Empathy - Do you feel it?

[Fridgemagnetman]

Affective empathy, also called emotional empathy: the capacity to respond with an appropriate emotion to another's mental states. Our ability to empathize emotionally is based on emotional contagion: being affected by another's emotional or arousal state.
Cognitive empathy is the largely conscious drive to recognize accurately and understand another's emotional state.

My perspective of doing a test - I know it's a test. It's not real, so why do I need to respond?
The keyword in the quote above,for me, is 'appropriate'

That's a social word, based on the way society tends to move in cultural groups.

If you're outside that, you may feel things incredibly strongly but it may not be 'appropriate'
Asd types can be known as lacking boundaries
There is also a risk of having a poor sense of self - no boundary between self and other.
One wonders if one feels the pain but can't label it as there is a lack of social understanding.
This therefore starts a long journey -
One to separate oneself from others in order to be able to function as it is too much to bear.
The cognitive empathy becomes more of an add on to label and define.

I shut down from feeling too much.

 

[Loren]

I am HFA + hyper-empathic. Empathy is not a myth, I can assure you. I, at times, have wished I could give some of mine away, as it can be, quite, intense.

 

[Mia]

In a similar situation, I am able to emotionally intuit how the person feels. I feel the sadness from their perspective while I am simultaneously aware that I cannot logically understand or comprehend their experience. The sensation doesn't stress me out and I am able to respond comfortingly. The words and behaviour I express are particular to the person and there is a reciprocal mirroring of feeling. They feel that I can feel them.

I'm able to do that. And have for all of my life. I have high-functioning asperger's. So I take it that the textbook lack of cognitive empathy among people with autism is a generalization.

 

[SusanLR]

Personal distress is emotional empathy. The consensus in neuroscience separates emotional and cognitive empathy when studying the AS population. This is because some (not all) segments of the AS population are capable of emotional empathy, which is the distressing feelings felt when watching distressing scenes.

Thanks for this concise explanation of emotional empathy vs cognitive.
I've struggled with understanding the total meanings of the word,
but, finally I think I am seeing the reason for the misunderstanding may be the very reason that
two different types of empathy have always been put together as one.
Breaking it down makes much more sense.

I've also read that most of the AS people do have emotional empathy, but do not know how to express
it in an NT way. We tend to look for logical answers and logical help for others in distress.
Cognitive empathy seems to have always been much more dominate than emotional when it is broken down in defining the two types for self.
Yet I have always been one of those whom desires to help others figure out how to deal with a problem
or emotional distress.
Well there again it's coming back to the way of the Aspie to see things as a puzzle that must have a
way to mentally find an answer to.

I fall short in the emotional half. Only the people I feel a closeness or love for such as parents,
a romantic partner or a beloved pet do I seem to have the emotional empathy feelings.
I don't get the distressed feelings when seeing distressing scenes and never understood why
others say they can't stand watching horror films or the Criminal Minds type graphic shows.
They don't give me nightmares or any feelings at all. Just psychological interest in behavioural analysis
or entertainment in horror films.
So finally I think I'm understanding through the differences in the two types.

 

[Falcon]

I'm able to do that. And have for all of my life. I have high-functioning asperger's. So I take it that the textbook lack of cognitive empathy among people with autism is a generalization.

You are an exception to the norm. There are always exceptions to the norm, according to the discipline. Not all generalizations are absolute. Knowledge according to the scientific method is an iterative process that is always seeking a better understanding.

Physics is a discipline where some generalizations are absolute, like the Law of Gravity. Still, astrophysics has yet to understand all the workings of the cosmos.

Neuroscience specific to the AS population is a developing story. Remember, ASD is a comparatively recent discovery and there is still a lot of disagreement on how to classify it. You are likely an outlier, to have cognitive empathy. I am guessing that you are also extremely high-functioning by AS standards, and that you have the capacity to sustain a romantic relationship.

You are extremely lucky, to have the strengths of ASD as well as the telepathy of cognitive empathy.

 

[Fridgemagnetman]

You are extremely lucky, to have the strengths of ASD as well as the telepathy of cognitive empathy

Isn't cognitive empathy our bag? Ie non telepathic,more conscious?

As Google says :

Cognitive empathy is the largely conscious drive to recognize accurately and understand another's emotional state.

 

[Progster]

This is a better test for cognitive empathy: the inability to accurately perceive another person's feelings from their perspective, through feeling their sadness and not your own. It is not a matter of logical understanding and imitating cues of sadness. It is about intuitive, interactive, reciprocal emotions, where their feelings guide an accurate, proportionate feeling in you. [Edit to emphasise: Disproportionate distress is not a measure.]

