How do I become more callous at work and not feel guilt?

[maleonolo]

How do I stop feeling guilt?

I often see people whose morals change to fit the group's beliefs. It's necessary to survive in the workplace. Hazing, exclusion, workplace politics, these are all essential to climb the ladder. If you asked them about their morals, they'd talk about how good they are. I know they're trying to fit in but it makes me if people feel as much empathy as they say they do, because most people don't seem to experience much guilt

Am I being naïve for believing what people preach when they act differently? Should I grow up and learn to be two-faced and immoral? I'm tired of believing all the lies people spout, trying to measure up to ideals no one actually cares about; it's like chasing a unicorn. I'm not a good person by far, but even so, I wish I could be more callous

Please help me, I need to learn to survive in the workplace. I can't go on like this anymore. I want to stop being so weak and I'm tired of the 'just be yourself' lies. I need to learn to haze and gossip and not feel guilty. 99% of the working world revolves around people and networking, I can't keep being so pathetic, so naïve. I know there's no such thing as a human connection because it's just a game of social hierarchy and dominance

 

[maleonolo]

Also if anyone has tips for avoiding people and not feeling lonely that'd be great

 

[Masked Man]

What sort of work do you do? What is your workplace like?

When you say "morals," what do you mean?

Lower skilled work will often contain workers who are lower skilled, have lesser education, and may feel like they are lower on the social/economic ladder and therefore feel like they have to prove something. These are the ones who engage in school yard dominance games.

Other places of work - my clinic for example - has people who have higher level skills and higher levels of education and pay. There is still something of a hierarchy, but generally not the school yard bullying type. It's much more calm and egalitarian.

If you're working in a place like in the first example, I'd say the best thing you could do is to recognize it for what it is, be civil to others, but engage as little as possible.

 

[Jumpinbare]

If you're working in a place like in the first example, I'd say the best thing you could do is to recognize it for what it is, be civil to others, but engage as little as possible.

This was the approach I took all my working life. I learned not to compare myself to others, because I'm too different - like comparing an apple to a Field Effect Transistor (FET). I just kept my opinions to myself and did my job. I was never "popular" (thank goodness), but when I spoke up to prevent what was to me an obvious problem, people actually were surprised and listened. At my last job, I was the most senior technician when I retired. I had outlasted even the supervisors and managers who had been with the company when I started.

 

[maleonolo]

What sort of work do you do? What is your workplace like?

When you say "morals," what do you mean?

Lower skilled work will often contain workers who are lower skilled, have lesser education, and may feel like they are lower on the social/economic ladder and therefore feel like they have to prove something. These are the ones who engage in school yard dominance games.

Other places of work - my clinic for example - has people who have higher level skills and higher levels of education and pay. There is still something of a hierarchy, but generally not the school yard bullying type. It's much more calm and egalitarian.

If you're working in a place like in the first example, I'd say the best thing you could do is to recognize it for what it is, be civil to others, but engage as little as possible.

What do you mean by lower skilled work? I think generally those who work in Medicine, IT, Law, Engineering are considered higher skilled. Apparently those who work in IT are sometimes overruled by their bosses with little tech experience

But I think when one steps into the working world they must learn to lie about who they are, especially when it comes to how much experience they have and how much they love their jobs. It's a strange experience reading Mission Statements and Company Mottos. I used to believe they were for 'helping consumers' and 'doing good for the world' but now I realise it's all just a load of PR doublespeak. It's actually impressive how well humans can lie, and how their lives revolve around crafting a persona; it's something that I both admire and hate

You mentioned civility, but I realised recently that some bullying is subtle and 'professional', it's hard to explain.

I am seeing a psychiatrist to learn how to socialise better. Part of it is I want to learn how to fake certain expressions. It's important to look friendly and happy at all times, show sympathy even though you're dead inside. If I could become anyone at any time, that would be wonderful

 

[maleonolo]

This was the approach I took all my working life. I learned not to compare myself to others, because I'm too different - like comparing an apple to a Field Effect Transistor (FET). I just kept my opinions to myself and did my job. I was never "popular" (thank goodness), but when I spoke up to prevent what was to me an obvious problem, people actually were surprised and listened. At my last job, I was the most senior technician when I retired. I had outlasted even the supervisors and managers who had been with the company when I started.

