Autism and discipline

[Catalyst]

I was a difficult child, but that was mostly the result from a chaotic environment. Autistic children need a structured environment that is sensory sensitive much of the time. If he's not overwhelmed by what's going on, he should be fine, and able to be a disciplined youth. Depending on the level of autism, and how well they understand you, many autistic children can be disciplined the same as a neurotypical child. But this discipline needs to be consistent. This is true of any child, but as I mentioned before, autistic children need a structured environment with rules and routines. If the rules and subsequent punishments keep changing, you wind up with a more unruly child.

 

[TheFreeCat]

Well I would say allowing him to ignore what he is told, the throwing of mini-tantrum if told he can’t do what he wants. He does this with my wife, but not me.

I would be afraid of you, too. Misinterpreting sensory overload for "temper tantrums," thinking he just wants to do what he wants when really entering into the world hurts....you are painting him out to be a brat.

You do frighten me. If you don't even know what NT is, you cannot possibly understand the private, intense, beautiful, mysterious, gifted, extremely sensitive world he lives in and language he speaks. He will never open up to you and neither would I.

 

[Fino]

Interesting, so what you are saying is that you have never been one to accept rules, unless you can see and understand why the rule is in place, or benefits you?
Has that caused many problems in life?
Your average adult in the workplace will follow many rules they don’t agree with or see the benefit of in their work history, did your unwillingness to accept rules you disagree with ever cost you problems?

I don't intend to speak for anyone else, although it could be the same for them, but I am just as Autistimatic described and it caused some problems with school where the teachers are condescending, often stupid, and often not sure why the rule is there either, but when it comes to work, I believe, "Follow this rule or you're fired," would constitute a logical reason for following said rule. I've had minor, mostly playful, arguments in workplaces, but never to any serious point.

 

[TheFreeCat]

All children, autistic or not, are incredibly efficient test engines. They are always testing the boundaries. They find out exactly what works to get them what they want in every environment and adapt their behavior accordingly. They don't need to be taught to do this and they aren't being 'manipulative' when they do it - they're just learning.

Every interaction is either a reward or punishment and will either reinforce or weaken the neural pathways that led to the behavior in question. If you want them to change their outputs, you need to change their inputs.

My children are aware of this to the degree that their most common complaint about me to their mom is "Mooom, Dad's being a bad example!" Usually they're right. But I change my behavior after that. Why? Because I also am an incredibly efficient test engine.

With all due respect, I must disagree. It depends on the level of disconnectedness. Some autistics are as disconnected as someone with schizophrenia. (This is why in the past, many with austism where labeled as schizophrenic).

You cannot beat or cajole or teach or manipulate or use any amount of behaviour modification on someone who is severely disconnected.

When I was young, I was severally disconnected. Attempts to discipline me did end up in the discipliner getting very angry and I was abused on many occasions.

I was very capable of being "good," if I had not been forced into situations I did not understand where people demanded WAY more of me than I was capable.

The trouble arises when NO ONE can assess how capable we are, but THE PERSON WITH AUTISM -----and we are routinely not trusted.

If I say I am overwhelmed and cannot make the bed right now, the smirk sets in, the attitude the OP displayed in all its unsettling glory. He KNOWS the kid is capable and so do half the posters....because THEY WERE.

Well I was not, and I defend the little ones who cannot see it, are not being "bad," are totally overwhelmed just having to get out of bed and face music and sounds and cold and heat and people demanding and food that hurts to eat and pain and smells and people touching them......all within the first 15 minutes of the day!!

And not even knowing others are not feeling this horror till many, long, horrible years have past, filled with abuse, demands, cruelty, hits, eye rolls, backs of the hands, slaps to the face, bullying, teasing, misunderstanding, social isolation, abuse in various forms.........

No wonder one of the major causes of death with those with autism is suicide.

I agree with @rollerskate . If home is not the safe place, well, no where else is going to be a kind and gentle place for an autistic.

 

[MikeMarkCA]

Have any examples of jobs autistic people excel at?

 

[Judge]

Have any examples of jobs autistic people excel at?

Do we fit any particular stereotype along such lines? No, not really.

Again, such considerations are based on individual abilities and one's traits and behaviors as to whether or not a particular job may work for them. Many of us may have a preference for work involving less social interactions, but work is work. You take what you can get. Especially when some of us may not be so adept in a job interview as others might be.

