Autism/Asperger's or Narcissistic Personality?

[OkRad]

This is a very good article for those of you who ever laid in bed torturing yourself, wondering, "Am I just a Narcissist?!" This article shows how absurd it is to clump Aspies/Auties with NPD. Bottom line: We care! They don't.

My Aspergers Child: Is it Asperger’s or Narcissism or Both?

 

[AvocadoSmoothie]

I've met 2 aspies with strong narcissistic traits (both men in thier late 20s and 30s), my dad happens to be one as well... They seem to have alot in common:
1) high IQ... Very intelligent.
2) dysfunctional family background, or was abused as a child...eg. one parent coddled them too much, and the other was either overly tough or completely neglectful or absent.
3) are quite successful in their careers... ie. Financially independant.
4) are active in their communities because they desire acceptance and want to blend in... At the same time they have no genuine friends and have deep seated trust issues and paranoia when it comes to people. Romantic relationships are a mess... They couple up for the sake of blending in and for the sex (or to have kids), but the partnership/marriage (usually starts out intensely, they move fast) is a cold one. Their partner will most likely be a co-dependant, someone vulnerable with low self esteem.
5) are really just 'angry children' on the inside, emotionally immature and carries within them some form of bigoted belief. People they live with will see them as eccentric, insufferable, passive aggressive, demanding, controlling, and at the same time extremely childish in their mannerisms. Like psychotic Peter Pans. Their public persona is that of a kind or friendly eccentric though, decent, mild-mannered.

Anyone of you encountered this type?
From what I've seen, the difference between the narc and the aspie narc is that the aspie narc will have his aspie-related eccentricities (eg. social awkwardness, which he will learn to use to his advantage with time, it helps him appear genuine and innocent) and the regular narc is alot more skilled socially, very smooth. The aspie narc uses narcissism as a coping mechanism, whilst a regular narc is a natural.

Thoughts?

 

[Mia]

This a general DSM outline for narcissism:

Having an exaggerated sense of self-importance
Expecting to be recognized as superior even without achievements that warrant it
Exaggerating your achievements and talents
Being preoccupied with fantasies about success, power, brilliance, or the perfect mate
Believing that you are superior and can only be understood by or associate with equally special people
Requiring constant admiration
Having a sense of entitlement
Expecting special favors and unquestioning compliance with your expectations
Taking advantage of others to get what you want
Having an inability or unwillingness to recognize the needs and feelings of others
Being envious of others and believing others envy you
Behaving in an arrogant or haughty manner


The difference between someone who is truly narcissistic (true narcissism is rare) and someone with autism is that a person with NPD (narcissistic personality disorder) intentionally manipulates others to get what they want.
Whereas someone with autism does not intentionally do so. They are self-absorbed and have difficulty understanding another persons point of view. When they are made aware of another person's point of view and understand they change their focus.

People with NPD see others as tools to achieve their own goals, Aspies don't do that in my experience. I've never heard of or known an aspie narc, they don't exist on the autism spectrum.

There are people who do have narcissistic traits, but that does not make them true narcissists. There are people with personality disorders, what you describe seems much more like a personality disorder.

 

[Ambi]

I've met 2 aspies with strong narcissistic traits (both men in thier late 20s and 30s), my dad happens to be one as well... They seem to have alot in common:
1) high IQ... Very intelligent.
2) dysfunctional family background, or was abused as a child...eg. one parent coddled them too much, and the other was either overly tough or completely neglectful or absent.
3) are quite successful in their careers... ie. Financially independant.
4) are active in their communities because they desire acceptance and want to blend in... At the same time they have no genuine friends and have deep seated trust issues and paranoia when it comes to people. Romantic relationships are a mess... They couple up for the sake of blending in and for the sex (or to have kids), but the partnership/marriage (usually starts out intensely, they move fast) is a cold one. Their partner will most likely be a co-dependant, someone vulnerable with low self esteem.
5) are really just 'angry children' on the inside, emotionally immature and carries within them some form of bigoted belief. People they live with will see them as eccentric, insufferable, passive aggressive, demanding, controlling, and at the same time extremely childish in their mannerisms. Like psychotic Peter Pans. Their public persona is that of a kind or friendly eccentric though, decent, mild-mannered.