I think if anyone works in an office setting or a place where hierarchy is important, it is extremely important to be likeable for career progression. At least, I've heard that presenting your skills as being greater than they actually are will help tremendously. It'd be interesting to hear what you guys have to say since many of you have worked for decades

 

[Grondhammar]

I think if anyone works in an office setting or a place where hierarchy is important, it is extremely important to be likeable for career progression. At least, I've heard that presenting your skills as being greater than they actually are will help tremendously. It'd be interesting to hear what you guys have to say since many of you have worked for decades

I've been in the technology & research spaces, commercial and education, for a long time. You're right that it's rare anywhere to just have a meritocracy (i.e. those who have greater ability end up leading). Honestly it's kind of the opposite in my experience.

I decided consciously and very early on, after observing the people at the top, that I was going to check out of the "career progression" mentality. I couldn't live with myself if I were stepping on others, using them as scapegoats for problems, etc. I knew what it took to feel satisfied with my job -- and so career be damned. I always want to help people and do good work, not be above others.

To each their own, but it is an option to just turn your back on the rat race and simply enjoy making other people's lives easier.

 

[TBRS1]

From my observations, it appears that people have to make a choice between interacting with others in an honest way (in which case they can feel "guilt"), or interacting in a self-centered ego driven way (in which "guilty feelings" are discarded).

I suppose that everybody has to make their own choice, based on circumstances and personal desire, but the choice is real, and all choices have consequences.

Personally, I prefer to interact in an honest way and pay the consequences for that.

The other option looks too nasty to be much fun.

 

[maleonolo]

From my observations, it appears that people have to make a choice between interacting with others in an honest way (in which case they can feel "guilt"), or interacting in a self-centered ego driven way (in which "guilty feelings" are discarded).

I'm not a good person but I can't get rid of guilt. Do you know any method to remove it?

I decided consciously and very early on, after observing the people at the top, that I was going to check out of the "career progression" mentality. I couldn't live with myself if I were stepping on others, using them as scapegoats for problems, etc. I knew what it took to feel satisfied with my job -- and so career be damned. I always want to help people and do good work, not be above others.

To each their own, but it is an option to just turn your back on the rat race and simply enjoy making other people's lives easier.

You're right, that option does exist

 

[TBRS1]

I'm not a good person but I can't get rid of guilt. Do you know any method to remove it?

Become a drug addict. You'll stop caring about who gets hurt, and how bad.

Is that what you really want?

 

[maleonolo]

Become a drug addict. You'll stop caring about who gets hurt, and how bad.

Is that what you really want?

I think many addicts are driven by desperation rather than a lack of empathy/guilt. Learning to use other people is probably an important part of growing up and entering the work force

 

[Hypnalis]

@maleonolo

It's still not clear what you're looking for with your questions.
IMO You'll get better answers of you provide more "work-centric" information about yourself, your profession, and your workplace.

Something to start with:

* Social skills always matter. But they matter much more for someone in Management or in Sales than for someone doing technical work
* The more technical a job is, the more having good skills protects you from "office politics"
* It's not uncommon for people to socialize a little at work, but it's not a social environment.
Most of the talking should be work-related.
* A lot of cooperation, particularly when you need someone's help to get something you're responsible done, is transactional. People help if they're told to, or if they know you'll "pay them back", of if they achieve a personal objective in the process (like learning a new skill).
Which is fine OFC - but to participate you need to learn how to trade.

Related to all this: as you mentioned, a lot of NT communication is factually inaccurate.
If you don't know how to deal with that in your work environment, you need to learn ASAP.

Your comments about Corporate Visions and Mission Statement suggests you're still figuring this out.
Corporate stuff like that is always self-serving BS, written only to support company goals. As is most of the non-technical text of externally-facing Corporate information.

The same will be true for a lot of management-to-employee(s) communication, and also some colleague-to-colleague exchanges. Figuring this out is a necessary workplace skill.

And assuming you're new to this: HR works for the company, not its employees. They're not usually your enemy, but even when they're helping you, they're never on your side.
But it's a professional requirement that they pretend to be. Just another area where clear communication is achieved with 90% objectively untrue content /lol.

I am seeing a psychiatrist to learn how to socialise better. Part of it is I want to learn how to fake certain expressions. It's important to look friendly and happy at all times, show sympathy even though you're dead inside. If I could become anyone at any time, that would be wonderful

Be careful how you do this. It's far easier to fake a friendly expression if you're enjoying the interaction.
IMO you're better off learning to enjoy minor human interactions, so your expressions are mostly natural.