What about when people cry in movies? Many people on the spectrum report that they cry in movies or are affected emotionally - is that cognitive empathy? Or emotional empathy?

 

[Fridgemagnetman]

What about when people cry in movies? Many people on the spectrum report that they cry in movies or are affected emotionally - is that cognitive empathy?

That's just being soppy.

(Sorry couldn't resist)

 

[Propianotuner]

You are an exception to the norm. There are always exceptions to the norm, according to the discipline. Not all generalizations are absolute. Knowledge according to the scientific method is an iterative process that is always seeking a better understanding.

Science is like a grey haired professor alone in a room with a pencil. He looks at the pencil and says: "Isn't it fascinating how pencil-like the room is?"

Then as he looks around the room some more he finds that his pencil isn't quite as similar to the room as he had previously thought. So he goes and finds another, more fitting pencil. And the process repeats, because one can observe much but in principle it's impossible to generalize from particulars.

 

[Falcon]

Isn't cognitive empathy our bag? I.e. non telepathic, more conscious?

As Google says: Cognitive empathy is the largely conscious drive to recognize accurately and understand another's emotional state.

"Conscious drive" as used by neuroscientists refers to a non-logical process. It is not an intellectual rationalizing from context. I do think that "telepathy" is a better analogy, because the capacity is innate and intuitive.

I think it is easier to explain through analogy, because the nuance is difficult to define in words.

What about when people cry in movies? Many people on the spectrum report that they cry in movies or are affected emotionally - is that cognitive empathy? Or emotional empathy?

That is "personal distress," a component of emotional empathy. Unlike cognitive empathy, such distress isn't guided by the reciprocation of an intimate exchange, as the scene doesn't "involve" the viewer in the same way as real-time, real-life interaction.

And the process repeats, because one can observe much but in principle it's impossible to generalize from particulars.

Yes. Data-gathering requires a large sample of particulars, then finding common patterns through qualitative/quantitative analysis.

 

[Fridgemagnetman]

"Conscious drive" as used by neuroscientists refers to a non-logical process. It is not an intellectual rationalizing from context. I do think that "telepathy" is a better analogy, because the capacity is innate and intuitive.

I don't think you're right.

Emotional Empathy and Cognitive Empathy | Blog – Teleos Leadership Institute

Finally, cognitive empathy is a more conscious, deliberate, and abstract process involving higher levels of abstraction, but is no less important.

When we look at emotional and cognitive empathy through the lens of emotional and social intelligence competencies, we see that developing cognitive empathy skills is linked to self- and social awareness, while developing self-management and relationship management competencies is linked to emotional empathy. This is particularly true with regard to negative emotions.

Cognitive empathy is deliberate, a skill that everyone at work can learn and needs to use. Emotional empathy is automatic; it happens to us, rather than us doing it. But, we can be deliberate in this process too, simply by attending to ourselves (self-awareness) and managing our emotional responses to people and situations (self-management). Among medical doctors, this skill is referred to as “bedside manner,” and it is something that can be learned and applied in order to bring emotional empathy under conscious control. These skills are more than worth learning as we all need cognitive and emotional empathy in sufficient measures to contribute to society and organizations.

 

[Propianotuner]

I don't think you're right.

Emotional Empathy and Cognitive Empathy | Blog – Teleos Leadership Institute

Have to agree with the Fridge here. It stands to reason that, as is the case with so many other mental processes, there is a both a subconscious and conscious level in play.

Edit: Embarrassed I didn't even check the source, was being presumptive...

 

[Falcon]

I don't think you're right.

Emotional Empathy and Cognitive Empathy | Blog – Teleos Leadership Institute

I disagree with the source you are using, although it is of course your right to choose a definition you prefer. Your author, Chris Allen Thomas, is not a scientist. He uses a simplified understanding of "empathy" to inform his corporate training classes, directed towards business development.

My understanding of cognitive empathy is based on neuroimaging and neuropathology:

This process of understanding another person's perspective, termed ‘cognitive empathy’ (‘I understand what you feel’) appears to depend upon higher cognitive functions such as cognitive flexibility (Decety and Jackson, 2004). Neuroimaging studies have implicated the medial frontal lobes as playing a critical role in a dedicated ‘mentalizing’ or ‘Theory of Mind’ (ToM) network in humans (Gallagher and Frith, 2003).

Source: Two systems for empathy: a double dissociation between emotional and cognitive empathy in inferior frontal gyrus versus ventromedial prefrontal lesions

If we disagree on disciplinary sources - if you prefer business research over neuroscience research - then it follows that we will not agree on definition. I think that the Oxford paper is extremely comprehensive, and it is worth reading in its entirety.

