Aspies and the misrepresentation of their own body language

[Judge]

I think at the heart of this conversation lies the ethics of employing pseudo-science. Namely that the use of body language lies within the same parameters as does the use of criminal profiling and polygraph machines. Claims, or practices which are presented as scientific, but does not adhere to a valid scientific method which lacks supporting evidence or plausibility, and cannot be reliably tested to properly ascertain any true scientific status.

It is disturbing to see anything society adopts while simultaneously their courts readily contain their usage given their inherent fallibility. As if it were some kind of acceptable standard of limited hypocrisy. You'd think that any society with a sophisticated sense of justice would eschew the use of any pseudo science from the outset given such inherent fallibility. But they don't. They allow them to be used just enough for law enforcement to claim probable cause.

Ironically I feel I have come full-circle having posted similar concerns in another thread. There was one point in my life where I had applied for employment for a position requiring an extensive background investigation as well as eventual polygraph examinations. Eventually my "inner voice" told me to back out from this process. After all these years now I can understand what that "inner voice" was trying to tell me. That I didn't possess the Neurotypical skills required of the job offered to me. Which incidentally was not the job initially offered at the outset.

I guess what bothers me most about pseudo science is how it falls in between the cracks of society and law. It never rises to the surface, nor does it ever really go away. And yet it can potentially put people like us at a very unfair disadvantage. But then if we really are only two percent of the population, basically we're politically expendable in virtually any democracy. That our voices and concerns will likely fall upon deaf ears.

 

[Daniel]

I don't really know the justice system all that well, but I would hope that physical evidence remains the standard by which cases are tried and verdicts are decided. I'm glad that people are realizing that eyewitness testimony is nowhere near as reliable as it was once believed to be.

With a jury system though, there's always that element--does the person "seem" guilty?

I'm currently reading Susan Cain's Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking. There's a part where the author, an introvert herself, relates a story where she had to take a lie detector test. Introverts tend to have a higher level of sensitivity in a lot of ways, and simply hearing the question "Have you ever used cocaine?" set off the machine. The examiner didn't believe her protests to the contrary.

There's an episode of St. Elsewhere where Dr. Peter White, on trial for rape, beats a lie detector test and is acquitted. When his lawyer asks him how he did it, he explains that he read in a textbook that it's the questions that set off a polygraph machine, not the answers. I actually have the clip posted on my YouTube channel:

 

[Judge]

I don't really know the justice system all that well, but I would hope that physical evidence remains the standard by which cases are tried and verdicts are decided.

In US courts rules of physical evidence are unaffected in that sense. Results of things like polygraph results are inadmissable as evidence.

However in the course of establishing probable cause to investigate a crime, that's a process which is more subjective relative to the use of techniques or technologies which may be deemed as pseudo-science.

 

[Daniel]

In US courts rules of physical evidence are unaffected in that sense. Results of things like polygraph results are inadmissable as evidence.

However in the course of establishing probable cause to investigate a crime, that's a process which is more subjective relative to the use of techniques or technologies which may be deemed as pseudo-science.

Okay, I see the difference!

In that case--it would be nice if Aspies and Autists become more visible in society, so it becomes more known to NTs that there's a subset of the population that has a different approach to non-verbal communication. So when an investigator learns that a suspect is on the spectrum, they are able to properly understand that factor.

But I'm not holding my breath!

 

[umbrellabeach]

Body language is totally lost on me. I don't notice my own or other people's.

 

[islandria]