Anyone of you encountered this type?
From what I've seen, the difference between the narc and the aspie narc is that the aspie narc will have his aspie-related eccentricities (eg. social awkwardness, which he will learn to use to his advantage with time, it helps him appear genuine and innocent) and the regular narc is alot more skilled socially, very smooth. The aspie narc uses narcissism as a coping mechanism, whilst a regular narc is a natural.

Thoughts?

My dad is like this! Though I have wondered if he is on the spectrum (I think he likely is) there is definitely something else going on, like a personality disorder. We are estranged because he is too controlling and manipulative to deal with.

 

[Judge]

I do know there are numerous links online relative to confusion and misdiagnosis in discerning narcissism from Asperger's Syndrome. Such as: Narcissism or Aspergers: How Would You Diagnose These Cases?

 

[AvocadoSmoothie]

Hi Mia thanks for your reply.
It's still very possible for an aspie to develop attitudes and views that are in line with those afflicted with NPD though. It has to do with how they were raised, as well as their level of intelligence. People with difficult childhoods (whether NT or Aspie) are prone to developing some form of personality disorder anyway. If an 'emotionally scarred' aspie were to have a personality disorder, covert or overt narcissism would fit like a glove, especially for the more 'successful' ones or those who have spent their lives struggling for acceptance. And there are aspies with other types of personality disorders and comorbid conditions ofcourse. It is very much a coping mechanism for the most part, though it bleeds into their personal lives and can cause alot of problems...for others, but also for themselves in the long term.

I've been doing some research on NPD and I feel like I do have covert narcissistic traits in addition to being an Aspie. I wouldn't say that I am one because I hate the thought of hurting people and I feel others' pain deeply (eventhough I respond poorly to it). And I have been attracting those who are like myself and worse....

 

[AvocadoSmoothie]

I do know there are numerous links online relative to confusion and misdiagnosis in discerning narcissism from Asperger's Syndrome. Such as: Narcissism or Aspergers: How Would You Diagnose These Cases?

I still say it's possible to be both.
Depends on how they were raised.
My dad is definitely an aspie... Autism runs in our family. I have a brother with moderate-severe autism and 2 cousins who are also on the spectrum. My grandfather, like my father was very eccentric as well. But yeah, he had extreme narcissistic traits at the height of his career and was rarely around, preferring to isolate himself and letting my mom deal with domestic stuff and the children's well being. When he was around the kids he would be very controlling and strict...rarely displaying affection. But he is now meek and sweet, child-like in his old age. Sensitive now too, he tears up easily and has a pet cat he sleeps with. I imagine a true narc would stay a narc till the day he dies...my dad just reverted back to being a child-like aspie.

 

[AvocadoSmoothie]

My dad is like this! Though I have wondered if he is on the spectrum (I think he likely is) there is definitely something else going on, like a personality disorder. We are estranged because he is too controlling and manipulative to deal with.

Seems to be common for those coming from severely strict religious/cultural backgrounds. My grandfather was very strict, unaffectionate, and I feel that resulted in my dad developing some traits (eventhough my dad is not religious himself), both of the narcissistic aspies I knew also had strict dysfunctional parents, one from a strict cultural background (middle eastern) and the other from a very strict religious background (though like my dad, he is not himself religious, so he's like a younger version of my dad).

 

[OlLiE]

i recognise a number of traits you mention in myself,
but do not necessarily agree with the motivation behind them:

