I don't know what to do anymore.

[the_tortoise]

what i'm a broken record on, is that, for the past couple years now or more, it truly seems like, guys, men, on the autism spectrum, have a high rate of becoming 30 plus virgins or never having dated, or don't get into their first relationship until 30 plus and older

Yes I know.

While it's true that autistic people generally, regardless of gender -- that we all face more social isolation and ostracization in many spheres of life....

I'm saying that your impression of reality for autistic males doesn't necessarily match actual reality...

You take what may be a valid statistical trend based on your perceptions alone (btw if you have actual research to back it up, please share - to my knowledge there isn't enough research to say if such a trend actually exists) and just assume it's a fact of existence for all autistic men....when it may not be.

And even if the trend you perceive is actually valid and real, that doesn't automatically predict the lived reality for any given individual....

Do you know about confirmation bias?
https://www.britannica.com/science/confirmation-bias

Or availability bias?
Availability Heuristic: What It Is And How To Overcome It

 

[Matthias]

Maybe this is the case wherever you live, but you will not find any women like that anywhere remotely near tge Bible Belt. I have only met a grand total of one single woman in my age group in the past five years. Everywhere I go, every woman I meet is married.

Have you searched for women with special needs? I think women who are autistic, disabled, mentally ill, or handicapped are more likely to be single or divorced and more open to dating a middle aged autistic man with childish interests. These might be the only women you'll find who are willing to date you. If you get rid of the children's toys and spend time pursuing more age-appropriate adult activities or go on vacations so you'll have something interesting to talk about, the number of women interested in dating you will probably increase.

 

[Hypnalis]

what i'm a broken record on, is that, for the past couple years now or more, it truly seems like, guys, men, on the autism spectrum, have a high rate of becoming 30 plus virgins or never having dated, or don't get into their first relationship until 30 plus and older

This is (probably) true. But it's hardly surprising.

Even ASD1 men "lose" 10 to 20 "hotness points" just from being ASD. This takes us all below the "reasonable zone" (the top 10%), and far away from the "easy zone" (say top 2%).
Meanwhile XX's are settling down much later than in the past, with "triggers" at 30ish and 35ish. But "settling" to settle down is resource/status biased relative to the 18 to 29 behavior patterns that are particularly difficult for ASDs.

There's no "fix" for this of course. At this particular point in time, the environment is quite hostile even for neurotypical XYs.
But I think we'd all be better off if we were realistic about the situation we're in.

Oddly there's one newish environment that is, or pretends to be, more accepting of ASD.
If I hadn't "aged out", and dating was more important to me than personal integrity (it's not), I'd dye my hair violet and try my luck.

 

[Steelbookcollector217]

This is (probably) true. But it's hardly surprising.

Even ASD1 men "lose" 10 to 20 "hotness points" just from being ASD. This takes us all below the "reasonable zone" (the top 10%), and far away from the "easy zone" (say top 2%).
Meanwhile XX's are settling down much later than in the past, with "triggers" at 30ish and 35ish. But "settling" to settle down is resource/status biased relative to the 18 to 29 behavior patterns that are particularly difficult for ASDs.

There's no "fix" for this of course. At this particular point in time, the environment is quite hostile even for neurotypical XYs.
But I think we'd all be better off if we were realistic about the situation we're in.

Oddly there's one newish environment that is, or pretends to be, more accepting of ASD.
If I hadn't "aged out", and dating was more important to me than personal integrity (it's not), I'd dye my hair violet and try my luck.

yeah, its just what comes with natures territory, what makes it more depressing and resentful, is that, nature and reality even causes lots of guys, men, to remain a virgin later than normal or remain chronically alone, single, even when you first look at them or notice them, they appear to be regular normal looking guys, you think they would have not problem getting women or getting a woman in their lives.

 

[Hypnalis]

yeah, its just what comes with natures territory, what makes it more depressing and resentful, is that, nature and reality even causes lots of guys, men, to remain a virgin later than normal or remain chronically alone, single, even when you first look at them or notice them, they appear to be regular normal looking guys, you think they would have not problem getting women or getting a woman in their lives.

