For Those of You That Are Married...

[S-Head]

The relationship between an ASD and a NT (normal) spouse is complicated and causes great pain for most.

I'm the ASD guy, and my wife is the NT woman. We have had trouble for years, studied many books and sites, and seen a psychologist.

None of it seemed to work very much, and then she happened upon a site call happyaspergermarriage.

What a hyper real site. This woman is not a professional, however I think she has it nailed. Check out this rant against her ASD husband: ASPIE HUSBAND: WHY AM I SO ANGRY? – Happy Asperger Marriage

Wow. Warning, this is actually hard for me to read. I find it emotionally attacking. And it is very long. Because I had a strong emotional reaction to it, I couldn't read it all in one go. I can compare with her husband; I may not be that bad, but that's not the point. His faults are my faults. Her reaction is my wife's reaction.

She narrows it all down to empathy, and she does it well here: HOW TO TEACH EMPATHY TO SOMEONE WITH ASPERGER’S SYNDROME part 1 – Happy Asperger Marriage

What she's saying is that ASD partners have empathy if you can verbally state something (which she calls affective empathy) however they do not have the empathy that comes from body language, hints, and reading between the lines (which she calls cognitive empathy). This all seems to hit home with me... can anyone else comment on this site?

Does anyone else have ideas how to deal with an NT spouse? Or how they can deal with an ASD? Please share

 

[Momo]

I think it all comes down to communication, without any hidden meanings said between lines, just blunt and plain talking. If you are sharing your thoughts with your wife and she with you it can really help improve a relationship. We just have to remember to share what we're thinking at times and not bottle it all up, and NTs have to remember we may not pick up on everything unless it is stated.
That is my sound relationship advice.

 

[Fridgemagnetman]

The 2nd link :

For instance, when their wife is crying or angry and says, “I hate you, you never listen to me and don’t love me!” All they are hearing is that they are being blamed for “never” doing something (listening), which they know is not true because they obviously DO listen. The Aspie husband hears that they are “hated” by the person who is supposed to love them the most and that erodes their sense of security. They are being told they also don’t “love” their wife, which they know damned-well is NOT true, so they feel an intense urge to vocally combat something so hurtful. They are completely inundated with a sentence that attacks them, threatens them, and calls them a liar and they have NO IDEA why. The Aspie husband LOVES his wife so it emotionally harms them to hear such things. They cannot always just blow off the insanity of their wife’s words the way they learned to with other stupid NT comments throughout their life. Something so cruel, hurtful, and untrue warrants an equally cruel response, or an incredible amount of passion to disprove, right?

What is missed is that while their wife said, “I hate you, you never listen to me and you don’t love me!” what she actually meant was, “I feel like you are not understanding me and because you are not acknowledging what I am saying and I love you so much, it is causing me a lot of pain and anger… this anger feels like hatred sometimes because I can’t believe the man who is supposed to love and respect me the most, does not seem interested or concerned with how upset I am right now.”


That hits home. If someone says emotional things to me, like hunting they want to leave as an expression of anger..
I find it hard to handle as I take it literally. ( I wouldn't say it if I didn't mean it)

So when my wife is expecting me to express mysel emotionally it doesn't happen as I can't say things that I don't mean in anger i.e. 'I'm going to leave' without thinking it will hurt her immeasurably (like it does me) and also thinking if it's said I have to do it.
At the same time, as I don't express myself that way, my wife is hurt anyway. I don't always understand why. But she's expecting me to express myself emotionally so she can read between the lines to get to know me more.
I try to show restraint, act with consideration but that often means I am unable to express anything.

79-90% of communication is non verbal in the link.
So that means there's a lot more work than I thought!
It's like someone taught me language as a joke. Then everyone is laughing at me for using it when no one else was the whole time

Being defensive, is accurate in the links (aspergersexpert is good for that)
And using alcohol to be a 'normal' person is also good and relevant to me.

Thanks for the links

Affective empathy.

 

[S-Head]

The 2nd link :

For instance, when their wife is crying or angry and says, “I hate you, you never listen to me and don’t love me!” All they are hearing is that they are being blamed for “never” doing something (listening), which they know is not true because they obviously DO listen. The Aspie husband hears that they are “hated” by the person who is supposed to love them the most and that erodes their sense of security. They are being told they also don’t “love” their wife, which they know damned-well is NOT true, so they feel an intense urge to vocally combat something so hurtful. They are completely inundated with a sentence that attacks them, threatens them, and calls them a liar and they have NO IDEA why. The Aspie husband LOVES his wife so it emotionally harms them to hear such things. They cannot always just blow off the insanity of their wife’s words the way they learned to with other stupid NT comments throughout their life. Something so cruel, hurtful, and untrue warrants an equally cruel response, or an incredible amount of passion to disprove, right?