Me:
1) high IQ - yes
2) dysfunctional family background - yes
3) financially independent - yes
4)
* are active in their communities because they desire acceptance and want to blend in -no
* cold relationship - some people may call it that, i am inherently less emotional than my partner but express my affection in different ways, that doesn't make it a 'cold' relationship, we accept each other as we are - she is into meditation and often compares my emotional distant/cold way of dealing with life as something typical of those that lead the meditations - i am honest and authentic in what i say and do - quality over quantity of affection - we are happy and couldn't care less how other people label our relationship
* co-dependant, someone vulnerable with low self esteem - some people feel safe around stable, rational people that don't go through booms and busts - and need that feeling of safety - opposites attract - personally i find using negative and judging words like 'co-dependant', 'low self esteem' quite insulting, condescending and judging if not used in an accurate situation - it's and issue of mutual respect and respecting each other's needs and boundaries - i find it a bit inconsistent that someone on the spectrum would be judging of other people's personalities and implying that they are weak because of who they are
5) eccentric, demanding, passive aggressive, controlling: yes BUT
all these words you use are judgements by one person of another,
i.e. you have to take into account the personality and sensibilities of the person who is saying them and expressing a judgement of another person's personalities:
* eccentric: people that just follow the herd because it is in their benefit will easily call someone that is a freethinker and that is willing to think outside of the box: eccentric, unreasonable, demanding, not a group player etc
* controlling: some people are not too bright and when they suggest or demand something it is often not 'rational' nor 'reasonable', it is easy for these types of people to call the person that isn't acquiescing to their demands 'controlling' or '(passive) aggressive'
* manipulative: i am on the spectrum and don't spontaneously see or understand emotional situations - i have constructed an artificial framework to recognise situations and know what it is expected of me - it is a coping mechanism but i assume some people could experience it as manipulative - although i would suggest that emotionally intelligent people are far more manipulative - everybody recognises the classic 'if you love me, the you will do this for me' or parents using guilt and disappointment to adjust a child's behaviour etc
* childish: to me 'childish' in essence is acting on your survival instincts without restraint: hunger or need > feed me now/cry/tantrum, feel threatened > fight/flight, want attention > cry: i am on the spectrum and my senses are highly sensitive, pe going out to a crowded restaurant is an assault on my senses, i can't expect my partner to eat in 5 mins so i try to tolerate it, at one point though i just have to go, i cannot hide my distress and there is no negotiation - i can understand that some people perceive it as a childish reaction, but that is more a indictment of their lack of understanding and compassion rather than a fault of mine, it's like blaming a cripple for being upset that he's being forced to stand up for too long, i am learning now how to communicate my limitations to people so that we can react to them before i ht the point of no return, but certainly an understanding and compassionate person would understand that i find it embarrassing to continually have to justify my weaknesses and failings to people
* bigoted beliefs: i have had to construct a model for myself in order to 'survive' in society, it started out quite simple and based on assumptions, but i evolve and fine tune it as i gain experiences, i cling to it even if it even though it is overly simplistic, because i am lost otherwise, i can see that some people may see this as being bigoted, but again, i would prefer that those close to me would make the effort to understand me, and point out where i am wrong so i can learn, rather than call me a bigot, although because i cling to it i admit to being defensive about my beliefs

So i would generally say that while the 'judgements' you list may be signs of narcissism, they may also be the observations of someone who makes no effort, or is too selfish or self absorbed to make the effort to understand what may be the underlying causes that are triggering these outward manifestations.

When one person is negatively judging another's personality negatively, one needs to consider the possibility that it is a projection of their own frustrations and weaknesses onto another's stronger personality.

 

[Fitzo]

My mother is a narcissist and I had a partner who also was one. Mia's list definitely applies to both of them.
The only other things I would add are that they always view everything through the prism of " how does this reflect on me or how can I make this about me"?
As parents they often have a "golden child" who pretty much can do no wrong while the other child/ children can do nothing right. In saying that though they will happily bask in the glory of their child/children's achievements in front of others even though they wouldn't give them any praise themselves or even appear to notice those achievements. I know it is certainly possible for narcissists to also have ASD because my psych asked me if I thought my mother had it. I'm sure she doesn't but I think my father probably did and I always thought their very volatile relationship was also codependent.
My mother is now 93 and is far from a sweet old lady, but her narcissism has softened a little in her relationship with me. Experts believe that people with personality disorders tend to become less aggressive with age, but I'm not sure if that's true. In my mother's case she probably treats me a little better than she used to because she is dependent on me these days and she knows she won't get what she wants otherwise. She is in hospital at the moment but she is still terrorising the nursing staff like she's in a hotel and should be waited on hand and foot.
In my experience narcs in jobs or business can be very successful, but usually crash and burn eventually because they can never see that enough is enough. They always have to push the envelope a little bit further and end up going too far. Hope this gives you some clarity. Am happy to answer specific questions if you have them.