Assumptions about looks and behavior have to be considered in the light of the XX's in your current local dating market.

An only slightly exaggerated perspective:
80% of XX's pretend they're a "10", genuinely believe they're an "8+", and believe they can "lock down" an XY who combines all of the "best" features of all the XY's they've ever "dated".

And XX's on aggregate believe that 80% of all men are unattractive. This is obviously irrational and unsustainable, but "it is what it is".

Clearly in such an environment dating is going to be objectively very difficult for the majority of ASD XY's.

There is no easy fix for this.
"Fairness" doesn't apply in the mating game - it never has, but at the moment it's thoughtcrime to even think that way.
Some well-known advice for such situations (a partial quote):
Accept with serenity the things that cannot be changed.
:
:
NOTE: A necessary reminder based on earlier experiences in AF:
The fact that dating is more difficult for ASD XX's than for NT XX"s has no bearing whatsoever on the truth of the ASD XY dating situation.
Whataboutism - Wikipedia
Similarly, low-probability exceptions (e.g. single/small-group anecdotes) do not void a "human-domain" heuristic.

 

[lunarious]

@Anime Hair I can't help you, or: We can't help you.

I'm not allowed to call me self We, as Royal Gard. People reject me as Royalty. So I/We/we can't help you even if i myself could.

But i'm similar to your situation. Following Law is good. I myself am open for "arranged marriage" through my mom. Arranged not Forced. (edit) and dad.

There's a saying that goes like: "A prince (or Royalty) goes from the han of The Queen to another Queen."

 

[Matthias]

Assumptions about looks and behavior have to be considered in the light of the XX's in your current local dating market.

An only slightly exaggerated perspective:
80% of XX's pretend they're a "10", genuinely believe they're an "8+", and believe they can "lock down" an XY who combines all of the "best" features of all the XY's they've ever "dated".

And XX's on aggregate believe that 80% of all men are unattractive. This is obviously irrational and unsustainable, but "it is what it is".

Clearly in such an environment dating is going to be objectively very difficult for the majority of ASD XY's.

If this were really true, most women would be single. Is that the case where you live?

What I tend to see is men who think they're 5+ but are actually 2 or 3 only pursuing women who are 7+ or higher and then blaming women for not being able to get a date. Even when confronted with reality, they still tell themselves they're involuntarily celebrate and blame women instead of pursuing women with a similar desirability as themselves.

There is no easy fix for this.
"Fairness" doesn't apply in the mating game - it never has, but at the moment it's thoughtcrime to even think that way.
Some well-known advice for such situations (a partial quote):
Accept with serenity the things that cannot be changed.
:
:
NOTE: A necessary reminder based on earlier experiences in AF:
The fact that dating is more difficult for ASD XX's than for NT XX"s has no bearing whatsoever on the truth of the ASD XY dating situation.
Whataboutism - Wikipedia
Similarly, low-probability exceptions (e.g. single/small-group anecdotes) do not void a "human-domain" heuristic.

There is an easy fix. Lower your expectations. Don't pursue the most desirable women when you don't have much to offer. If autistic traits are perceived as less desirable, you just have to look for women who also have traits or other characteristics (heavier, less attractive, personality/character flaws, disabilities, etc.) perceived as less desirable. With an even distribution of males and females, there is someone for everyone.

 

[lunarious]

If this were really true, most women would be single. Is that the case where you live?

What I tend to see is men who think they're 5+ but are actually 2 or 3 only pursuing women who are 7+ or higher and then blaming women for their lack of success getting a date. It would explain why most people I hear complaining about not getting a date are men.

The eye is desceptive

There is an easy fix. Lower your expectations. Don't pursue the most desirable women when you don't have much to offer. If autistic traits are perceived as less desirable, you just have to look for women who also have traits or other characteristics (heavier, less attractive, personality/character flaws, disabilities, etc.) perceived as less desirable. With an even distribution of males and females, there is someone for everyone.

