I haven't a clue.

[NothingToSeeHere]

Well whaddaya know. I had a few extra minutes and my curiousity got the best of me, but strangely I could only find research with some loose quotes to the contrary. As I don't have access to anything other than the abstracts on those sites, it wasn't worth linking to anyway. If you are going to say "research" then you need to produce actual links to solid papers. Tons of studies done are done incorrectly or with incorrect conclusions. At this point, you have a personal anecdote of not even a consistent experience, but a personal anecdote of a research paper that may or may not exist and that may or may not have been correctly executed. You cannot magically invoke the "There's a research paper somewhere on the internet that proves what I say" to get an instant correct.

Good for you, I'm sure they were a fascinating few minutes True that the professional thing to do would be to provide citations... but I'm not at work, so I am taking great relish in not doing so. Oh the joys of being an anonymous asshole on the internet.

Cberg - long hair is fine, just keep it tidy and wash it. As someone who really notices hair I have observed that men with long hair tend to not take as good care of it as women. Don't be one of those men, long greasy hair is disgusting, and a ponytail doesn't hide it as much as you might think it does.

 

[NothingToSeeHere]

I did tell my friends with tracksuits that we level up if we all get matching tracksuits.

I just had a flash back to my high school... matching tracksuits were all the rage there. Especially white ones.

Thank goodness I was a goth.

 

[Autistamatic]

Some of this thread has amused me no end

There is no end of variation of what men and women find attractive in one another or in their own gender.
Since you seem to be a heterosexual guy, think about what you physically like in a woman and how that compares with other men.
Do you like long or short hair?
Blonde or brunette?
Light skin or dark skin?
Big chest or small chest?
Big butt or small butt?
Tall or short?
Skinny, athletic or bigger?
Smartly dressed or casual?
Fashionable or practical look?
The tastes of any woman you might want to attract are going to be just as diverse as yours, and not everyone is particularly specific. There is no one look, or type that attracts everyone, whichever your gender or sexual orientation. The one thing that most people agree on is that clean and well groomed generally is good, but not for everyone (there's plenty of greasers out there in relationships).
The best advice I think anyone can give is to dress as well as you can afford, but in a way that feels comfortable to you. Plenty of women are turned off by expensive clothes as much as there are those who find it attractive. Work on your conversation skills and go to places where you might meet like minded people.
I've been in many failed relationships and ONE that continues to succeed. She sees me most of the time in Marvel or Star Wars themed pyjama pants and old t-shirts, but we love eachother, not for how attractive we look when we get dressed up, but for the conversations we have, the kindness between us, and the support we give eachother when needed.
Looks/appearance may get you over the initial hurdles, but there's no guarantee that the women who like your look will have the personality, the tenderness or the strength to be a good partner for you.
I wish you the best.

 

[cberg]

I'm not really into the ponytail either, my friends imposed some of those upon me & I thought there was a parasite eating my brain.

 

[cberg]

I just had a flash back to my high school... matching tracksuits were all the rage there. Especially white ones.

Thank goodness I was a goth.

I guess I sort of was too. I have this sticker on one of my laptops & I gave my friends a few.

 

[cberg]

And lots of women find glasses extremely attractive.

How might I take note of this in the future?

 

[cberg]

Some of this thread has amused me no end

There is no end of variation of what men and women find attractive in one another or in their own gender.
Since you seem to be a heterosexual guy, think about what you physically like in a woman and how that compares with other men.

The best advice I think anyone can give is to dress as well as you can afford, but in a way that feels comfortable to you. Plenty of women are turned off by expensive clothes as much as there are those who find it attractive. Work on your conversation skills and go to places where you might meet like minded people.
I've been in many failed relationships and ONE that continues to succeed. She sees me most of the time in Marvel or Star Wars themed pyjama pants and old t-shirts, but we love eachother, not for how attractive we look when we get dressed up, but for the conversations we have, the kindness between us, and the support we give each other when needed.
Looks/appearance may get you over the initial hurdles, but there's no guarantee that the women who like your look will have the personality, the tenderness or the strength to be a good partner for you.
I wish you the best.

Thanks! I think this might do a lot to make me more personable. I'm scarcely looking at all to meet anyone new, I'm not even sure how I could do so before finding more common ground among women who already know me. It just feels like I spend so much time around technology that at some point I can't go back to people.

It also makes sense why someone special would need extensive breaks from me & I from her. I'm simply wracking my brain for good ways to remain open to dialogues & new perspectives on my extreme shyness as it affects myself & others. I know I take too much time with these things so for lack of any clearer terms I'm trying to give some of it back.

 

[cberg]

I'm not telling him to go out and spend $2000 on a single set of clothes, as buying expensive clothes without knowing exactly what you want is extremely foolish, but don't tell me "Women don't look at that stuff" when it's quite obvious that they do. And no, not just teenagers.

