Do women really need ‘gentlemen’?

[Streetwise]

I am not into some conservative thinking where a true man is strong, silent, cannot show pain, must take care of her in financial and other ways according to culture norms, and must treat a woman on some pedestal. I do not feel this way because I see men and women as equals, and not one gender as weaker or stronger. Yes, there can be differences, but both women and men should expect to be treated how they treat others. If a woman or man was crass, egotistic, vain, selfish and rude, you better bet I would not reward that behavior by being very friendly back or like a gentleman to her in all those first article stated ways, despite me being naturally polite and respectful, and preferring to be that way to all.

Being too passive, pleasing and rigid to all in our actions, behaviors and patterns will cause many of our own needs to not be met, and we can get used and abused in that process, enabling those others to not be their best in life, too . And being too selfish, vain, demanding and needy is not the answer either to achieving happiness. I try to find an equal balance of being nice and friendly especially to those who share my same values, and to those who see men and women as equals. Too often genders are trying to compete with each other, and they want to show the other who is weaker, stronger, more deserving, or more harming. Those persons need to focus on bettering themselves, and not changing others.

Can you prove every conservative thinks like that?

 

[Aspychata]

I don’t think being a gentleman ever had anything to do with showing respect to women, as the author of the first article seems to think. It was about the appearance of respect - so that the cultures and societies women lived in could continue to use and disrespect them via extremely limiting gender roles. It was about manipulation. Be really nice to women so that they don’t realize they’re being screwed every day of their lives.

As women have gained more freedom and independence, “gentlemen” have become more scarce, thank goodness.

Totally agree with this well written and expressed viewpoint. I see many older men suggest to me l should be happy to have a roof over my head in exchange for housecleaning, boring bedroom exercises with zero love, and food. Because in their eyes ,that's all l am good for now that l have reached a certain age. So to be a gentleman is their farce until you sign the marriage certificate and then you meet a sinister ruthless shell of a man that was lurking there all the time. I actually had a guy propose such to me- though he actually was a nice guy but l politely declined. I don't think he was a Dr Jekyll- Mr Hyde, but then what do l know.

But then here is the complication- I was a life and career coach, and office manager for my husband's business. He did clean the toilet. We stepped out of our assigned roles and did what we had to as partners to really be a successful business. He went on to become medical director. So perhaps gender fluid roles are a suggestion however in the end, you need step up your game and help promote your union. And not necessarily being married has anything to do with it. I guess l was more driven but l never nagged him. I supported him because l believed in him.

 

[Pats]

Well, I dated a guy like the first and he gave me the most romantic night of my life. I'll always remember him for that night and how good it felt that night. He knew I was wearing a black dress, so he picked me up in a black mustang. He made me wait for him to open my door to get out and gave me an ankle bracelet, which he placed on my ankle before I got out of the car. He had roses delivered to me at my job the next day with a note. It was all a ''wow!". I didn't want to marry him, but I'll certainly always remember him and that date night. So if you always want to be remembered, do it. If you want marriage, be yourself.

Although, I do like some extra effort for me. My second husband - the love of my life that I would still be with if I hadn't found out he was gay - did treat me like a lady. He didn't allow other guys to talk leud around me. When it was super cold, he'd actually get out of bed and go out and start my car so it'd warm up before I had to get in it. He always did little things for me. Actually, he still does when I see him. And the thing is - he doesn't treat all women this way, just me and I like my kids to see that. He will defend me no matter what or whether he agrees or not and that's how you should treat a spouse - a little more special than you treat others.

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

Totally agree with this well written and expressed viewpoint. I see many older men suggest to me l should be happy to have a roof over my head in exchange for housecleaning, boring bedroom exercises, and food. Because in their eyes ,that's all l am good for now that l have reached a certain age. So to be a gentleman is a farce until you sign the marriage certificate and then you meet a sinister ruthless shell of a man that was lurking there all the time. I actually had a guy propose such to me- though he actually was a nice guy but l politely declined. I don't think he was a Dr Jekyll- Mr Hyde, but then what do l know.

My spouse has pointed out to me that after a certain age women are not noticed. That happens to men also. I find that sad because friendship at any age is valuable. I enjoy seeing happy single women my age or older in my bike and ski clubs. One teaches downhill in the Retired, Not Tired, group. They are inspirations to me. Were I single now I would have no qualms about a relationship based on equality with a woman my age. I like a partner, not a housekeeper.

I have seen games by both sexes, some girls/women professing interests in things that their SO enjoys which evaporates upon marriage. But I also have had object lessons in real partnerships. I had an Aunt and Uncle who were very practical and I saw as they built five houses together over the years. They supported each other and did a lot of outside-the-box-thinking. I learned a lot about relationships paying attention to them.

 

[1ForAll]

Can you prove every conservative thinks like that?

I do not need to prove anything. I speak in a rational, balanced way.

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

Can you prove every conservative thinks like that?

I probably could not, though I have noticed such archaic behavior in politically conservative, religiously fundamentalist, members of my extended family. I worry about the children being indoctrinated into those ideas.

 

[Streetwise]

I do not need to prove anything. I speak in a rational, balanced way.

Doesn't sound rational or balanced just narrow minded

 

[Streetwise]

I probably could not, though I have noticed such archaic behavior in politically conservative, religiously fundamentalist, members of my extended family. I worry about the children being indoctrinated into those ideas.