For me I've always thought I was quite good at reading other's body language. I remember it as being the first language I learned and am well aware that we humans speak with body language far more with words. So it is something I've always been conscious of, something I am always 'reading' in others. The difference (and I'm new at seeing this, so it could be a generalization) is that what everyone or many on this forum, are calling 'aspies', are not able to do specifically, and I totally include myself in this group, is to be able to 'read' people's facial expressions of emotions. There's a huge difference in reading body language and in reading FACIAL EXPRESSIONS OF EMOTIONS . I capitalized those words because they're important. For someone who has prided herself on her high ability to read body language (I'm constantly purposely doing it when I'm around people - it's draining)., I realized after becoming aware of 'aspie' symptoms that I sure miss it on the FACIAL EXPRESSIONS OF EMOTIONS!!! Whoah!! I didn't even know those existed!!! I'm 50 years old this year. How could I have gone through my whole life and not known something that seems to be taken for granted with most people (or 'NTs') even exist s? It's the same thing as the 'builtin social structure'. It ddoesn't exist for me. The difference is I knew the social structure didn't existfor me - I was just dumbfounded by it and at times completely confused. With not knowing that other people have been quite easily and regularily 'reading' one aanother's emotions through their faces? I think, "Whoah! I've been missing out - big time!!! I don't really feel like I've been missing out. But I do see how others would think I've been missing out. More on this later, (maybe.)

 

[Judge]

Body language is usually a hit-miss affair for me. But when people start using explicatives in my direction, I usually pick up on that pretty fast. Dealing with NTs online can get me into trouble...since there's no queues other than the text they type.

 

[islandria]

What I wanted to say in keeping in line with the topic, was my own body language misinterpret ation from others. In reading some of these posts it reminded me of when I had to take my grown son (I have 2 sons - one 25 and one 26 - the younger has schizophrenia, the older aspergers like me. Our 29 year old daughter has M.S. and we have a 22 year old daughter who is perfectly 'normal' and going to university to become a psychologist. ) Ah. Lost my train of thought and can't backtrack to read my words or they will all get lost on my phone - so frustrating! Anyway, to make a long story short (er), when I took my son in to get diagnosed (with mental illness - he was delusional), not only was it a harrowing experience for me, it was a traumatic experience. He was 22 at the time. We were in the foyer of the mental health ward of the hospital and my son is tripping out. They send in some heavy duty security and I start laughing my head off!!!! This scene was funny to me. My son is tripping out just being his strange self and he starts to try to fight these big, armed officers with his gangly underfed delusional self and I'm thinking, "what the heck has this got to do with giving my son a diagnosis? This is a scene straight outof a movie! It was hilarious. But I look around at all the 'pprofessionals' and their faces are dead serious and some look like they're even going to cry, like they're watching an emotional movie. And some are looking at me with queer looks so I know I shouldn't be laughing but I don't get why. Eventually he got diagnosed but in the meantime I have to go to my hubby (big time NT ( and explain the whole senario and ask him what all the facial expressions meant to get a bigger picture of what was going on. He even explains to me that the people who were watching (and this is how I can understand it - not his words) it's as though they were watching a dramatic movie but it was about me and my son and "look!" the freaky mother is laughing! What is wrong with her? This is an extreme example but things like this happen in my life all tge time because others are misinterpreting my facial expressions. (Not really - to them they are correctly interpreting - it really is me who 'doesn't get' what is going on with the 'reading the emotions through the face thing'. ) The result? I am bewildered and confused. My husband has to interpret. The people at the hospital think I'm weird. In the little things like at stores I just try to ignore it all but it's hard.

 

[islandria]

Dealing with NTs online can get me into trouble...since there's no cues other than the text they type.

Same.

 

[King_Oni]

Dealing with NTs online can get me into trouble...since there's no queues other than the text they type.

That's actually where I have less problems in dealing with (presumably) NT's. The lack of social cues puts it on an even playing field.

Though perhaps it's partially that I have less issues in figuring out intentions that way, than I have figuring out intentions by non-verbal cues.

 

[Judge]

That's actually where I have less problems in dealing with (presumably) NT's. The lack of social cues puts it on an even playing field.

Though perhaps it's partially that I have less issues in figuring out intentions that way, than I have figuring out intentions by non-verbal cues.

I encounter a lot of sarcasm online. At times it can be quite an obstacle for me. Sending me off the playing field altogether.

 

[King_Oni]

I encounter a lot of sarcasm online. At times it can be quite an obstacle for me. Sending me off the playing field altogether.

Heh... recognizing it in writing goes fairly easy for me. Though I communicate a lot through text rather than talking and interacting face to face with people. Perhaps in that sense I have little training when it comes to body language alltogether as well.

 

[islandria]

But then if we really are only two percent of the population, basically we're politically expendable in virtually any democracy.