What is missed is that while their wife said, “I hate you, you never listen to me and you don’t love me!” what she actually meant was, “I feel like you are not understanding me and because you are not acknowledging what I am saying and I love you so much, it is causing me a lot of pain and anger… this anger feels like hatred sometimes because I can’t believe the man who is supposed to love and respect me the most, does not seem interested or concerned with how upset I am right now.”


That hits home. If someone says emotional things to me, like hunting they want to leave as an expression of anger..
I find it hard to handle as I take it literally. ( I wouldn't say it if I didn't mean it)

So when my wife is expecting me to express mysel emotionally it doesn't happen as I can't say things that I don't mean in anger i.e. 'I'm going to leave' without thinking it will hurt her immeasurably (like it does me) and also thinking if it's said I have to do it.
At the same time, as I don't express myself that way, my wife is hurt anyway. I don't always understand why. But she's expecting me to express myself emotionally so she can read between the lines to get to know me more.
I try to show restraint, act with consideration but that often means I am unable to express anything.

79-90% of communication is non verbal in the link.
So that means there's a lot more work than I thought!
It's like someone taught me language as a joke. Then everyone is laughing at me for using it when no one else was the whole time

Being defensive, is accurate in the links (aspergersexpert is good for that)
And using alcohol to be a 'normal' person is also good and relevant to me.

Thanks for the links

Affective empathy.

Yeah I know! That was a powerful post.

Oh man, you've given me a new idea -- talk like an NT, which as you say, one must say things that they don't really mean and that have meanings between the lines.

I dunno if I can do it. Maybe we can practice here?

 

[pax]

Maybe NTs could say what they mean. There's a thought.

 

[Fridgemagnetman]

Yeah I know! That was a powerful post.

Oh man, you've given me a new idea -- talk like an NT, which as you say, one must say things that they don't really mean and that have meanings between the lines.

I dunno if I can do it. Maybe we can practice here?

I dont know, but i hope veryone eligible on this board finds someone like her

Your job is to post the link each time an NT appears with problems

The difference between empathy, cognitive and affective works well as an explanation.

 

[Suzanne]

I could not stomach reading the post! It is so unjust.

For example: if one was married to a person with classic autism, then they have to learn to adapt. If a person is married to someone with down syndrome, they have to learn to adapt.

It is being made out that aspergers is something that one can control completely.

My husband recently said, after I had a meltdown: is that Suzanne speaking or blasted aspergers? I just had to walk out, but when I had calmed down, I said: is it "his name" or is it being an NT? He got the point that it is not seperate. He hates my meltdowns, to the extent that he heavily disagrees with them and thinks I am a brat for getting into them and why the heck can I not control myself?

It takes two. So for example: if my husband screams that my voice is too loud, I would go into a meltdown, but if he said: darling, I am standing right next to you, I apologise and lower my voice.

If he left me alone, when I am in a meltdown, I would calm down quicker, rather than an insistant nagging.

Aspergers is not an excuse for being a B**** or B***.

 

[WereBear]

What is missed is that while their wife said, “I hate you, you never listen to me and you don’t love me!” what she actually meant was, “I feel like you are not understanding me and because you are not acknowledging what I am saying and I love you so much, it is causing me a lot of pain and anger…

At the same time, as I don't express myself that way, my wife is hurt anyway. I don't always understand why. But she's expecting me to express myself emotionally so she can read between the lines to get to know me more.

Oh man, you've given me a new idea -- talk like an NT, which as you say, one must say things that they don't really mean and that have meanings between the lines.

Maybe NTs could say what they mean. There's a thought.

And there you have it.

Ironically, I come from a culture where I was supposed to be trained as a Southern Belle; as in, never saying what I really mean, using words to manipulate, and constantly keeping other people off balance so they will be more insecure and malleable.

This is an interesting sociological concept on how the powerless can manage to cope in an oppressive society, but utterly useless to me as someone who wanted an egalitarian marriage of equals.

So I found that the men in my life were thrilled when I gave up my early conditioning and just came out and stated what I meant and what I wanted. No more decoding! No more hinting! A basic informational exchange!

I plan to explore this website, but I already have a kind of skepticism. "Teaching empathy to someone with Asperger's" is kind of condescending, isn't it? When she turns around and admits she is using coded language with someone who hasn't learned that language?