Right. But ASD is not inferior. I'd be Honored to marry a good wife ugly or not. Good wife taking into consideration; the eye is desceptive.

 

[Anime Hair]

what i'm a broken record on, is that, for the past couple years now or more, it truly seems like, guys, men, on the autism spectrum, have a high rate of becoming 30 plus virgins or never having dated, or don't get into their first relationship until 30 plus and older

I'm 40 plus and never had a girlfriend.

 

[lunarious]

Never?

Note: Lyric is often not best

 

[Anime Hair]

Have you searched for women with special needs? I think women who are autistic, disabled, mentally ill, or handicapped are more likely to be single or divorced and more open to dating a middle aged autistic man with childish interests. These might be the only women you'll find who are willing to date you. If you get rid of the children's toys and spend time pursuing more age-appropriate adult activities or go on vacations so you'll have something interesting to talk about, the number of women interested in dating you will probably increase.

When I was in college, I met a woman with cerebral palsy who pursued me. Even though she was ugly, I settled because I had no other prospects. What followed was two years of being gaslighted, socially isolated, devalued, and conditioned. As it turns out, the whole reason she pursued me in the first place was that my autism made me particularly vulnerable to abuse and manipulation.

Around 2020, I started a new a new job as a paraprofessional at a high school. I met a lady who was maybe 12 or 13 years younger than me. She was playful and sometimes flirtatious, but I believe she was having an affair with another coworker. Some time later, she started expressing interest in me in more direct ways. We started talking, and there was clearly mutual attraction, but it never really led anywhere. She went back in forth between acting interested in me and being on again off again with her child's father, whom she was financially dependant on. It was clear that she was just not ready to be serious. Eventually, I moved on to another job and we fell out of contact. She struggled with her mental health and was obviously neurodiverse. At my age, I'll never get a shot with someone like her again.

I actually prefer neurodiverse women, as I rarely find neurotypicals intellectually engaging or interesting enough. But, as we all, neurodivergeant women do not face the same dating challenges neurodiverse men; which means I rarely meet ND women who aren't taken, and still have to compete with NT men even when I do.

And now, my age itself is an obstacle; and that impossible to change.

 

[lunarious]

@Anime Hair but don't call ladies ugly?

 

[Anime Hair]

@Anime Hair but don't call ladies ugly?

And that's your takeaway? This is a special case where I don't have any problem using that word because this is a hateful, narcissistic, manipulative, and abusive individual. But at the same time, I found her unattractive before I knew any of that and it had never even crossed my mind to think of her as a potential partner until she aggressively pursued me. But the point I was getting at is that even when I settled for the ugly woman she abused me.

 

[Hypnalis]

If this were really true, most women would be single. Is that the case where you live?

That doesn't follow from anything in my post.

There's a lot to unwrap there, but one perspective:
* Some XYs have easy access to physical intimacy, most do not.
* Most XX's have easy access to physical intimacy, some do not.
(where "most" is 60-75%, and "some" is the remainder, both depending on your definition of "easy access")

What I tend to see is men who think they're 5+ but are actually 2 or 3 only pursuing women who are 7+ or higher and then blaming women for not being able to get a date. Even when confronted with reality, they still tell themselves they're involuntarily celebrate and blame women instead of pursuing women with a similar desirability as themselves.

I've never seen any data that suggested this describes enough cases to be relevant.
And FWIW "involuntarily celibate" is one of those concepts that no longer has any meaning due to "over-weaponization". Ditto the idea that a large proportion of men "blame women" for their dating failures.

I know those are common claims - I see them often myself. But this is an area that has been studied properly, and the facts don't match the common narrative.

There is an easy fix. Lower your expectations. Don't pursue the most desirable women when you don't have much to offer. If autistic traits are perceived as less desirable, you just have to look for women who .<.. are...> perceived as less desirable.

< edited to simplify the message>

In principle I agree with your text.
It's worth noting that it's the usual advice for XY's by XY's: i.e. to improve themselves economically, physically, and socially, and to keep (approximately) to your level.