BTW you don't need to look happy at all times, nor (in Western Culture) look genuinely sad when sympathy is appropriate. Some people do one or both OFC, but it's "ND optional".
Resting ***** face - Wikipedia

I doubt being a "chameleon" is even healthy for an Aspie. It might be possible but I suspect it's only easy for a subset of people with non-ASD "wetware" issues (ASPD, "Dark Triad" etc).

 

[TBRS1]

I think many addicts are driven by desperation rather than a lack of empathy/guilt. Learning to use other people is probably an important part of growing up and entering the work force

Desperation makes one totally ego driven.

The big addictions are: drugs, sex, money, power, status.

If drugs aren't your thing, try one of the other four.

Anybody who goes far enough in pursuit of any of these addictions becomes an egomonster.

 

[UFO]

As above replies indicate, it all depends on type of your work and if workers are replaceable or assets. I'd also like to know what kind of events made you start this topic... Too little information to give any helpful opinions.

I have worked my whole life in software engineering where social skills are overrated, and mine are (for obvious reasons) questionable, so I won't say anything about how to improve workplace dynamics.

But I focused always just doing my job well, and because software has been my "special interest" since middle childhood, I became an asset to my boss. It didn't matter if I was asocial or disliked (I was asocial, but not disliked, as far as I can tell), keeping me around was beneficial to my boss' career. I was never interested of advancing in my own career, so I wasn't a threat to anyone as well, and my boss was happy to know that he can keep me around forever.

Quite often no-one expects people to do excellent work. Finding a person who can do that is always expensive, so usually just good job is enough. I don't know about "fake it until you make it"-attitude you described, it is not typical or respected approach in my culture, as far as I can tell. Usually people applying to the work underestimate their skills, in my culture, as far as I can tell

I socialized enough to get along with people, but mostly was "I'd like to chat, but I want to get this done before the lunch". Then I joined lunch with people, let them do talking, smiled politely to their jokes, and then went back to work. People never had any "Let's go for one at local bar after the work"-events, so I didn't have to decline from those (thought I used to like hanging with intoxicated people because that way I could understand them better - they became more honest and straightforward).

I have always kept my job, never been laid off, or felt being in danger of being laid off, and haven't noticed any mistreatment (which might actually be one of my deficits, I don't know...)

Am I being naïve for believing what people preach when they act differently?

Yes

Should I grow up and learn to be two-faced and immoral?

No

I'll put it this way: Sociopaths can have great careers, but if you are not one, it is probably not worth of it.

If you feel you are constantly disappointed to people, it is better to take "hope for the best, prepare for the worst"-attitude so bad things won't surprise and thus disappoint you: Expect them to be most likely helpful, supportive and backing you up, if it is not much effort to them. Expect them to be less likely to sacrifice themselves for you, and instead being ready to leave you on your own, if helping you requires some effort from them.

Be grateful and show that if they do first mentioned (even if it appears to be part of their job and shouldn't be anything special - most people are funny in that way they keep doing good things if they get something out from it), but don't get angry if they do latter one (because showing slight disappointment works better than bursting out, and because anger just makes them defensive and they start deflecting critique and they refuse to improve).

I want to learn how to fake certain expressions.

When I was a child, I used to practice expressions and gestures in front of a mirror. I don't remember why, I might have had trouble of doing them correctly or something. Now most of them come automatically and in a (supposedly) correct context, just like when NTs do them.

Anyways... Start smile from your eye corners. Lifted eye corners are the first indication of it, corners of the mouth follow as an indication that you allow your smile to show. Smiling without eyes participating looks fake. Hardest part is to choose smiling situations correctly.

 

[Judge]

Also if anyone has tips for avoiding people and not feeling lonely that'd be great

Something I have posted many times over the years here. That given my neurological profile as an autistic person, my routine need for solitude always exceeds any sense of loneliness.

I accept it like a mathematical equation that is "pure". To accept and not forget that as a human being I will always experience some degree of loneliness from time to time. But that my need for solitude keeps me sane- and whole on a level that loneliness cannot approach.

I know there's no such thing as a human connection because it's just a game of social hierarchy and dominance

Yes.

Then supplement such awareness to accept the inherent transactional nature of human beings. That in essence all human relationships are political in nature. That virtually everyone seeks something from others ultimately for their own personal aggrandizement. -Period.

Then consider striving to avoid the inevitable pitfall of ideological thinking. To avoid "marrying" any ideal unconditionally. To accept that life is dynamic and always requires periodic "adjustments". Never to stagnate on a flawed perception that some ideals can be perfect.