So true.

 

[Judge]

Heh... recognizing it in writing goes fairly easy for me. Though I communicate a lot through text rather than talking and interacting face to face with people. Perhaps in that sense I have little training when it comes to body language alltogether as well.

It's truly neurological for me. Like my OCD.

Despite my intellect there are certain things that for whatever reason become beyond my control at times. Probably the toughest thing to explain to people.

 

[mama_lotus]

I always stand with either my arms crossed or my hands in my back pockets. I have seen myself in photos and thought it's not particularly "cute," (NT?) and tried to stop but I can't. I also have read articles on how crossing your arms across your chest like that is seen as standoffish but crap, most things I do are standoffish so oh well. I just don't feel comfortable if I'm not in one of my few "stances." I just can't do it, Captain. I honestly don't notice others' body language. When I am sitting having a conversation with someone, I am scanning the room, looking at their hair or their jewelry, watching the ice in our glasses, looking at their nails. I am much more apt to notice facial expressions or tone of voice. I want to know more about the surveillance stuff.

 

[Stacey]

I've never really given my body language any thought? I do tend to sit with my back facing people when I dine out. I carry a bag everywhere I go,(books, keys, purse) slung over my right shoulder, holding the strap with both hands. I keep my eyes on the floor and I walk quickly. Nothing about my body language is very noticable I suppose.

 

[KassieMac]

I've begun to notice how people respond to my body language and facial expressions--took me until I was in thirties to develop an awareness of it.

The thing I've noticed with people--neurotypicals in particular, because I haven't been around anyone on the spectrum in a long time--they take my non-verbal communication personally, when it has practically nothing to do with them. Even being aware of it, I don't have that thing that neurotypicals have, where a person's non-verbal communication is a function of the present social situation.

I have to be careful with my posture because I have a bad back. I'm pretty sure I come off looking stiff and formal. But that's fine with me, 'cause that's a pretty accurate description!

I've always know that people misread me, but I never understood why. Most NTs take everything personally ... if I make a general musing observation about the world in general, they take it as a criticism against themselves (wrong on both points) and immediately become defensive, making any further communication impossible. They don't hear or understand the words I say, because they're sole focus is on the arrogant assumption that they can read my thoughts ... and they almost always perceive deception or malicious intent where there is none.

I reject the notion that we should learn to use their standards of body language by logic ... any time I've tried to apply logic to NTs it's backfired on me. Body language, facial expression, and almost all non-verbal communication is subjective, and they will often interpret it to reinforce whatever they've already decided to believe. I focus on words because they are tangible and (hopefully) specific. I listen to their words and reply to the meaning of their words. I try to choose my words carefully to avoid misinterpretation. They mostly ignore my words, assuming they can read my thoughts ... and they consistently assume that I have understood something that they refuse to verbalize.

Since my 40+ years of attempting to communicate in their vague, shifting, subjective 'language' has always made things worse, words are the only thing I can rely on. If I rope off a portion of my brain trying to mimic this non-verbal communication that makes no sense to me, I risk not hearing their words ... or worse, accidentally using the wrong words myself. Any time I do mis-speak, NTs immediately pounce on it and use it as 'evidence' of my deception or stupidity ... which just perpetuates the common assumptions that are made of Aspies. I find it ironic that they always hear my specific words when I've accidentally said something incorrectly, but never hear or understand when I use language correctly to say what I mean. And they say *we* have selective hearing??

NTs are like fish, swimming is natural and instinctive to them. Aspies are like birds, some can swim, but we're far better at flying. Some NTs would like to mandate that everyone must swim (and outlaw or eradicate all flight). I've never been able to swim (figuratively or literally) but not for lack of trying ... and I've come to accept that I just don't like being in the water (literally *and* figuratively). We have many skills and strengths that are best manifest when we fly. Some birds can swim, but will never swim as well as a fish, and will never swim as well as we fly. There are even a few fish that can 'fly'. But to attempt to devalue our skills because we are different is systemic oppression. When we embrace each others skills and assist where the other is weak or unskilled, the world will be a better place. Let me FLY!!