It's not an easy fix though.
Far from it: it's very difficult to do any of those things. And everyone gets the same advice, so it's competitive.
:
This isn't currently working as you'd expect at first glance:

With an even distribution of males and females, there is someone for everyone.

It's more or less true for a monogamous society. But I doubt that many AF participants live in such a society.

And it's not necessary. Population is limited by the number of XX's, not by the number of XY's
At the moment society seems to be perfectly happy with 30% of XY's being completely excluded from the dating game. But the minimum number is well under 70%.

Some kind of change will occur OFC.
The only question is whether "Western Society" collapses completely or the culture stabilizes on something that keeps everything running and gets the birth rate back up to sustainable levels.

 

[Matthias]

When I was in college, I met a woman with cerebral palsy who pursued me. Even though she was ugly, I settled because I had no other prospects. What followed was two years of being gaslighted, socially isolated, devalued, and conditioned. As it turns out, the whole reason she pursued me in the first place was that my autism made me particularly vulnerable to abuse and manipulation.

Around 2020, I started a new a new job as a paraprofessional at a high school. I met a lady who was maybe 12 or 13 years younger than me. She was playful and sometimes flirtatious, but I believe she was having an affair with another coworker. Some time later, she started expressing interest in me in more direct ways. We started talking, and there was clearly mutual attraction, but it never really led anywhere. She went back in forth between acting interested in me and being on again off again with her child's father, whom she was financially dependant on. It was clear that she was just not ready to be serious. Eventually, I moved on to another job and we fell out of contact. She struggled with her mental health and was obviously neurodiverse. At my age, I'll never get a shot with someone like her again.

I actually prefer neurodiverse women, as I rarely find neurotypicals intellectually engaging or interesting enough. But, as we all, neurodivergeant women do not face the same dating challenges neurodiverse men; which means I rarely meet ND women who aren't taken, and still have to compete with NT men even when I do.

And now, my age itself is an obstacle; and that impossible to change.

Sorry to hear about what happened. That's harsh. I usually hear about autistic men being manipulated financially by women who pretend to be interested so they can keep asking and taking their money.

It's good that you're open to dating a variety of women. Maybe try getting a dating coach or seeing a female counselor your age for advice?

 

[Anime Hair]

Sorry to hear about what happened. That's harsh. I usually hear about autistic men being manipulated financially by women who pretend to be interested so they can keep asking and taking their money.

It's good that you're open to dating a variety of women. Maybe try getting a dating coach or seeing a female counselor your age for advice?

Not so much any more. Getting burned that badly by someone I felt I was stteling for made me pickiest.

 

[Matthias]

That doesn't follow from anything in my post.

There's a lot to unwrap there, but one perspective:
* Some XYs have easy access to physical intimacy, most do not.
* Most XX's have easy access to physical intimacy, some do not.
(where "most" is 60-75%, and "some" is the remainder, both depending on your definition of "easy access")


I've never seen any data that suggested this describes enough cases to be relevant.
And FWIW "involuntarily celibate" is one of those concepts that no longer has any meaning due to "over-weaponization". Ditto the idea that a large proportion of men "blame women" for their dating failures.

I know those are common claims - I see them often myself. But this is an area that has been studied properly, and the facts don't match the common narrative.


< edited to simplify the message>

In principle I agree with your text.
It's worth noting that it's the usual advice for XY's by XY's: i.e. to improve themselves economically, physically, and socially, and to keep (approximately) to your level.

It's not an easy fix though.
Far from it: it's very difficult to do any of those things. And everyone gets the same advice, so it's competitive.
:
This isn't currently working as you'd expect at first glance:

It's more or less true for a monogamous society. But I doubt that many AF participants live in such a society.

And it's not necessary. Population is limited by the number of XX's, not by the number of XY's
At the moment society seems to be perfectly happy with 30% of XY's being completely excluded from the dating game. But the minimum number is well under 70%.