That sounds like a percentage of fundamentalist atheists also

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

That sounds like a percentage of fundamentalist atheists also

In my estimation, athiests, agnostics and Unitarians are some of the most progressive people I have encountered.

 

[Aspychata]

Well, I dated a guy like the first and he gave me the most romantic night of my life. I'll always remember him for that night and how good it felt that night. He knew I was wearing a black dress, so he picked me up in a black mustang. He made me wait for him to open my door to get out and gave me an ankle bracelet, which he placed on my ankle before I got out of the car. He had roses delivered to me at my job the next day with a note. It was all a ''wow!". I didn't want to marry him, but I'll certainly always remember him and that date night. So if you always want to be remembered, do it. If you want marriage, be yourself.

Although, I do like some extra effort for me. My second husband - the love of my life that I would still be with if I hadn't found out he was gay - did treat me like a lady. He didn't allow other guys to talk leud around me. When it was super cold, he'd actually get out of bed and go out and start my car so it'd warm up before I had to get in it. He always did little things for me. Actually, he still does when I see him. And the thing is - he doesn't treat all women this way, just me and I like my kids to see that. He will defend me no matter what or whether he agrees or not and that's how you should treat a spouse - a little more special than you treat others.

Very fancy. If l had met guys like that l would write romance novels for all the woman that aren't so lucky for romance. Those high quality novelists make excellent money. My romance novel would be more like business course. Lol

 

[Streetwise]

In my estimation, athiests, agnostics and Unitarians are some of the most progressive people I have encountered.

And some atheists ARENT

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

And some atheists ARENT

Well, people are diverse, aren't we? We are all athiests here. I only choose to believe in one less god than you.

 

[1ForAll]

Doesn't sound rational or balanced just narrow minded

Thanks. That's a compliment coming from you, who is continuously attacking Autistic guys with your generalizations.

 

[Kalinychta]

@Forest Cat You seem like the type of person who is respectful and kind to everyone, not just women.

 

[Kalinychta]

I don't know anything anymore, after reading that article and this thread I just don't know. I doubt things I thought I knew. I thought I was respectful to people.

I think maybe you were misinterpreting things just a bit. To me, there’s an enormous difference between a gentleman and a man who is simply kind and respectful, not just to women but to everyone. And women should no more expect special treatment from men than men should from women. I open doors for men all the time, for instance—not because they’re men, but because they’re people. That’s the difference. I think most women just want to be seen as people, not females.

 

[Forest Cat]

To me, there’s an enormous difference between a gentleman and a man who is simply kind and respectful, not just to women but to everyone. And women should no more expect special treatment from men than men should from women. I open doors for men all the time, for instance—not because they’re men, but because they’re people. That’s the difference. I think most women just want to be seen as people, not females.

Oh, I see. You sort think of a gentleman as a man who is only nice to women. I might have missed or misinterpeted something.

 

[Kalinychta]

Oh, I see. You sort think of a gentleman as a man who is only nice to women. I might have missed or misinterpeted something. And I also learned things when I was a kid that might not be right now. We young boys learned to treat girls better than boys, because they were better in some ways.

Exactly. And what I wrote about gentleman was in response to the first woman’s article. There was a very specific reason for gentlemanly behavior back when women had so little control over their lives. Kind of like people who spoil and placate their children with toys so that they don’t have to be parents who give their kids love and attention - and the kids mistake the toys for love.

Re: what you said before about boys being taught not to hit girls: that’s very good advice that I don’t think actually has anything to do with being nice to girls. No one should be hitting anyone, but boys should specifically be taught not to hit girls. If a boy hits another boy, it might hurt, but if a boy hits a girl, he could easily really hurt her or even kill her. There are definite physical differences there.

 

[Bolletje]

That’s the difference. I think most women just want to be seen as people, not females.

I couldn’t agree more with this. I don’t want to be treated as an exotic foreign species or a delicate little flower. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth because it often feels disingenuous and rehearsed.

I think it’s a shame when people define me by what I presumably have in my pants rather than by what kind of person I am. Because anyone that has spoken to me for more than a minute realizes I’m very far from delicate and I am independent and self-sufficient. My gender is one of the least interesting things about me, I feel.

 

[PinkPhilodendron]

I enjoy it when men hold the door for me, when I get flowers. I also hold the door for men, and they enjoy it too.
I definitely expect my partner to do the heavy lifting (if he is stronger - as then it is easier for him) and I expect him to notice when I struggle and then to help me. All those things I would do for him too if I knew he needed or enjoyed something of course.

I think those are signs that your partner finds you valuable as they observe you and react on things you might need before you ask for them. And those things that you need can be different for women and men. So I do not see the article as sexist or too oldfashioned or anything like that.
I don't care what gentlemen meant in the past, but I care how I am being treated these days. And when a man or a possible partner doesn't do certain things I will still respect him, but I will not like him that much and the relationship will include less caring.

And yes, for me it makes a difference if this treatment comes from a man or a woman.

 

[Forest Cat]

I enjoy it when men hold the door for me, when I get flowers. I also hold the door for men, and they enjoy it too.
I definitely expect my partner to do the heavy lifting (if he is stronger - as then it is easier for him) and I expect him to notice when I struggle and then to help me.

That's so nice to hear My faith in the world is restored, it's ok to give flowers, lift things and hold doors. I have always liked to do things like that but I read things that made me doubt it.