Just use language to communicate honestly. Why is that so very difficult?

 

[Fridgemagnetman]

And there you have it.

Ironically, I come from a culture where I was supposed to be trained as a Southern Belle; as in, never saying what I really mean, using words to manipulate, and constantly keeping other people off balance so they will be more insecure and malleable.

This is an interesting sociological concept on how the powerless can manage to cope in an oppressive society, but utterly useless to me as someone who wanted an egalitarian marriage of equals.

So I found that the men in my life were thrilled when I gave up my early conditioning and just came out and stated what I meant and what I wanted. No more decoding! No more hinting! A basic informational exchange!

I plan to explore this website, but I already have a kind of skepticism. "Teaching empathy to someone with Asperger's" is kind of condescending, isn't it? When she turns around and admits she is using coded language with someone who hasn't learned that language?

Just use language to communicate honestly. Why is that so very difficult?

79-90% of communication being non verbal from the article. But also done unconsciousally!
That's why it's so difficult to communicate honestly-they do communicate but they don't know how or why

Like I said - the sick joke of language.
Quite useful I find !
Being taught to speak then told off for using language to convey meaning or illustrate what you may be thinking

Any alien would surely find it strange...

 

[Dadwith2Autisticsons]

If one of the main purposes of that long blog was to get all those feelings out of her system, then I am all for it, as regardless if everything she says is totally accurate because of emotion, or other, repressing all those destructive feelings, will not be beneficial, and as that is how she feels.

If the purpose was also to enlighten others of the possible concerns of living with a spouse with Aspergers Syndrome and other conditions, then those rant blog posts and personal letter writtten by her served the purpose well, too, as nobody who read that could say she was not harmed in many ways.

But, if the purpose was to attack Aspy guys, as several statements showed, I feel that was improper. It came across a bit sexist and showed bias and a lack of empathy to post such. And if the purpose of writing all of that was to get him to understand and change, she went about it completely the wrong way. No wonder why he crumbled it up at the end.

It takes two to make a marriage work. Yes, he likely had lots of issues, but she did not talk about many wrongs that she contributed to the marriage, or focus too on what she could have done better. There was no balance. It was as if he was wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, and she was victim, victim, victim.

Yes, it likely was her long rant after a long build up of emotions over a long time. Just as much as she has feelings and suffered, so has he likely suffered so much too in the relationship. He may not show it as much, or express her wrongs as much, but to be critiqued over and over again by someone is killing his soul too. Guys have feelings too, regardless what many persons in this society thinks.

He likely rather be alone anyway than living with someone who did not appreciate him and try to help him in better ways, so I am glad that relationship initially ended. She says she tried numerous different approaches to help him. How about read up extensively on Aspergers Syndrome and any other condition he had prior to see the best way to handle those. Not coming at him in all directions and ways.

Of course an Aspie, regardless if they are a man or women, will have difficulties, and we should not sweep all of that under the table. But, to make every Aspie trait so dramatic and evil is not showing empathy. Do not marry someone if you want to change them. Know your partner well before you get married. Talk about everything before marriage, as that is a commitment.

I am not saying if he was doing all those things she said, he was right, but what he did, that was either him that could not be changed, and/or some of his behaviors could have been flaired by that other not understanding and his built up frustration, too. I wish I had his side to the story. But, maybe he did not want to post it as it would hurt her feelings. That would show empathy on his part, if that was the case.

I saw the more positive update, from her too, but still, it should have not come to that, had she not resorted to that other. There will be lessons learned from this of course.

 

[WereBear]

Of course an Aspie, regardless if they are a man or women, will have difficulties, and we should not sweep all of that under the table. But, to make every Aspie trait so dramatic and evil is not showing empathy. Do not marry someone if you want to change them. Know your partner well before you get married. Talk about everything before marriage, as that is a commitment.

I find your whole post full of my own feelings, where I concluded she wasn't really trying that hard to reach out and understand.

I'm on the flipside of the situation, where I'm ND and my husband is NT. He used to be bothered, I now know, that I was not expressing feelings in the ways and styles he expected. Still, he loved me, recognized I did have emotions, and accepted his puzzlement over it without blaming me for not doing what he expected.

Discovering my diagnosis has let both of us relax, actually. He knows I'm coming at it from a weird angle, I know he has different visible reactions because he's NT. Amusingly, at least from my point of view, is the fact that I can explain my emotions and why I "do them" better than he can. He falls back on "supposed to" in ways that baffle me, and he's starting to see that he can't explain what he does as well as I can

Not that anyone is right or wrong. It's difference, that's all.