I'll spend a decent bit I'm sure, but mostly for outdoorsy/fitness type clothes, which I can wear to work anyway. I tend to keep it relatively monochromatic but that doesn't prevent me from throwing on whatever and jumping in my car. I need more dark colors.

 

[Bella Pines]

I'm just here grasping at straws for better ways to make women more comfortable around my obnoxiously preoccupied brain. Ultimately I just want to show some kind ladies that the realm of hacking is not just for guys, but I need to become more agreeable to make any progress.

Oh how I wish I met you 20 years ago. I had a mis-spent youth fishing for bits and perls in cli pirate coves. Not so much now, I now watch people code and mostly write emails.

But you are on to something. I mentor young women in technology and they are out there, brilliant, untrained and struggling to break into the field. The problem is that society trains them to dislike coding. So I really think we are due for a paradigm shift where men are allowed to have emotions and women can be more than a clothes horse or project manager. But it's difficult to break out of the mold because we are all conditioned to it.

Can you do something like open a free code training course for women or would that be super creepy and get you arrested?! What are people coding in nowadays? Java, c++ still? Python seems to be fashionable. Can you run an online course and advertise on a "women do coding" or women trying to break into technology site?

As potentially creepy as it is, I think it's a great idea because it will bring some balance to an otherwise skewed industry. Any group with too many men, too many women, too many NTs (which is the world...) is always a skewed and biased.

So I don't think you are doing anything wrong, I think it's just hard to find them.

 

[paloftoon]

The few women I do know seem to appreciate me from a distance if at all & I don't blame them. Only one even technically knows my identity & I took eight years to tell her. I'm literally made of baggage, not the least of which being that I don't even know if I have an extra chromosome. On top of that my past is an absolute mess & I'm a coder. One of those coders. Neckbeard level 1337. Geekier than nearly everyone you've ever met put together. At least I'm decently fit but broad autism phenotype sure doesn't help with that.

I am literally made of postmodern red flags. If I were a car I'd be a Chinese limousine. If the industrial chemicals which predetermined my physiology weren't enough I get plenty of plastic fumes from gadgets.

People find me interesting & presumably, way too intense. I'm just here grasping at straws for better ways to make women more comfortable around my obnoxiously preoccupied brain. Ultimately I just want to show some kind ladies that the realm of hacking is not just for guys, but I need to become more agreeable to make any progress.

Your identity issue is a big deal. You are being way too paranoid . In life, you have to take risks. 8 years? That's a turn off. Everyone has baggage but if you let it affect you to the point that you don't present yourself well to others, you are not ready to look for a committed relationship.

Since you know you are full of red flags, that is something you need to work on. Maybe a red flag here or there you can be and even possibly fix as no one is perfect, but too many is too many, and that's totally on you.

Coders are hot to some people including myself. Looks can matter, but are very subjective to the eye of the beholder.

As for including females into coding, maybe you should start a group off of meetup.com that is called something like female coders Alliance, and then run events through that and try to meet people that way whether for friendship or possibly more. Remember, build and let things flow as naturally as possible. Try not to force too much.

Good luck.

 

[cberg]

Oh how I wish I met you 20 years ago. I had a mis-spent youth fishing for bits and perls in cli pirate coves. Not so much now, I now watch people code and mostly write emails.

But you are on to something. I mentor young women in technology and they are out there, brilliant, untrained and struggling to break into the field. The problem is that society trains them to dislike coding. So I really think we are due for a paradigm shift where men are allowed to have emotions and women can be more than a clothes horse or project manager. But it's difficult to break out of the mold because we are all conditioned to it.

Can you do something like open a free code training course for women or would that be super creepy and get you arrested?! What are people coding in nowadays? Java, c++ still? Python seems to be fashionable. Can you run an online course and advertise on a "women do coding" or women trying to break into technology site?

As potentially creepy as it is, I think it's a great idea because it will bring some balance to an otherwise skewed industry. Any group with too many men, too many women, too many NTs (which is the world...) is always a skewed and biased.

So I don't think you are doing anything wrong, I think it's just hard to find them.

I'm mostly just looking to make everyone more comfortable around the level of seriousness around tech in my own life. Obviously it's better for such programs to be led by women, I'm just caught up wishing they weren't alienated from my favorite subject in square one. More than just teaching code I'm interested in teaching all my friends the basic theory & allowing room for everyone to coherently respond to my geekiness in their own ways.

 

[cberg]

Good luck.

I understand that's a turn off; I've been into technology so much that it's been at the expense of my entire social life. Nevertheless that puts me in a position of influence over the many impending technical questions I'll be seeing in the future & I want to arrive at more humanizing answers. This thread is not about becoming a totally different person - that's a forgone conclusion - it's about helping the women I know reconcile my life with their own enough to remain in contact with me. Also I should clarify I am not into guys.