 

[AvocadoSmoothie]

i recognise a number of traits you mention in myself,
but do not necessarily agree with the motivation behind them:

Me:
1) high IQ - yes
2) dysfunctional family background - yes
3) financially independent - yes
4)
* are active in their communities because they desire acceptance and want to blend in -no
* cold relationship - some people may call it that, i am inherently less emotional than my partner but express my affection in different ways, that doesn't make it a 'cold' relationship, we accept each other as we are - she is into meditation and often compares my emotional distant/cold way of dealing with life as something typical of those that lead the meditations - i am honest and authentic in what i say and do - quality over quantity of affection - we are happy and couldn't care less how other people label our relationship
* co-dependant, someone vulnerable with low self esteem - some people feel safe around stable, rational people that don't go through booms and busts - and need that feeling of safety - opposites attract - personally i find using negative and judging words like 'co-dependant', 'low self esteem' quite insulting, condescending and judging if not used in an accurate situation - it's and issue of mutual respect and respecting each other's needs and boundaries - i find it a bit inconsistent that someone on the spectrum would be judging of other people's personalities and implying that they are weak because of who they are
5) eccentric, demanding, passive aggressive, controlling: yes BUT
all these words you use are judgements by one person of another,
i.e. you have to take into account the personality and sensibilities of the person who is saying them and expressing a judgement of another person's personalities:
* eccentric: people that just follow the herd because it is in their benefit will easily call someone that is a freethinker and that is willing to think outside of the box: eccentric, unreasonable, demanding, not a group player etc
* controlling: some people are not too bright and when they suggest or demand something it is often not 'rational' nor 'reasonable', it is easy for these types of people to call the person that isn't acquiescing to their demands 'controlling' or '(passive) aggressive'
* manipulative: i am on the spectrum and don't spontaneously see or understand emotional situations - i have constructed an artificial framework to recognise situations and know what it is expected of me - it is a coping mechanism but i assume some people could experience it as manipulative - although i would suggest that emotionally intelligent people are far more manipulative - everybody recognises the classic 'if you love me, the you will do this for me' or parents using guilt and disappointment to adjust a child's behaviour etc
* childish: to me 'childish' in essence is acting on your survival instincts without restraint: hunger or need > feed me now/cry/tantrum, feel threatened > fight/flight, want attention > cry: i am on the spectrum and my senses are highly sensitive, pe going out to a crowded restaurant is an assault on my senses, i can't expect my partner to eat in 5 mins so i try to tolerate it, at one point though i just have to go, i cannot hide my distress and there is no negotiation - i can understand that some people perceive it as a childish reaction, but that is more a indictment of their lack of understanding and compassion rather than a fault of mine, it's like blaming a cripple for being upset that he's being forced to stand up for too long, i am learning now how to communicate my limitations to people so that we can react to them before i ht the point of no return, but certainly an understanding and compassionate person would understand that i find it embarrassing to continually have to justify my weaknesses and failings to people
* bigoted beliefs: i have had to construct a model for myself in order to 'survive' in society, it started out quite simple and based on assumptions, but i evolve and fine tune it as i gain experiences, i cling to it even if it even though it is overly simplistic, because i am lost otherwise, i can see that some people may see this as being bigoted, but again, i would prefer that those close to me would make the effort to understand me, and point out where i am wrong so i can learn, rather than call me a bigot, although because i cling to it i admit to being defensive about my beliefs

So i would generally say that while the 'judgements' you list may be signs of narcissism, they may also be the observations of someone who makes no effort, or is too selfish or self absorbed to make the effort to understand what may be the underlying causes that are triggering these outward manifestations.

When one person is negatively judging another's personality negatively, one needs to consider the possibility that it is a projection of their own frustrations and weaknesses onto another's stronger personality.

I'm actually all the above points I've stated in my original post as well. And I agree with and can relate to most of what you've written. If I were judging anyone, I'd be judging myself first.

Why do you have to be so defensive in your last paragraph though? It's not negative judgement from my pov, I actually want to be self aware so I can maintain a healthy long-term relationship, as of now I am incapable of intimacy and I break things off with people before it gets serious. If I was a guy or a lesbian, I'd probably be with a co-dependant woman, but being straight (and attracted only to stereotypical masculine types), co-dependent men turn me off extremely, and I have dated a couple of those. This is the one area in my life that I have been failing at.