And when you consider how an NT/NT marriage can result in one of the parties going on a rant rampage about how lousy the other person made them feel... I think we should remember that NTs can be basically lousy at emotional communication by their own selves, too

 

[wight]

[We] are learning to put ourselves in check (on our own) and come back to the other person with a calm and effective use of words to clear up our communication breakdowns now... and I am beginning to realize what a stubborn jerk I can be and finally learning how to correct some of my own negative behavior patterns

Out of the thousands of words she wrote railing against her husband, her anger, how HE has to change, etc. this is the most important part of it ALL. The emphasized phrase (my emphasis) being the most critical part of WHY her marriage is now starting to be successful.

I mean really, she's spent all this time (years) and energy and effort to finally figure out that
a) you have to say what you mean and not expect the other person to read your mind
b) that BOTH people have to put themselves in check and communicate calmly and effectively

This is true for ANY couple, NT to ND or otherwise. I'm not saying this is easy to do, and realize this may be harder in the NT-ND relationship than NT-NT, but it's not like she is the only one that has ever had a bad marriage that got fixed by doing a) and b). You don't have to have an ND husband to feel everything she felt, or have an immature, defiant, argumentative relationship, especially when you are so focused on your partner's faults that you don't even acknowledge your own.

 

[Dadwith2Autisticsons]

I find your whole post full of my own feelings, where I concluded she wasn't really trying that hard to reach out and understand.

I'm on the flipside of the situation, where I'm ND and my husband is NT. He used to be bothered, I now know, that I was not expressing feelings in the ways and styles he expected. Still, he loved me, recognized I did have emotions, and accepted his puzzlement over it without blaming me for not doing what he expected.

Discovering my diagnosis has let both of us relax, actually. He knows I'm coming at it from a weird angle, I know he has different visible reactions because he's NT. Amusingly, at least from my point of view, is the fact that I can explain my emotions and why I "do them" better than he can. He falls back on "supposed to" in ways that baffle me, and he's starting to see that he can't explain what he does as well as I can

Not that anyone is right or wrong. It's difference, that's all.

And when you consider how an NT/NT marriage can result in one of the parties going on a rant rampage about how lousy the other person made them feel... I think we should remember that NTs can be basically lousy at emotional communication by their own selves, too

I feel it can be instinct for many Nts to blame one with a condition, for all of the problems in a relationship, and to absolve themselves from any wrong. That is not reality. Often that one with the condition is no less wrong in my eyes, and if anything could want to handle things better than the other.

There are tons of persons out there with no formal diagnoses that have lots of issues too, and yet they often refuse to accept any blame. So, they may have not put forth their best effort in the relationship, too. They rather resort to intense emotion to get their ways. That would not help an Aspie, nor me even.

I am more apt to listen when I feel love and respect than disrespect and hate. And if this was showed consistently to me, and done in fair and calmer way. Likewise, I believe in doing the same. She likely loved him, but I felt things could been handled way better. She was not the only victim there.

I am glad wearbear your situation is very different, and you did not have to go through all that. It sounds like you both have found what works for you. I wish more relationships would have both partners willing to understand, appreciate and respect those differences.

One concern I had in her update is she never admitted she was a bully to him too. She just said he felt she bullied him, making it sound his feelings were not real or justified. Yet, she had no problem stating he was a bully. Yes, she said she was changing in ways, so good, but I did not sense she felt she was doing so because she felt she was wrong, but just so as to not irritate him.

 

[Chance]

OK, I read the whole thing... Some of it was informative, some of it was awful, and some of it was her being a bully while thing about being bullied....

I think she jumped horses and never realized it... She is blaming ASD while ranting on ODD
I don't have ODD, so I don't relate to what she is spewing about.
I see some good points in what she says and some of it is informative.

BUT I also see just one more NT bully trying to force a ND person into being her source of happiness.

No ND can pay that price. No person is the sole root of another persons happiness.
I would never demand someone to change for me... That is all I have endured all my LIFE.

I think NT's think that we can change and become NT's - We can fake it for a while at a huge energy expense, but thats about it.

I may have misunderstood her rant, but I guess thats what makes me ASD and her an NT!

I kind of feel sorry for this John guy. It seems like he becomes an NT or he is this monster from hell.
Like I said I don't know about ODD, maybe he is, but ASD is not ODD and thats where I derailed!

