Einstein and the logic of parenting..

[Spiller]

So I'm at my mother's house with my youngest son - my sister lives with her too.

My youngest has a strong mind for a 10 year old - he's an adult in a childs body - and if I want him to do something he may well do it (I ask nicely, I don't order him around, as that doesn't work with him) but I often find I have to give him an acceptable reason first.. or bribe him with pringles or pizza.
We basically have an understanding and therefore a good, non argumentative relationship.

Youngest is sitting there fiddling with my car keys when sis tells him to stop - the noise seems to be annoying her.

He carries on as he sees no reason to stop.

Sis gets quite annoyed and tells him in no-nonsense tones to STOP IT!

Youngest carries on.

I'm quietly aware of the back and forth exchange..

Sis eventually looks at me in exasperation, so I point out that she's not only raising her voice to him for little reason thus, from previous observation, ensuring he engages Stubborn Mode, she also hasn't asked nicely and told him why he should stop or offered him an alternative occupation - as she might expect to be treated.

I ask him to stop playing with the keys as it's annoying people and give him my phone to play games on, so he's now sitting there quietly.

It doesn't end there though - a heated discussion ensues as to youngests disobedience.
I point out that, as can be plainly seen, he's doing as I asked and the response is that, "Well of course he always does as you ask as you don't enforce 'boundaries'!"

Any cohesive logic that that sentence contains escapes me. I point out that I simply ask him to do only what I would - hypocrisy just doesn't fly with him at all.

Now, why can't people see that the way they parent youngest always initiates the stubborn reaction and the situation always escalates into lots of shouting, bad moods, tears and storming out. This includes sis, my mother and (especially) his mother, stepfather and older brother.
When I point out that, if they want a different reaction, they should try acting differently and I try to describe the best way I've found to do that, I get the blame for being a bad parent.. yet I'm the only one who never has a problem or cross word with him.

This is just one small example amongst many.. I don't understand why the family can't see the logic here:

If this doesn't work, even after several attempts, try that.. if that doesn't work, try something else, as per the quote:

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." A. Einstein.

I'd substitute 'Insanity' for 'Bad parenting'.

Am I wrong for getting to know my son and parenting him accordingly or is there really a set of rules I should abide by regardless?

Or some mix of the two?

Thoughts, experiences, please..

 

[Ylva]

I don't think your son particularly needs to learn about passive resistance, but if he wants to learn from the master, Gandhi did write some things.

Also, Zen meditation, because the harassment he receives from family members will start getting to him when he hits puberty, if not before.

I'm not sure, about the talking to your family bit. They'll probably feel attacked more than they have any right to, and maybe it is safer to casually suggest things in writing. If you feel they will be defensive anyway, maybe you should mention it as an afterthought. I know it's not "our way", but people rarely get into fights about afterthoughts.

"Hi, how are the kids, aww is your mom sick, blabla… oh, and by the way, Youngest totally did the thing when I asked him politely. Talk later cheers bye!"

 

[Spiller]

Thanks, Ylva, I will be teaching him meditation and spiritual philosophy soon as I feel he'll be ready to take it on board in the next couple of years, but your pointers on how I should approach family members with other than straight logic are much appreciated and under consideration.

.. Other than concerning his mother, who has only two settings - 'sweet' and 'BELLOW'
'Sweet' doesn't apply to me

 

[Warmheart]

I really love that you perceive how accommodating and kind your youngest son is, and that he merely is seeking some logic and respect, regarding requests. No wonder your little guy tries his best for you, you meet him where he is.

Some parents with a "One Size Fits All" approach may fail to recognize the individual their child is, and might get caught up in enforcing their rank/being right.

I am sure you have enough rules in place for your son's safety and for structure, but that you allow for his individuality in such a way that he knows he is understood, respected, and appreciated. What an amazing Dad you are! Your boys are so lucky.

PS-- Personally, all I learned from angry parental power-plays ("You'll sit there until you eat those mashed potatoes!") was that someone did not understand my perspective.

 

[AsheSkyler]

I think you did fine. I was like that as a kid. All I needed was to know WHY. I was perfectly fine with complying with a good reason and a polite request.

My toddler has to have the angry bellows. I can ask him nicely to stop doing whatever irritating thing he's doing (like bumping my arm when I'm trying to do my job), I can tell him no, I can do all manner of patient things, and he will just keep on until finally he gets in trouble and I'm angry. I'm hoping he'll be a bit more considerate and reasonable when he's older.

 

[On the Inside]

Although I only have one kid,9, I treat him much as you do your youngest. I feel I know him pretty well, and he is almost always accommodating when asked politely and given reasons and alternatives.

This can fly out the window when mom is with us. There is something about the dynamic (tension) of the three of us together that throws it off. I get the "you're too accommodating" spiel, I say it works best to keep things calm, then things can escalate from there. It is more to do with the dynamics of my relationship with my partner, and he picks up on it, I think because he's not certain of his place, stuck in the middle so to speak. She says they get along quite well without me around. The dog might have something to do with it, too, he's a bit high strung and needy.

Congratulations, I think you're (we're) doing fine. I look at it as an extension of the "attachment parenting" we practiced when he was a wee one. We held him a lot, and I carried him in various and sundry pouches and slings all over the place until he was too big and heavy to fit in them, around two and a half.

 

[Ste11aeres]

I point out that, as can be plainly seen, he's doing as I asked and the response is that, "Well of course he always does as you ask as you don't enforce 'boundaries'!"

Huh???

 

[On the Inside]

Huh???