Not in an attempt to be moral per se, but rather to remain ethical.

What Is The Difference Between Morality and Ethics?

 

[Outdated]

Please help me, I need to learn to survive in the workplace.

You've mentioned a couple of different issues in your post but I'll respond to the one I feel is most important first.

Hazing, exclusion, workplace politics, these are all essential to climb the ladder. If you asked them about their morals, they'd talk about how good they are. I know they're trying to fit in but it makes me if people feel as much empathy as they say they do, because most people don't seem to experience much guilt

Social Hierarchy - The Hen Pecking Order. This is a game most autistic peole are not capable of playing. Here's a copy of one of my previous posts on the topic:

-------

The single biggest problem Autistic people face both within and outside the workplace is our inability to conform to social hierarchies. This is completely different and unrelated to the hierarchy between employer and employee, that hierarchy is easily understood and acceptable.

Many people require a form of hierarchy in their social environments, there has to be a leader of the pack and this usually means themselves. These social hierarchies often have quite rigid structures and the great majority of the world’s population will automatically fit themselves in to their correct positions within these hierarchies. Most people don’t even realise they’re doing this, it’s just natural and instinctive for them.

The hen pecking order.

Autistic people are different, many of us can’t even see the social cues that delineate these hierarchies, and those of us that can perceive it as a form of submission to a bully – which it is.

The trouble always starts when for one reason or another we fail to comply to this hierarchy, when we resist the rest of the social group will instinctively defend the hierarchy and try to force us to conform. If we retaliate we are seen as the one in the wrong. All of a sudden the entire groups seems to be against us.

All people are different and so all people will respond in different ways. None of us are able to cope with these situations and many of us will shut down. Then there’s others like me who suffered cruelly as children, once I became an adult and got to feel what it was like to be respected and treated fairly I decided that never again in my life will I be a victim.

I don’t respond kindly. You have an idea of what ASD2 hyperfocus is, pick on me and you find out what happens when that’s turned to anger. Not actually violent unless hit first but the threat is very real, I want them to try and hit me and they know it. I’m highly intelligent and highly socially skilled and I know how to take down a bully. There’s lots of finger poking in the chest while I very loudly tell them of all their deficiencies and this is deliberately done in front of everyone else. I’m not a bad orator and I do love an audience. The threat of the removal of their base of power coupled with the threat of explosive violence if they dare try that path.

I changed jobs a lot. I’d beat the bully but then I’d also have associations of high stress with that workplace so I’d quit and move on. I averaged less than 6 months at any one workplace.

Different workplace environments, not workplace sizes, make a huge difference. Environments that require a very high degree of physical skill and dedication such as the trades and engineering don’t have that social hierarchy. In those areas every single one of them knows their worth in hard coin, the better you are the more you can earn and that’s the only thing that counts. Every single one of them is an egotistical powerhouse and if you try the alpha male crap on any of them they will fight back.

Working with truly skilled individuals is a pleasure because of the lack of any social hierarchy. Land in a workplace filled with half skilled wannabees and that social hierarchy is there in full force. Retail environments are even worse.

The lower the level of actual skill required in a workplace the more this social hierarchy is evident. When social skills are necessary in a job then the social hierarchy becomes absolute.

This social hierarchy topic is the key to so much. This is why most autistic people prefer one on one social situations rather than a group of friends – when it’s just the two of you there’s no hierarchy crap.

 

[Outdated]

How do I stop feeling guilt?

I managed to achieve that early on in life, quite simply by sticking to my own moral code and not trying to conform to what others think. I believe in myself because I like who I am and if others have a problem with that then it's them that has the problem, not me.

Don't get sucked in to playing other people's silly little games, that always ends badly, stick to your own moral code.

Don't let others change the way you think and the way you act, as soon as you start trying to be like them you will lose respect for yourself, and when you have no respect for yourself then no one else will have any respect for you either.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

How do I stop feeling guilt?

Well, if you hold value in the virtues of responsibility and accountability...you won't be able to stop feeling guilt for things you are truly guilty of. That pain should be there. You should remember that. It should train your behavior towards those of love, positivity, and temperance.