 

[Fridgemagnetman]

not a scientist. He uses a simplified understanding of "empathy" to inform his corporate training classes, directed towards business development.

And what are you?
What are your qualifications?

Affective empathy, also called emotional empathy: the capacity to respond with an appropriate emotion to another's mental states. Our ability to empathize emotionally is based on emotional contagion: being affected by another's emotional or arousal state.
Cognitive empathy is the largely conscious drive to recognize accurately and understand another's emotional state.

It's the definition of what constitutes conscious drive. You mentioned earlier.

Conscious drive" as used by neuroscientists refers to a non-logical process. It is not an intellectual rationalizing from context. I do think that "telepathy" is a better analogy, because the capacity is innate and intuitive.

I think the innate and intuitive is more likely to refer to affective empathy.

Children are taught to have empathy as part of our social systems. Implying it is not innate.
Read about the first couple of years of a child's development -they are effectively psychopaths.
Parents take a long time teaching them - my take it is cognitive empathy being taught.

Although , I don't have a neuroscience quote for it, darn

Perhaps a more conscious process that once it becomes learnt is then forgotten by the conscious mind is as the children get older it becomes an ingrained habit.
Whereas,as part of asd,more of that process of 'learnt empathy' remains conscious.

But is it putting ourselves in another persons shoes or is it intellectualising the other persons shoes?

The result the same but the process different.

 

[Falcon]

And what are you?
What are your qualifications?

I'm doing a PhD in a hard science discipline. For my privacy (and moreso that of my ex) I don't wish to provide more identifying details.

I hope that you can trust that my contribution here is in good faith.

But is it putting ourselves in another persons shoes or is it intellectualising the other persons shoes?

AS children are taught "scripts" to navigate social norms, and over time learn how to observe situations, books, movies, or existing relationships so as to add scripts to their repertoire. Using scripts consciously and subconsciously is intellectualising the other person's perspective.

The result the same but the process different.

The results appear similar but are different, because the process is different. Non-AS don't rely on scripts. Their socialisation is a multifaceted conditioning that includes "cognitive empathic" experience.

One means of testing cognitive empathy is testing for alexithymia, as there is partial overlap between AS and alexithymia symptoms:
Online Alexithymia Questionnaire

 

[DaRKMsOul18]

Hi, I have Asperger's, and no, I don't feel too much empathy, I feel some empathy about other people, but, I have my morals, just so you all know.

 

[Loren]

^You can be lacking in the empathy department, and still have a moral compass, for what it's worth.

 

[SusanLR]

I have read the link to the Two Systems of Empathy before and just re-read it.
I found this to be interesting as it concerns the two different brain areas involved in empathy:

>Collectively, the neuroanatomical, cytoarchitectonic and developmental evidence point to a consistent dissociation between two empathy systems that comprises the empathic response. Our model of two separate systems that operate in an exclusive manner is depicted in Fig. 6. According to our model, in normal circumstances every interaction with a protagonist may trigger independently both an emotional response (emotional empathy) as well as cognitive evaluation of his state of mind and perspective (cognitive empathy). Although both emotional and cognitive components of empathy are working autonomously, every empathic response will evoke both components to some extent, depending on various variables such as the social context, the level of distress (Jackson et al., 2005) and the perceived similarity between the individual and the protagonist<

Considering the crying at a movie scene:

For myself, this happens only when the scene is something I relate to in my own life experiences
that I find sad. It makes me think of the incident thus creating the feeling of sadness.

 

[SusanLR]

"Conscious drive" as used by neuroscientists refers to a non-logical process. It is not an intellectual rationalizing from context. I do think that "telepathy" is a better analogy, because the capacity is innate and intuitive.

I had to come back tonight to see if there were any more responses to this statement.

I would really like some article or input by neuroscientists that say Conscious Drive is not an intellectual process. Words like telepathy and intuitive are used more in parapsychology. Like a sixth sense.
When did that become hard science that is neuro imaging proved?
I have interest in parapsychology also.

Just when I thought I was understanding the two different types now we're calling it telepathy?

 

[Gekko2508]

Eugh, good question!
I don't feel anything except rage, sadness and love. All my other emotions are so faked I can feel my robotic mind go through the algorhythm.
"Is Person A raising their eyebrows near where they meet? Did you just make a remark? Person A might be CONFUSED. Request feedback."
Any empathy I "feel" is also fake, just to make sure I don't stick out like a sore thumb between my peers. I might imagine someone feeling a certain way, and understanding their reaction, but only from a calculated, experienced perspective.