Ancient History

[Cyber]

Some of the Murujuga petroglyphs have been dated to 45,000+ years.

I also read this on west Australian government website, but they added the following caveat - " this rock art is difficult to date and is only an estimate.

 

[Outdated]

Oldest confirmed
https://www.unimelb.edu.au/newsroom/news/2021/february/australias-oldest-rock-painting-is-a-kangaroo

Petroglyphs are not paintings. They are carvings.

 

[Cyber]

Petroglyphs are not paintings. They are carvings.

According to the University of Melbourne it's "The oldest known intact Aboriginal rock painting in Australia"

I think the keyword is intact. I have for some time wondered about the antiquity of rock paintings, given the difficulty in dating and how it reconciles with genetics. Population genetics shows humans outside of Africa split from Subsaharan Africa around 35,000-45,000 years ago. Infact even the carriers of the Indo-European language only arose 5000 years ago in one small part of the Steppe.

Humans seem to be genetically far closer and more recently split than what archaeologists give credit. I am therefore wondering how much of the trinkets, carvings and paintings we attribute to Homo Sapiens Sapiens, might actually be work of Neanderthals or Denisovans? much of the theories about human evolution informing modern archaeology come from the 19th century where belief about the technological superiority of Cro-Magnon man and the ascent of early Europeans over primitive ape like cave dwelling Neanderthals. today we know Neanderthals (and probably Denisovans) were likely just as advanced as us.

My hypothesis is incoming Melanesian humans were the first into Sahul, probably about the same time as humans moved into the Americas, and into places like Taiwan and Japan around the end of the last ice age. Subsequently a second wave of Australian aborigines came and replaced the Denisovan-Melanesians in Australia (Mungo man) leaving only the Tasmanians and Torres strait people.

this now makes sense, the Denisovans are likely the aboriginal people of Australia, Japan, taiwan and also explain aboriginal DNA and footprints in South America predating ice age which is also Denisovan (mistakenly called Australian).

 

[Outdated]

According to the University of Melbourne it's "The oldest known intact Aboriginal rock painting in Australia"

Once again - Petroglyphs are not cave paintings.

Subsequently a second wave of Australian aborigines came and replaced the Denisovan-Melanesians in Australia (Mungo man) leaving only the Tasmanians and Torres strait people.

The Tasmanian Aboriginals were also part of the "new wave" of invaders and were not the original inhabitants. Their skin was paler and they had blue eyes but this is a direct result of hundreds of generations living somewhere where it snows every year.

Torres Straight Islanders and the people of Papua New Guinea are also of the same people with the same easily identifiable genetic traits such as cranial structure and facial features.

Melanesians are a completely different and completely unrelated people to the Australian Aboriginals. They travelled as far west as New Zealand but didn't get to Australia until after European colonisation.

 

[Cyber]

Once again - Petroglyphs are not cave paintings.

View attachment 144126


The Tasmanian Aboriginals were also part of the "new wave" of invaders and were not the original inhabitants. Their skin was paler and they had blue eyes but this is a direct result of hundreds of generations living somewhere where it snows every year.

Torres Straight Islanders and the people of Papua New Guinea are also of the same people with the same easily identifiable genetic traits such as cranial structure and facial features.

Melanesians are a completely different and completely unrelated people to the Australian Aboriginals. They travelled as far west as New Zealand but didn't get to Australia until after European colonisation.

Sorry DNA evidence from Cambridge and Anglia Ruskin Universities, shows that Australia's aboriginal population sprang from the same tiny group of colonists, along with their New Guinean neighbours.

DNA links Aborigines to African walkabout

Academics analysed the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) and Y chromosome DNA of Aboriginal Australians and Melanesians from New Guinea. This data was compared with the various DNA patterns associated with early humans.

The results showed that both the Aborigines and Melanesians share the genetic features that have been linked to the exodus of modern humans from Africa 50,000 years ago.

 

[AuAL]

Veth et al. (2017) have presented evidence for [human] occupation [of Barrow Island] dating to between 51.1 ka and 46.2 ka, with direct dates on shellfish from 42.5 ka representing the oldest marine dietary remains in Australia.

UNESCO has recently (2025) listed the Murujuga Cultural Landscape under the World Heritage Convention: “Murujuga is a landscape of ancient rocks located in northwest Australia, which encompasses the Burrup Peninsula, the Dampier Archipelago’s 42 islands, and nearby marine areas. It is shaped by the Lore—rules and narratives that were put in place to create the Country—and the enduring presence of the Ngarda-Ngarli, Traditional Owners and Custodians of the site. The property holds profound cultural and spiritual significance, reflecting over 50,000 years of continuous care and use. Murujuga is renowned for its dense concentration of petroglyphs, featuring unique motifs that display artistic and technical mastery.”

Veth, P., I."Ward, T."Manne, S."Ulm, K."Ditch$eld, J."Dortch, F."Hook, F."Petchey, A."Hogg, D."Questiaux, M."Demuro, L."Arnold, N."Spooner, V."Levchenko, J."Skippington, C."Byrne, M."Basgall, D."Zeanah, D."Belton, P."Helmholz, S."Bajkan, R."Bailey, C."Placzek and P."Kendrick 2017. Early human occupation of a maritime desert, Barrow Island, north-west Australia. Quaternary Science Reviews 168:19–29. doi.org/10.1016/j.quascirev.2017.05.002.

 

[Outdated]

The results showed that both the Aborigines and Melanesians share the genetic features that have been linked to the exodus of modern humans from Africa 50,000 years ago.

So too do the Caucasians, the Polynesians, the Macassans and all the others. That 50 ka though is obviously not very accurate.