 

[S-Head]

Thanks everyone for your comments. I know it must have taken you a lot of time to go through that site. I know for me, it was considerable.

Score 1 for the community spirit of this place.

 

[JDartistic]

We are whom we are.

My NT wife left me after many years, but I realized that during our entire marriage, I was conforming to her and she did nothing to support me. The end result is that she spent the entire relationship trying to change me, and what was sad was that I went along with it and did my best to do what she wanted, as opposed to how I was really feeling at the time. In other words, I lost myself to the relationship, which in the end, is why I'm happier alone, b/c at least I'm myself and not someone else's idea of whom I should be.

It's hard being married. It's a give and take, but sometimes, it's not a balanced relationship - and when that happens, it's unhealthy for both partners.

I will add that I find myself looking for autistic traits in my dates these days. I think I'm reluctant now to get involved with a NT, b/c I suspect I would be happier with a fellow Aspie...

 

[S-Head]

We are whom we are.

My NT wife left me after many years, but I realized that during our entire marriage, I was conforming to her and she did nothing to support me. The end result is that she spent the entire relationship trying to change me, and what was sad was that I went along with it and did my best to do what she wanted, as opposed to how I was really feeling at the time. In other words, I lost myself to the relationship, which in the end, is why I'm happier alone, b/c at least I'm myself and not someone else's idea of whom I should be.

It's hard being married. It's a give and take, but sometimes, it's not a balanced relationship - and when that happens, it's unhealthy for both partners.

I will add that I find myself looking for autistic traits in my dates these days. I think I'm reluctant now to get involved with a NT, b/c I suspect I would be happier with a fellow Aspie...

Thanks JD. I sometimes think if that is my situation as well. I can see some give on both sides for us, although currently it is me who is catching up.

Best of luck with finding the right one!

 

[ms grey]

wow - that woman needs to take a chill pill. I have met her type when I worked. I am really surprised that she may still be in the relationship.

Relationships are work. They are also about growth and letting go. Each person is responsible for their own happiness and she just seemed a bit needy and expecting him to fill that need.

I would ask why she was in the relationship, why she got into the relationship in the first place. I worked with men that were aspies and others that were NT. Everyone had issues from time to time.

I went through a long period in my life where work was enough. The divorce was behind me, I had dated some after. Now I just needed to be with myself and my own stuff. I met someone when my work life was going away. We still have issues but we have good times. The thing that is needed is respect and appreciation as well as love. We have lived together since 2005. There are things that we discuss and things we privately put into "perspective". Sometimes the "perspective" becomes discussed later.

As an aside, I have seen a few women (not many) chase and catch an asperger man with a great tech job as they needed the income for the child(ren) that they had in the previous marriage(s). Then proceed to be unhappy in that marriage. Nothing changed. Statistics show that 2 happy people when on their own tend to stay married. Miserable people have high divorce rates. I really did not have much respect for her after I read the articles and I tend to root for the woman.

She needs to put things in perspective. I have known women who were physically abused by their addicted husband and were still trying to make things work for the children. Of course, until the husband threw the boy against the wall. The boy lived but child protective services stepped in. I had a co-worker die of AIDS as her needle using husband gave it to her. At almost 65, I have seen all kinds of things. That woman just seemed like a spoiled needy wimp. First world problems.

 

[Yet_Another_Little_Prof]

Empathy, schmempathy! FWIW, I am innately a bit of an empath. Others' challenges and sadness can make be break out in tears. Honestly, I'm probably a bit too much of an empath. The issues in my marriage have nothing to do with empathy. What causes conflict are things like, my brain farts, my lack of coordination, my naivete, my random and unpredictable lapses in executive function, and other typical Autistic traits. She comes from a culture that handles non NTs as follows:

1) We will beat you (either physically, emotionally, or both) into "normalcy." After all, the nail that sticks up must be pounded down.
2) If you fail to become normal through this "A-B-A on steroids," we will marginalize you, and treat you as a subhuman. This treatment will include even your closest family members. You will have no refuge.
3) If #2 causes you to break down, then we will either throw you out on the street (non 1%er families) or we will have you live with the hired help (1%er families).
4) Do not dare think you have equal rights with NTs. You are being punished for the sins of your past life. Therefore, you must prostrate yourself and beg for mercy. The only decent disabled people are the quiet ones who cower in the corner.

Conflict is inevitable, given my bad choice of partner! So many red flags I ignored when we dated and courted.

 

[Keigan]

I've looked at her blog previously and had to turn away from it due to the hatred. There are so many other ways to work through things.