And yes, I end up meeting men who are just like myself, and worse. Always very intense, euphoric and memorable...but it always gets overwhelming and ends up exploding in our faces, with both of us trying to control or possess the other in some way. I am actually very well aware of the underlying causes and triggers... In myself as well as in those I deal with. The difference is I am actively trying to curb my negative traits, but they don't see any problem with theirs, so they blame others. That is not right! I don't want to hurt people, or myself in the long run. If I'm behaving like a dick, I want to be aware of that. I have not been on speaking terms with my younger sisters for 2 years, and I have blamed them for the longest time. I tell myself that they are too sensitive, too petty, too emotional etc. They may be all that, but I know that they have found my extreme bluntness and controlling ways intolerable back from when we were teens. I still tell myself I was doing all that for their own good, but I know now that I could've handled things better.

I mean, If you are happy where you are, good for you. I'm not.

 

[OlLiE]

i wasn't referring to you in my last paragraph
it was a general statement, hence 'when one', it is something that i had experienced
the statement in and of itself was a statement of fact, it's not because a fact may be unpleasant that it is therefore 'negative', facts are facts irrespective of how people internalise them emotionally, ultimately it was your choice to identify with the statement and take it personally, again, it was not meant that way and i apologise if it came over that way

i also am trying to improve myself, however improvement implies progression,
the point is you have to start somewhere, it just helps me to accept people's feedback and to grow when it comes from a place of understanding and acceptance of my shortcomings rather than using adjectives (controlling, etc) that imply judgement and disapproval, and imply malevolent intent on my part, because that is not who i am, it is sometimes just how i express myself and/or how people choose to interpret what i say

 

[OlLiE]

by the way, this is a topic that is quite near to my heart, because i have been called controlling, manipulative, been told that my reactions were exaggerated and childish etc
when it was never my intent to be those things, they were just the outward manifestation of not understanding social situations and emotions
as a child, to hear people near to me says these things was quite hurtful, i was just being me

i have always struggled to try and understand myself, my actions and why i didn't fit in
i am in my forties now and i got my diagnosis a few years ago,
it helped relieve an immense amount of guilt i felt as i was painfully aware of my failings and my isolation, which have made my personal and professional life much more difficult
now i try to use this energy to learn and improve myself

i am trying to accept what i can't change and work on what i can,
from personal experience i learn more if someone says that understand certain things and try to work with me understand and improve rather than make me feel more badly about what i already feel badly about

 

[AvocadoSmoothie]

by the way, this is a topic that is quite near to my heart, because i have been called controlling, manipulative, been told that my reactions were exaggerated and childish etc
when it was never my intent to be those things, they were just the outward manifestation of not understanding social situations and emotions
as a child, to hear people near to me says these things was quite hurtful, i was just being me

This is so ME. I could have written that paragraph. I have been called those very things by people I am closest to. I would add selfish and egoistic to mine. And yes, I used to throw tantrums when things don't go according to plan, so I was being a 'brat'. My sisters, a close friend, my mom, an ex (eventhough he was also the same, worse even, yet its not okay when I behave the way he does). When I would try to be nice and 'normal' I got called fake and weird.
I understand what it feels like to be carrying around guilt...the guilt that I have in me have caused me to overcompensate by being overly nice and generous towards others. Ofcourse what usually happens is I get taken advantage of in some way. When I don't get taken advantage of and the person develops a close relationship with me (whether platonic, proffessional or romantic), that person ends up seeing my 'autistic side' sooner or later and it either creeps them out, or (very, very rarely) actually empathize with me. I admit I end up cutting off most people and end up trying to meet new ones, in the hopes that 'things will be different, I will be different, they will different'. Ofcourse its hardly ever that different. I mean, I have seen myself making some small improvements. It is frustrating.

We are on the same boat! Feel free to vent in this thread. I need the support for sure, I have isolated myself for years, and I don't want to do that anymore... It's been very self destructive.

Btw, what is it about us that gets us accused of being manipulative? I always try to appeal to people's self interest when I need them to do something for me, but I'm never deceptive about it and I don't go back on my word. I'm not someone who ask for 'favors' out of friendship or for some sentimental reason, it is just not me, I prefer a fair and tangible 'give and take', you do this for me and I do that, clearly outlined from the start... Are you the same way? Maybe this is why I get called manipulative?