Within this community you'll find we're quite a diverse lot when it comes to work and what we may excel at.

We have a saying here. "If you've met one Aspie, then you've met one Aspie".

 

[Ylva]

With his grandmother he’ll ask for a bandage, where I’ll tell him “you are fine, you don’t need a bandage, my wife will get the first aid kit out and let him bandage where he perceives he is injured, and allows him to make a big deal over it.

Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but it actually sounds like your wife is trying to make a point. Maybe she feels that caring for children is her thing?

As far as the child raising question goes, an autistic child can take a "no". It won't work if he gets overwhelmed and freaks out or shuts down from it, but on the whole, boundaries are great and it's nice to know where they are. Really, it dissolves a ton of anxiety if you don't have to divine what is okay and not.

Have any examples of jobs autistic people excel at?

IT, engineering, math, others that uses a lot of system thinking and structures.

That's a bit of a stereotype, though. For all any of us knows, your grandkid's interests and talents lie in music, art, athletics. I knew one autistic woman whose autistic daughter wanted to work in sales, so everything seems possible.

 

[rollerskate]

With all due respect, I must disagree. It depends on the level of disconnectedness. Some autistics are as disconnected as someone with schizophrenia. (This is why in the past, many with austism where labeled as schizophrenic).

You cannot beat or cajole or teach or manipulate or use any amount of behaviour modification on someone who is severely disconnected.

When I was young, I was severally disconnected. Attempts to discipline me did end up in the discipliner getting very angry and I was abused on many occasions.

I was very capable of being "good," if I had not been forced into situations I did not understand where people demanded WAY more of me than I was capable.

The trouble arises when NO ONE can assess how capable we are, but THE PERSON WITH AUTISM -----and we are routinely not trusted.

If I say I am overwhelmed and cannot make the bed right now, the smirk sets in, the attitude the OP displayed in all its unsettling glory. He KNOWS the kid is capable and so do half the posters....because THEY WERE.

Well I was not, and I defend the little ones who cannot see it, are not being "bad," are totally overwhelmed just having to get out of bed and face music and sounds and cold and heat and people demanding and food that hurts to eat and pain and smells and people touching them......all within the first 15 minutes of the day!!

And not even knowing others are not feeling this horror till many, long, horrible years have past, filled with abuse, demands, cruelty, hits, eye rolls, backs of the hands, slaps to the face, bullying, teasing, misunderstanding, social isolation, abuse in various forms.........

No wonder one of the major causes of death with those with autism is suicide.

I agree with @rollerskate . If home is not the safe place, well, no where else is going to be a kind and gentle place for an autistic.

With all due respect, my son has autism, ADHD, and suspected schizophrenia. He originally was also diagnosed with oppositional defiant disorder. Medication helped him gain more functioning, then the guidance I described was the only way to work through his behavioral issues. I'm sorry to hear you have never seen this possible, but well. Neither did the professionals. They constantly asked me how I did it, and that's how I did it. I learned to speak his language instead of expecting him to automatically speak mine. Now, going by the context of what was described here, I can only assume that the OP has a grandchild that is close to the level of my son, or less severe. It's up to the OP to clarify that though. He hasn't said anything about schizophrenic symptoms, though he may be dealing with some oppositional defiant disorder from switching back and forth with parenting styles, which creates instability.

 

[Progster]

All children, autistic or not, need to learn what is and isn't acceptable behaviour, and in order to become independent they must learn to take responsibility for their actions. In learning, they continually test to see where that boundary lies, and that means discipline and discussion. It is crucial that a child always understands what it is that they did wrong, and why. Explaining what the consequences of an action in both emotional and practical terms will help an autistic child to navigate the world and avoid pitfalls. A parent should never discipline without being prepared to back it up with an explanation and discussion, and should never arbitrarily discipline "because I say so". That's bad, authoritarian parenting.

