper masculinity is toxic to both women and men. In reality, I responded to the observed behavior pattern in question, not making it seem like men are only evil and do bad things, but pointing out the imbalance in behavior conditioning that lead to the imbalance behavior pattern observed. The impression you got from my response was to have your feelings be hurt, because being a man, you instantly felt targeted as soon as I began to speak the truth about how a patriarchal society functions. This can only lead me to conclude that your defensive response arises from a sense of guilt, which subsequently leads me to conclude that somewhere deep inside you know what I speak of is true, and you know it is wrong. I am merely pointing out concrete examples of behavior exhibited by humans and where it arises from, if it seems to you to make men look bad then it's not me you should be addressing, as I surely am not responsible for the birth of the patriarch. Thank you so much for the refresher lecture but I am indeed aware that on an individual level humans are very complex, and that both men and women do "bad" things.

We all know that men and women have an equal capacity for good and evil but the reality is that inequality often proliferates societies usually in the form of sexism, racism, or both. If my response seemed one sided its because the society in question is one sided. What I am talking about, and what you are trying to detract from out of a sense of indignation that you feel personally attacked, is the very nature of this inequality and how it manifests itself in even the smallest of things, how it creates patterns that this dear noticed, how when we notice patterns, we question them, and we follow them until we see a whole structure and then ask if this structure is beautiful, is it efficient, is it bringing us forward, back, or keeping us in stagnation. It is amazing the amount of resistance received when I so much as state a basic and widely known fact such as that some societies are patriarchal and exist, that in these societies members are conditioned certain ways to serve some sort of function and that specific behavior patterns arise from such conditioning. Wake up! Inequality exists. Yes women do bad things too. Also, B comes after A in the alphabet. I'm talking about a wide scale systemization of privilege and organized oppression that most if not all societies struggle with. I'm talking about systems affecting individual people. What I am saying, if I may dare to even think of suggesting such a thing, is that the structure I see imposing hyper masculinity on its members is destructive to both sexes. It treats women unfairly and undercuts men and their potential.
 
@Dadwith2Autisticsons
Spare me.
As I stated before, hyper masculinity is toxic to both women and men. In reality, I responded to the observed behavior pattern in question, not making it seem like men are only evil and do bad things, but pointing out the imbalance in behavior conditioning that lead to the imbalance behavior pattern observed. The impression you got from my response was to have your feelings be hurt, because being a man, you instantly felt targeted as soon as I began to speak the truth about how a patriarchal society functions. This can only lead me to conclude that your defensive response arises from a sense of guilt, which subsequently leads me to conclude that somewhere deep inside you know what I speak of is true, and you know it is wrong. I am merely pointing out concrete examples of behavior exhibited by humans and where it arises from, if it seems to you to make men look bad then it's not me you should be addressing, as I surely am not responsible for the birth of the patriarch. Thank you so much for the refresher lecture but I am indeed aware that on an individual level humans are very complex, and that both men and women do "bad" things.

We all know that men and women have an equal capacity for good and evil but the reality is that inequality often proliferates societies usually in the form of sexism, racism, or both. If my response seemed one sided its because the society in question is one sided. What I am talking about, and what you are trying to detract from out of a sense of indignation that you feel personally attacked, is the very nature of this inequality and how it manifests itself in even the smallest of things, how it creates patterns that this dear noticed, how when we notice patterns, we question them, and we follow them until we see a whole structure and then ask if this structure is beautiful, is it efficient, is it bringing us forward, back, or keeping us in stagnation. It is amazing the amount of resistance received when I so much as state a basic and widely known fact such as that some societies are patriarchal and exist, that in these societies members are conditioned certain ways to serve some sort of function and that specific behavior patterns arise from such conditioning. Wake up! Inequality exists. Yes women do bad things too. Also, B comes after A in the alphabet. I'm talking about a wide scale systemization of privilege and organized oppression that most if not all societies struggle with. I'm talking about systems affecting individual people. What I am saying, if I may dare to even think of suggesting such a thing, is that the structure I see imposing hyper masculinity on its members is destructive to both sexes. It treats women unfairly and undercuts men and their potential.

In general, my reply was balanced and fair. Yours was not. You resorted to criticisms and intense emotion, and fiction. Reminds me of something, but I am too classy to say. Have a good day bashing men. I will stick to replying to other men and women that can express without venom.
 
How did this discussion turn into this??? Reminds me of the arguments I used to see on Facebook.

If men expect their girlfriends to be properly "feminine" then there should be more NT men on here with questions. Seems like there is a rather high rate of "gender non-conformity" among aspie women so very few of us would be living up to a man's expectations. Yet, still fewer men asking than women.

A great number of women have showed up on this forum not wanting to change to "please" their man but to change him.

Sure there are women who are taught to please a man(I've met them)and men who think women are virtually worthless (met a few of those, too), but our society is far too complex to rely on broad generalizations, particularly when discussing ASD. NDs/Aspies/Autistics are just obviously not going to fit into Sociologists ideas of how society works. I certainly don't fit. My NT bf doesn't even fit their model.
 
I would like to nominate all 6 pages (so far) of this thread for "Best Drama", because gosh, it is the gift that keeps on giving.
Remember when it was a simple observation: "NT women with male ASD partners ask for more help than NT men with female ASD partners"?

Although I have to say that the gendered preconceptions in a patriarchal society are a valid element of explanation for why NT women would ask for more help than NT men, since many NTs seem to be somewhat more affected in their thinking by societal expectations.
 
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