Some kind of change will occur OFC.
The only question is whether "Western Society" collapses completely or the culture stabilizes on something that keeps everything running and gets the birth rate back up to sustainable levels.

I found your post hard to follow due to you using terms (XX and XY) that no one uses where I live. I don't like having to translate those terms into men and women every time I come across them.

If women really found 80% of men unattractive, they'd often be chasing the top 20% of men, leaving most of them single.

I don't know about studies but the vast majority of accounts I've read and heard from men who couldn't get a date had unrealistically high standards given how little they had to offer. You say studies don't support what I've read and heard but you didn't explain what those studies found about why a small percentage of men can't find a date. The fact that you say it's hard for men to improve themselves economically, physically, and socially (which I agree - most things worth doing require hard work, which many people today aren't interested in doing) tells me that men who struggle to find a date have below average desirability. They wouldn't have to improve themselves if they pursued women who also have below average desirability like themselves because these women would be interested due to not being able to attract more desirable men.

 

[Hypnalis]

I found your post hard to follow due to you using terms (XX and XY) that no one uses where I live. I don't like having to translate those terms into men and women every time I come across them.

XX and XY refer to chromosomes. Using them resolves some ambiguities that can otherwise cause inaccurate communication. OFC I don't mind if you don't use them yourself.

If women really found 80% of men unattractive, they'd often be chasing the top 20% of men, leaving most of them single

XX's on dating apps "share" the most attractive XY's. Which turns the top XY's into narcissists, and is probably a major contributing factor to the "all men are bad" and "where are all the good men" tropes /lol.

The rest of your post seems to be keyed to the idea that in practice there's an XX available for every XY, presumably because the numbers are approximately equal. That's not the case.
The fact that 80% of XY's are considered unattractive is a solid indication that XY/XX dating isn't symmetrical.
Another is that XY's don't think that way: XY's on aggregate consider 80% of XX's attractive enough for a hookup.

But there are many other RL indications of this.
The easiest to remember: "XX's control access to physical intimacy, XY's control access to long-term relationships".

(It's best to treat that as being more valid in the 21st century, but it's been true in some contexts for much longer).

 

[Anime Hair]

Back around 2011, I was splitting rent with a gay couple. They had a European friend that visited often. She was very direct and made a number of passes at me, but I froze up and didn't know what to do. She asked me if I like to have a lot of sex at a party, and it went right over my head. Next I saw her, she said her ex is coming over and asked me to help make jealous. I had it all right in the Palms of my hands: a gorgeous European woman that was making it as obvious to me as she could that she wanted to have sex with me. And even after I screwed up, she kept coming back and giving more chances. And despite all this, I still managed to self-sabotage myself into the ground. What the hell was wrong with me?!

Of course, this was all 15 years, when I was much younger. Now that I'm over 40, I never get that kind of attention from women. I missed out when I was young and now I can never get it back.

 

[Steelbookcollector217]

Assumptions about looks and behavior have to be considered in the light of the XX's in your current local dating market.

An only slightly exaggerated perspective:
80% of XX's pretend they're a "10", genuinely believe they're an "8+", and believe they can "lock down" an XY who combines all of the "best" features of all the XY's they've ever "dated".

And XX's on aggregate believe that 80% of all men are unattractive. This is obviously irrational and unsustainable, but "it is what it is".

Clearly in such an environment dating is going to be objectively very difficult for the majority of ASD XY's.

There is no easy fix for this.
"Fairness" doesn't apply in the mating game - it never has, but at the moment it's thoughtcrime to even think that way.
Some well-known advice for such situations (a partial quote):
Accept with serenity the things that cannot be changed.
:
:
NOTE: A necessary reminder based on earlier experiences in AF:
The fact that dating is more difficult for ASD XX's than for NT XX"s has no bearing whatsoever on the truth of the ASD XY dating situation.
Whataboutism - Wikipedia
Similarly, low-probability exceptions (e.g. single/small-group anecdotes) do not void a "human-domain" heuristic.

well i can see somethings always being the same