 

[OlLiE]

discipline is easy,
if you apply it in the beginning, you can always soften later on it as the child earns your trust
if you don't apply it in the beginning, you will never be able to install it later on, and your child will likely not respect you

calling a child out on something should be because it has done something wrong,
if the child is high functioning and capable of understanding the difference between right and wrong acceptable and unacceptable behaviour, then i personally don't see what being on the spectrum has to do with anything at all

i never understand this concept of trying to reason with your children, they are called children for a reason, ie they are mainly instinct driven and self centred on survival and their own wants and desires, the point of raising a child is to teach it how to be aware of its environment and act appropriately in it

i have great respect for my parents, but it started as fear of being punished, only later with age did i come to understand why my parents did what they did the way they did, for better of for worse

i was raised very strictly, taught early on that my intelligence and strength can harm others if, that i must control them and learn to understand how my behaviour impacts others and at least try to minimise negative impact on others

 

[Autistamatic]

Interesting, so what you are saying is that you have never been one to accept rules, unless you can see and understand why the rule is in place, or benefits you?
Has that caused many problems in life?
Your average adult in the workplace will follow many rules they don’t agree with or see the benefit of in their work history, did your unwillingness to accept rules you disagree with ever cost you problems?

Have any examples of jobs autistic people excel at?

I'll address both your questions at once.

The question is not so much one of which jobs are best suited to an autistic person, but which employers are forward thinking enough to realise that the same courtesies that should be afforded to autistic people actually benefit everyone.
Blind obedience is not loyalty or good behaviour, it is the expectation of dictators. The worst employers are ones who expect their employees to "do as they are told because I say so" or expect them to engage in illogical or counter intuitive behaviour "because it's obvious" even when they are asked to explain.
The best employers keep all their staff informed of what is happening and why - not just the usual lip service of newsletters, mission statements and occasional management presentations, but actually engaging with and listening to the people on the front line who really make the money.
A good employer will be sensitive to the needs of all their employees, whether it be someone with a physical limitation, a woman who has a very difficult time every month, parental responsibilities, people with health concerns or the sensory and communication needs of an autistic employee. Staff who are well looked after are happier, are less prone to absenteeism, suffer less mental illness, are more productive and more loyal to the company.
I have worked for both good and bad employers and that is without any of them knowing I was autistic. I masked well enough that it never became questioned, plus for the first half of my working life people didn't even know we existed. The only employer I did tell - well that's a painful story.
"Do as I say, not as I do" has never gone down well with anyone on or off the spectrum. Rules are necessary and many autistic people live their lives by rules they have learned as they have grown. Many of us couldn't communicate with the NT world at all without our internal rule-books. Those rules are based on the internal logic of the system. If there is contradiction to logic or logic is abandoned then it can lead to our brains simply going "bzzzzzzz - does not compute" like a scene from a cheesy 60s sci-fi episode leading to a meltdown.
Unfortunately at this present time the bad employers outnumber the good ones. Testament to this is that less than 1 in 5 autistic people who can work are in work. A significant number of those in work are self-employed or work in jobs where they can do so alone without frequent interruption.
It is my hope, and one which is widely shared, that by educating the NT population to better understand the autistic people they share the world with, to be able to meet us halfway rather than trying to mould us into something we are not, by the time your grandson is old enough to work, there will be more good employers and a kinder society for him to live in.

 

[George Newman]

MikeMarkCA. Welcome to the forum. As you can see your question is an important one and you have received many thoughts, opinions, and ideas.

I would recommend that you, your wife, and your daughter sit down together and talk thru these. Find consensus.

I applaud your willingness to understand better. I appreciate your desire to be the best for this kid. You will be a hero. Everyone of us needs a real hero in our lives.

Thank you.

 

[Crossbreed]

N T - neuro typical.

Having a common neurology; that is, developing as expected.

Once I understand it I adopt it. Telling me that something "just is" without an explanation gives me no incentive to change. I don't need rewards or punishment to direct my behaviour, just an understanding of why it's important.
I was like this when I was 5 years old and I'm still the same approaching 50. I know I'm far from alone in this too

When I was 6, I was doing something that I didn't realize was inappropriate.

My dad asked, "Do you want a spanking?"
I answered, "No..."
I remember thinking, "What a strange question to ask. Why would anybody WANT a spanking...!?"

@MikeMarkCA , one trait that we lack across the whole spectrum is called the "Theory of Mind." That is, we often do not see a situation from another person's perspective unless/until it is explained to us. This is particularly true when we are children. We can learn it as a skill as we age, but it is not intuitive to us. That is why an explanation is so important for us, at least, at first.

If you resort to punishment, first, rather than explanation, we learn that this world is a place of unpredictable violence and we grow increasingly anxious as a result.

If a child refuses to abide by those terms AFTER they clearly understand them, then it is rebellion (unless they are sleepy, sick, etc.).