 

[Cyber]

So too do the Caucasians, the Polynesians, the Macassans and all the others. That 50 ka though is obviously not very accurate.

yes but aborigines and melanesians are genetically more closely related > caucasians/polynesians etc. I don't think there is any dispute there

 

[Cyber]

Veth et al. (2017) have presented evidence for [human] occupation [of Barrow Island] dating to between 51.1 ka and 46.2 ka, with direct dates on shellfish from 42.5 ka representing the oldest marine dietary remains in Australia.

UNESCO has recently (2025) listed the Murujuga Cultural Landscape under the World Heritage Convention: “Murujuga is a landscape of ancient rocks located in northwest Australia, which encompasses the Burrup Peninsula, the Dampier Archipelago’s 42 islands, and nearby marine areas. It is shaped by the Lore—rules and narratives that were put in place to create the Country—and the enduring presence of the Ngarda-Ngarli, Traditional Owners and Custodians of the site. The property holds profound cultural and spiritual significance, reflecting over 50,000 years of continuous care and use. Murujuga is renowned for its dense concentration of petroglyphs, featuring unique motifs that display artistic and technical mastery.”

Veth, P., I."Ward, T."Manne, S."Ulm, K."Ditch$eld, J."Dortch, F."Hook, F."Petchey, A."Hogg, D."Questiaux, M."Demuro, L."Arnold, N."Spooner, V."Levchenko, J."Skippington, C."Byrne, M."Basgall, D."Zeanah, D."Belton, P."Helmholz, S."Bajkan, R."Bailey, C."Placzek and P."Kendrick 2017. Early human occupation of a maritime desert, Barrow Island, north-west Australia. Quaternary Science Reviews 168:19–29. doi.org/10.1016/j.quascirev.2017.05.002.

I think it's plausible that if Denisovans were already present in Sahul that they were capable of the rock art and/or tools attributed to aboriginal peoples. Nobody now disputes the genetic evidence that aboriginal people and Melanesians have the highest ancestry of Denisovan DNA in the world. Later aboriginal and Melanesian populations may well be continuing cultural traditions of their Denisovan ancestors. this scenario goes a long way to explain the presence of Australian DNA in south America or among the indigenous peoples of Japan and Taiwan. Denisovans, not actually Australians.

 

[Captain Jigglypuff]

I’m particularly interested in Ancient Greek civilization and culture and anything to do with Pompeii. Ancient Rome and Egypt are also fascinating but I like the ancient Greek civilization even more.

 

[Captain Jigglypuff]

My favorite thing about the ancient Greeks are the art and mythology. I’m particularly fond of the sculptures.

 

[Cyber]

Ancient Greek artwork, language, science and sculpture have certainly had a big influence on our own culture today. Greece and Egypt are both examples of global cultures, not owned by one people,

 

[Captain Jigglypuff]

I’ve always been fascinated with the city of Pompeii and what life was like there before its destruction since I first learned about it in the third grade. I think it’s neat how the volcanic ash actually helped preserve what the city looked like and how the citizens lived their daily lives.

 

[Cyber]

^^^ the frozen casts of people from Pompei are certainly confronting. their positions in the throes of agony/death don't technically reveal how exactly they lived, but, yes seeing them in shops, kitchens and living rooms does bring home the idea domestic life has always been part of everyday lives.

 

[Captain Jigglypuff]

^^^ the frozen casts of people from Pompei are certainly confronting. their positions in the throes of agony/death don't technically reveal how exactly they lived, but, yes seeing them in shops, kitchens and living rooms does bring home the idea domestic life has always been part of everyday lives.

I was talking about the buildings being preserved instead of being totally destroyed by fire and how some of the food became casts.

 

[Cyber]

^^^ Yeah that is pretty cool.

 

[GoThePlay]

I went to Ercolano and Pompei almost ten years ago..I wanted to share with you a photo of a mosaic that particularly struck me in Ercolano

 

[Cyber]

It's really beautiful. Ancient people lived such short brutish lives, not knowing when their lives would be in peril from war, pillage, famine, disease or (in the case of Pompeii) natural disaster. Yet they manage to find time to create such beautiful frescoes and mosaics. I'm sure they also had beautiful gardens as well. If I am not mistaken the image is of Roman gods right? I imagine we humans have always liked pretty things, I can imagine bouquets of fresh flowers decorating caves in prehistoric times.

 

[Grondhammar]

umm I'm flexible, I know some historians focus on a particular culture or time period but I'm not fussed. I even like the Anglo-Saxon/Viking age although that extended till 1066 which is technically merging into the middle ages.

@Cyber, I'm a little late to this thread, but I've always thought that anything after 1066 is modern history and therefore boring

I got my undergraduate degree in classical languages (Latin, Greek) and did a little study of Egyptian, Akkadian, Hurian languages during that time too. It's all fascinating. I just finished up a 4 hr podcast that covered the entirety of Egyptian history, a good mix of ethnography, religious and military history. There's so much to learn, and I always wish I knew more!

Going to dive a little because this white screen is inviting me to...

One thing I hadn't realised is that all the pyramids were built by the time the Old Kingdom ended (2180-ish BC). That's just astonishing to me -- not because they're really old to us (which they are), but because Akhenaten was having workmen carve the names of old gods off the tops of them 850 years after they were built, and the traditional founding of Rome was still 600 years in the future. It's dizzying, that span of time!

In the same vein, the obelisk that's currently in the Piazza del Popolo in Rome was brought to Rome by Augustus in 10 BC, but was originally made during Seti I/Rameses II reigns, around 1300 BC.

Studying ancient history helps me appreciate that, however crazy the world is currently, it's a little tiny tiny blip that will get written up and examined and discussed a thousand years from now.