 

[Ambi]

Seems to be common for those coming from severely strict religious/cultural backgrounds. My grandfather was very strict, unaffectionate, and I feel that resulted in my dad developing some traits (eventhough my dad is not religious himself), both of the narcissistic aspies I knew also had strict dysfunctional parents, one from a strict cultural background (middle eastern) and the other from a very strict religious background (though like my dad, he is not himself religious, so he's like a younger version of my dad).

Yeah - my dad is from a very strict cultural background, and his family was totally dysfunctional. There may have even been incest with his mom.

 

[OkRad]

Many aspies are know are totally opposite, feeling like worse than everyone else, wanting people to leave them alone because they were hurt. Narci's want people around to use them and abuse them and get stuff from them.

I guess an aspi could be narci, but I dont see how.

Let me just say I go so far OUT OF MY WAY TO NOT MANIPULATE anyone that I won't even wear makeup because I would not want anyone to think I am something I am not. That is just one example. I go overboard on trying never to lead people into any untruths whatsoever.

PSS: Let me also add that many people wear makeup because it makes them feel MORE like who they are, so I am not against makeup . For me, it's fake, that is all.

 

[WereBear]

true narcissism is rare

That is what they say, but I doubt it. For instance, narcissism taken to its nature end is sociopathy; how can anyone tell the difference at that point?

And abusive men don't want to change; their anger and threats work for them. They enjoy oppressing people, even whole classes of people, because; once again, this works for them. They don't feel empathy and don't care they are lonely; they think the whole world is like this.

 

[Judge]

I still say it's possible to be both.

No question about that the possibility of such a thing. Where it could be a simple case of comorbidity. Narcissism being a secondary condition apart from one having a form of autism.

I'm just pointing out that narcissism can and is sometimes mistaken for ASD. I had someone once imply such a thing about myself, which I thought was laughable under the circumstances. But it was merely someone online in another forum who didn't like me while they really didn't even know me. For some such words are just "weapons".

 

[Bella Pines]

The difference between someone who is truly narcissistic (true narcissism is rare) and someone with autism is that a person with NPD (narcissistic personality disorder) intentionally manipulates others to get what they want. Whereas someone with autism does not intentionally do so. They are self-absorbed and have difficulty understanding another persons point of view. When they are made aware of another person's point of view and understand they change their focus.

People with NPD see others as tools to achieve their own goals, Aspies don't do that in my experience. I've never heard of or known an aspie narc, they don't exist on the autism spectrum.

This is fascinating and I think spot on.

@AvocadoSmoothie, sometimes when I talk, my husband quotes a comedy program called Blackadder (to my intense annoyance every time) and says "if there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now".

So yes, I'm pure aspie, pretty much every symptom but I do check all your 5 criteria. Though I did kind of get over the angry child and desire for acceptance many years ago.

And I've been accused of being narcissistic too, which I always wondered about.

But reading the points made by @Mia makes perfect sense. Yes there is overlap in the basic presentation but really I do not intentionally manipulate people at all, I find that behaviour insidious. If people clearly explain their point of view and it makes sense to me, I will change my opinion, even if I have been stubbornly clinging to it for years. Inside, I'm not a narcissist, I'm absorbed or so incredibly focussed on what I am doing to the exclusion of everything else.

I don't use people as tools, in fact, most of the time I don't even notice other people are even there.

So I would agree that aspergers can present as npd, but only in a superficial way. The disorders are very different at the core and therefore I would (in a completely medically untrained manner...) say that it would be incredibly rare, if not impossible to have an aspie with npd.

 

[Mathalamus]

i do not have narcissistic personality disorder., but i am blatantly quite arrogant. arrogant enough to be mistaken to have a NPD. and i think it happened at least once.

unlike many other arrogant people ive met, mine is backed up only by my realistic capabilities at the moment. the fact that it happens to be generally above normal just means i am quite capable in those areas.

so, basically, i am that kind of person. i sometimes try to downplay it, because arrogance is seen as wrong, or i am not actually capable of it, usually because of laziness, but, its still there.