I often see people whose morals change to fit the group's beliefs. It's necessary to survive in the workplace. Hazing, exclusion, workplace politics, these are all essential to climb the ladder. If you asked them about their morals, they'd talk about how good they are. I know they're trying to fit in but it makes me if people feel as much empathy as they say they do, because most people don't seem to experience much guilt

This is a form of group think combined with competition combined with greed,...and as you have observed...when this happens, anything goes. It can, at times, bring out the worst of us. Individually, people are more likely to behave themselves...they can be lovely, intelligent, reasoned, morally-grounded,...but as a group, can turn into something else. It is a form of masking...a survival skill. On the other hand, when properly motivated, a group of people can be loving and positive. It just depends upon the situation.

Am I being naïve for believing what people preach when they act differently? Should I grow up and learn to be two-faced and immoral? I'm tired of believing all the lies people spout, trying to measure up to ideals no one actually cares about; it's like chasing a unicorn. I'm not a good person by far, but even so, I wish I could be more callous

I am all for giving people the benefit of the doubt...initially. However, if as you suggest, behave differently than what they presented themselves to be...trust is lost. I think you have to be quick to either drop those people from your inner circle, or at the very least, be very wary of them. Do not compromise your moral self for the sake of the group...even if it means being passed over for promotions.

Please help me, I need to learn to survive in the workplace. I can't go on like this anymore. I want to stop being so weak and I'm tired of the 'just be yourself' lies. I need to learn to haze and gossip and not feel guilty. 99% of the working world revolves around people and networking, I can't keep being so pathetic, so naïve. I know there's no such thing as a human connection because it's just a game of social hierarchy and dominance

Sticking to who you are is not being weak...it takes a lot of strength to recognize that you are up to your neck in toxic, immoral crap...and not cave into it. It's the weak ones that have. Part of the autism experience, for many, is not being intuitive enough to recognize intent and deceit until it's too late, but it also involves a lack of social reciprocity, a lack of seeking out new connections (networking), and a lack of hierarchal recognition. All of this has definitely held me back in terms of my career, but after some 40 years, I have stayed true to myself despite all the anger, frustration, disappointment, and disillusionment.

I am not neurotypical. I do not and cannot play by their rules. I have accepted that.

I play to my strengths. I have my own rules. I have my own thoughts. They do not have the ability to think on my level, nor I to theirs.

Stop the mental madness of trying to play their game. It won't work. They will have no empathy for you and you will have no empathy for them.

You can make efforts to be accepting and inclusive, to be loving and kind, to be reasoned and moral, but in the end there will always be that disconnect. It is what it is. Accept it for what it is. Head held high, straighten your back, calm and assertive, and do not take any of their crap. You don't have to be loud and argumentative...sometimes a calm gaze in the face of their crap is enough to let them know they cannot hold power over you.

I've lived a pretty good life overall. I have a wife, children, a career, a home, and some financial success...a lot to be thankful for...and I started from less than nothing and pushed through.

 

[Outsider]

Certain tactics help you climb up the corporate ladder, some lead to nowhere. Ass- kissing might put you in front of competition, but there is a price to pay, which is lost of respect from your colleagues. Gossiping is the stupidest thing to do, sooner or later it will put you at odds with everyone in the office.
I was using a different tactic to propel ,myself through the ranks, it is called shameless self-promotion. Every time I had an idea how to improve a project I would submit it to the senior staff. However, this tactics is not for everyone, you have to have workable ideas to succeed; otherwise you could put yourself at disadvantage.

 

[Matthias]

How do I stop feeling guilt?

I often see people whose morals change to fit the group's beliefs. It's necessary to survive in the workplace. Hazing, exclusion, workplace politics, these are all essential to climb the ladder.

I don't think hazing and excluding others is necessary to climb the ladder in most jobs. If I was in that situation, I'd either find another job or choose to be content with my current role in the company.

If you asked them about their morals, they'd talk about how good they are. I know they're trying to fit in but it makes me if people feel as much empathy as they say they do, because most people don't seem to experience much guilt

Am I being naïve for believing what people preach when they act differently? Should I grow up and learn to be two-faced and immoral? I'm tired of believing all the lies people spout, trying to measure up to ideals no one actually cares about; it's like chasing a unicorn. I'm not a good person by far, but even so, I wish I could be more callous

Most people feel guilty when they act in ways that are contrary to their values. Therefore, when it appears that others are being hypocritical or living in opposition to their values, it's likely that you are misunderstanding the situation. Instead of trying to be more callous and not feel guilty, I think it would be better and healthier to talk to a co-worker or supervisor about how you feel to try to better understand what's really going on.