Yeah, that makes no sense. I think what might be meant by that is: if one were enforcing boundaries properly, children wouldn't need to be told not to do something that is annoying. Such behavior would have been beaten out of them (literally or figuratively). Thus the yelling.

 

[Spiller]

I think you did fine. I was like that as a kid. All I needed was to know WHY. I was perfectly fine with complying with a good reason and a polite request.

Yeah, that makes no sense. I think what might be meant by that is: if one were enforcing boundaries properly, children wouldn't need to be told not to do something that is annoying. Such behavior would have been beaten out of them (literally or figuratively). Thus the yelling.

That's the kind of thing - if I enforce boundaries he should be obedient but as I don't, he's not, with anyone.. but he obviously is with me, hence why the sentense makes no sense.
Just like Ashe says, he just needs a reason and to be treated the way the adults around him expect to be. I think it has much to do with the 11 year age gap between him and his older brother - they were both essentially raised as only children, their primary peer group for those first years were all adult and they both had a similar attitude.
I even had a harder time when my eldest was young as that was my first go at parenthood but, perhaps because I'm calm and placid, don't like shouting, I picked up on the calm approach quicker.

I understand the group dynamic thing, On the Inside.. sounds like your partner is quite calm like you. Unfortunately my boys' mom is a shouter first, then she tries a little biased reason, then it's back to shouting - this has made them both develop a stubborn 'armor', I can see it drop down over their faces when someone even raises a voice slightly.
That's a known fundamental of parenting - overkill , like inappropriate punishment, becomes quickly ineffective.

 

[Spiller]

I really love that you perceive how accommodating and kind your youngest son is, and that he merely is seeking some logic and respect, regarding requests. No wonder your little guy tries his best for you, you meet him where he is.

Some parents with a "One Size Fits All" approach may fail to recognize the individual their child is, and might get caught up in enforcing their rank/being right.

I am sure you have enough rules in place for your son's safety and for structure, but that you allow for his individuality in such a way that he knows he is understood, respected, and appreciated. What an amazing Dad you are! Your boys are so lucky.

PS-- Personally, all I learned from angry parental power-plays ("You'll sit there until you eat those mashed potatoes!") was that someone did not understand my perspective.

Hey Warmheart, thank you so much

I was raised in a strict era - kids should be seen and not heard and all that, though my parents weren't as strict as they might have been - they even encouraged us to express an opinion in private.
Having lived an anxious life trying not to look stupid or cause offence myself, I want to encourage my kids to be able to express themselves, to feel confident in themselves.. to have a foundation to their personal development I didn't have.
To me, if this means their independence comes across as unacceptable willfulness to many, then some difficulties and compromises are a small price to pay to be able to see them walk through the world as strong confident men.

 

[Ste11aeres]

That's the kind of thing - if I enforce boundaries he should be obedient but as I don't, he,s not, with anyone.. but he obviously is with me, hence why the sentense makes no sense.
Just like Ashe says, he just needs a reason and to be treatedthe way the adults around him expect to be. I think it has much to do with the 11 year age gap between him and his older brother - they we're both essentially raised as only children, their primary peer group for those first years were all adult and they both had a similar attitude.
I even had a harder time when my eldest was young as that was my first go at parenthood but, perhaps, because I'm calm and placid, don't like shouting, I picked up on the calm approach quicker.

I understand the group dynamic thing, On the Inside.. sounds like your partner is quite calm like you. Unfortunately my boys' mom is a shouter first, then she tries a little biased reason, then it's back to shouting - this has made them both develop a stubborn 'armor', I can see it drop down over their faces when someone even raises a voice slightly.
That's a known fundamental of parenting - overkill , like inappropriate punishment, becomes quickly ineffective.

You ever hear about the dog named "****-you-Ginny!", who never came when called?

 

[Ylva]

I point out that, as can be plainly seen, he's doing as I asked and the response is that, "Well of course he always does as you ask as you don't enforce 'boundaries'!"

Huh???

I actually think they mean that since you "set no boundaries" (according to them) that obviously you won't have any conflicts with him. I suppose they imagine it as you being the conflict-shy pushover and him getting to be Veruca Salt (even though nothing you have said indicates that he behaves anything like her).

Eta: Analogy justification: Mr. Salt and his daughter never had any arguments because he always backed down and gave her what she wanted. Not saying you're like that, just that if that's how they think then the above statement sort of makes sense.

 

[Spiller]

I actually think they mean that since you "set no boundaries" (according to them) that obviously you won't have any conflicts with him. I suppose they imagine it as you being the conflict-shy pushover and him getting to be Veruca Salt (even though nothing you have said indicates that he behaves anything like her).

Eta: Analogy justification: Mr. Salt and his daughter never had any arguments because he always backed down and gave her what she wanted. Not saying you're like that, just that if that's how they think then the above statement sort of makes sense.

I understand Ylva thanks, that does make sense, guess that hadn't occurred to me because I know I set the (what I see as) important boundaries - hygiene, meals, bedtime, appropriate manners, etc.

I just don't like enforcing meaningless rules.. ie: his mother has a rule that he's not allowed to bring toys with him when he stays with me - her justification, that the toys at her house are to be played with at her house.
Not much of a problem now I've got my feet under me and can afford to buy him things, but in the first six months when I was homeless it was very hard to keep a five year old occupied while living in a car - and there, again, she insisted that I have him on my days despite my situation.

After those experiences it seems to me that many of her boundaries are purely for her convenience - to have to both wash in a public toilet was a soul destroying experience for me and I think that was more the point, my humiliation, than my sons development.
An extreme example, but I wonder how many boundaries people set with their kids for selfish reasons that are little to do with their children..