 

[Bella Pines]

Is scratch too much? Scratch - Imagine, Program, Share. Can you make scratch for adults? Something more serious. Like the concept of scratch... but with something that adults would want to do. Like making a youtube video or collating photos. Something that would sneakily give people the appreciation of coding without the detail and difficulty. This will give people an appreciation of coding.

However. Reconciling your life with people enough to remain in contact is very different that giving people an appreciation of coding. These are two distinct topics with little cross over. Firstly, unless they are interested, they won't want to learn. You can try to explain aspects of your life until you are blue in the face, but unless there is some interest there, it will fall on deaf ears. You've probably experienced this. Secondly, even if you succeeded and sparked interest, that would be interested in technology, not in you personally.

If it's just about keeping women in your life, then giving them an appreciation of coding is not going to achieve that. Instead you must go to them. Not the other way round. You must learn to appreciate what they are interested in and make an active effort. If they are not interested in coding, and few women are due to social conditioning, then there's really not much you will be able to do to change that. So rather than try to get them to come to you, work out what they are interested in and go to them, does that make sense?

 

[cberg]

[edit] I think code block editors are great! Thing is, as many of you suggested, I'm not thinking of subjecting anyone to more work than simple thought experiments about tech. I'm trying to be user-friendly even though I live, eat, sleep & breathe CAD &/or server-side code.

Well beyond just the code I want to get everyone's real questions answered. Interest is one thing but I think I'm playing into innate curiosity more than any obsessive interest like my own. You're right, I need to contextualize this on female terms even though I'm a dude. More than teaching everyone to push pixels I want to help us 'unpack' the nonsense that's separating all of us with internet access from each others' personal realities.

tl;dr I want to cure everyone's Facebook addictions & help the few girls who know me learn about the (often harsh) realities of technology without overwhelming anyone. It's an imperative & a quest of sorts. I don't need everyone to read Java or shell script like a natural, I just need to get them comfortable asking me about these things to keep us in a friendlier cycle of give & take.

 

[cberg]

On another note - there's an awful lot of social conditioning flying around that I'd like to help us all start disregarding.

 

[paloftoon]

I understand that's a turn off; I've been into technology so much that it's been at the expense of my entire social life. Nevertheless that puts me in a position of influence over the many impending technical questions I'll be seeing in the future & I want to arrive at more humanizing answers. This thread is not about becoming a totally different person - that's a forgone conclusion - it's about helping the women I know reconcile my life with their own enough to remain in contact with me. Also I should clarify I am not into guys.

I wasn't under the impression you were saying that you were into guys.

It is not the "job" of women to help you reconcile your life. It is your job to reconcile your own life. In a relationship, there are two people, and both their wants, needs, and compromises need to be considered. Avoid attempting to enter a relationship based on looking for someone to help "fix you" mentality. Instead, aim for continued independence and cooperation.

 

[cberg]

I meant collectively but if you want to accuse me of abdicating personal responsibility because I feel like talking to more people than myself behind a screen go ahead.

 

[cberg]

If it's just about keeping women in your life, then giving them an appreciation of coding is not going to achieve that. Instead you must go to them. Not the other way round. You must learn to appreciate what they are interested in and make an active effort. If they are not interested in coding, and few women are due to social conditioning, then there's really not much you will be able to do to change that. So rather than try to get them to come to you, work out what they are interested in and go to them, does that make sense?

I'd say this means art, psychology & design in my case. I'm smiling like an idiot right now because I guess I just realized that all we're really missing is a friendly means of knowledge & skill(s) exchange. We kind of already have that but I should reiterate, that doesn't mean the internet, I can't communicate with my real-life friends online for the most part; I am NOT on Facebook. When I instant message or even text, it's usually encrypted.

 

[Bella Pines]

I'm smiling like an idiot right now because I guess I just realized that all we're really missing is a friendly means of knowledge & skill(s) exchange

Yes! Communication, keep thinking along these lines...! To facilitate communication, and figure out how to get the other person interested in any exchange, really try to understand the other person. Imagine being them, what are they interested in, what crossovers are there, is there anything technical that can help them further their interests? Technology underpins everything, there must be some middle ground.

 

[cberg]

Truthfully it's all connected where tech is concerned but big companies (Apple, Google, Microsoft, Amazon, Facebook etc.) are heavily invested in convincing everyone that there is no art or science within technological disciplines. Branding excercises obscure the really beautiful parts of this & replace them with shiny interfaces. Product design in web services is entirely psychological but everyone's already sold on those as a result. Free services just mean users = products.

I should consider building a personal site with a ticket system that lets anyone ask me questions. There's no discussing the humanities within the internet without some very simple interfaces to facilitate that.