 

[Ylva]

My dad asked, "Do you want a spanking?"
I answered, "No..."
I remember thinking, "What a strange question to ask. Why would anybody WANT a spanking...!?"

That sounds familiar.

My parents also used to "offer" me punishments with no explanation. Not only did it fail to teach me not to do whatever it is I was doing, it actually took the sting off the punishments when dealt. Clearly it wasn't such a big deal, right? Clearly it had nothing to do with anything I did.

 

[MikeMarkCA]

I would be afraid of you, too. Misinterpreting sensory overload for "temper tantrums," thinking he just wants to do what he wants when really entering into the world hurts....you are painting him out to be a brat.

You do frighten me. If you don't even know what NT is, you cannot possibly understand the private, intense, beautiful, mysterious, gifted, extremely sensitive world he lives in and language he speaks. He will never open up to you and neither would I.

Wow, a rather snotty response for somebody who has never met my grandson nor watched us interact. The fact I have never heard the term NT is a disqualifier? Wow, tough crowd.

 

[MikeMarkCA]

Having a common neurology; that is, developing as expected.

When I was 6, I was doing something that I didn't realize was inappropriate.

My dad asked, "Do you want a spanking?"
I answered, "No..."
I remember thinking, "What a strange question to ask. Why would anybody WANT a spanking...!?"

@MikeMarkCA , one trait that we lack across the whole spectrum is called the "Theory of Mind." That is, we often do not see a situation from another person's perspective unless/until it is explained to us. This is particularly true when we are children. We can learn it as a skill as we age, but it is not intuitive to us. That is why an explanation is so important for us, at least, at first.

If you resort to punishment, first, rather than explanation, we learn that this world is a place of unpredictable violence and we grow increasingly anxious as a result.

If a child refuses to abide by those terms AFTER they clearly understand them, then it is rebellion (unless they are sleepy, sick, etc.).

I see, thank you.

 

[TheFreeCat]

Wow, a rather snotty response for somebody who has never met my grandson nor watched us interact. The fact I have never heard the term NT is a disqualifier? Wow, tough crowd.

Even more scary, now.........Shudders. Runs.....Blocks.......

 

[Pats]

I was just talking to my daughter - tantrums, I refused to acknowledge, not giving any type of re-enforcement for attention and it would soon stop. But all children need to learn rules of conduct. My mom used to play along with the things my kids would do to get their way or get attention and they would continue those actions with her, but not me. So if they're taught that everyone is supposed to put up with the misbehavior - that's how they grow up. I'd try a calm approach first and when that doesn't work, get a little tougher. My oldest son started biting when he was about 2 and I'd hold him away from me where he couldn't reach to bite and after doing that a couple times he stopped. I often ran cross solution by accident. And as my kids got older I would tell them specific punishments for offenses - if you do this I will take away that. They'd do the this and be surprised when I took that away, but they had to know I meant what I said and they knew the consequences of their own actions.
Good luck, though - it's really hard getting past a gramma.

 

[TheFreeCat]

On second thought, I won't block you. This may be a good way to begin a dialogue.

Aside from emtionalism, my fear of you makes you think I am "snotty," why?

You and people like you DO scare me. DO I not have a right to feel that or to express that?

I do not need to see your interaction with your grandson because your words related what you felt. If you feel words are NOT a good barometer for my judgements, then by your own rules, you have no right to judge me for my words alone.

So let's start over.

You scare me because your written judgements seem to indicate many similarities that other NTs have toward many of us. You seem to have indicated that you are the only one with insights that even his own mother does not have.

Yes, to me you sound arrogant and emotional and lacking in understanding.

However, if logically you can explain to me how this is not true and how your words are actually not correct, I am open to your educating me, provided it is in a respectful and non-emotional manner.

 

[Nervous Rex]

Wow, a rather snotty response for somebody who has never met my grandson nor watched us interact. The fact I have never heard the term NT is a disqualifier? Wow, tough crowd.

@MikeMarkCA, on this forum we have a large variety of people with a lot of different experiences. Some mask their autistic tendencies and appear to fit in. Some have been misunderstood their entire lives. Some fit both descriptions.

So, please be understanding if some of them to disagree with you, or if your questions trigger some bad memories and bad reactions. Consider it an exercise in learning to understand others, and hopefully it will help you better understand your grandson.