A bit confused, please help.

[kenzie]

Hey everyone, I made this account because I can’t seem to get answers from anywhere else and I don’t want to go to a professional if this is “normal”. So, I was diagnosed when I was younger (I am 13 now). I don’t really think this is “normal” behavior for an autistic, but I am completely self-aware, I can’t feel empathy at all, I don’t genuinely care about any of my family or friends and I meet the DSM-5 criteria for ASPD, besides the fact that I am under 18. I do meet the criteria for ASD, obviously, because I was diagnosed. Is it possible that I could have ASPD or some other related disorder? Does anyone else experience antisocial symptoms? I don’t really want to self-diagnose or anything, but I do want some clarity.

 

[WolfSpirit]

Here's a few thoughts. No idea if any of these will help you or not, but here goes:

you know, there is a difference between 'not caring' and 'not being able to express emotion in an NT fashion'. There is also a thing where trauma or depression can create a sort of emotional numbness, so you have trouble feeling emotions, either related to other people, or at all. You're awfully young yet, especially for an autistic. Emotions are complicated things. And difficult for autistics to get a grasp on. There is also a big difference between "asocial" and "antisocial" which most people often fail to grasp.

I used to say that 99% of the people in my life didn't really matter to me when you got right down to it, and to an extent, that was true, but a lot of it was a combination or autism, depression and trauma. Having had many more relationships now, especially ones that accepted me for me, and were able to respect me enough to teach me about emotional reciprocity and social relationships in general, without demeaning me, I've figured out the whole concept of deep emotional connections with other people a whole lot better.

I'm still very particular about who I find worth the effort of forming a relationship with. And I'm pretty 'black and white' about whether someone is worth the effort or not. I often may not express my connection to other people the same way an NT would, or would recognize, but I've found other ways to let the people who are important to me know that they are. Some of the NTs in my life (not family) have let me know that they think I'm making more of an effort than their NT relationships do.

Autistics express emotions differently than NT's do. We process emotions differently than NTs do. It doesn't mean we don't feel them. We have relationships in a whole different fashion than NTs do. What is important to us can be very different than what is important to them. None of this means that we are 'less than' or 'subhuman' or any of the other things they've been known to call us. We just relate differently. I love Jim Sinclair's statement (from xyr "Bridging the Gaps" article, I believe) about how "I can leave and be just fine, or I can stay and be even better" when describing relationships. Just because we don't 'stick', or become dependent on any particular relationship (or any relationship) doesn't mean those relationships might not be important to us. It means we're more independent than NTs.

And, as I said, the right experiences can change things considerably. You're awfully young yet, for an autistic, to pick up on all the complexities that are involved in relationships and emotions. (and communication, for that matter.) There's a reason they say autism involves a lot of developmental delays. It's not necessarily a bad thing, no matter what society says, it's just different. It means we have longer to figure it all out, and to keep learning. As autistics, we often tend to spend a lot more time and energy on learning such things.

I could go on, but I might start confusing things. This is a good place to stop.

 

[Skittlebisquit]

Welcome to the forum kenzie. I dont really know any technical terms so i cant amswer your question except from personal experience. This is a positive and supporting enviornment for peer to peer support. Its been a real valuable rescource for me personally, and is even accessible for me with limited data like i often have at the end of my billing cycle. I only have a phone for net access.
For myself i would say it seems to be a seperate but related issue, the antisocial aspect. I believe it to be pattern behavior and a conditioned response from rejection i have met with as a theme in my life. I am 34 years older than you are,thats plenty of time for the lines to get blurry.
I have found meaningful and supportive relationships in closed communities, where peer to peer support is a standard, like here and at a spiritual community i am involved with. Based on that i would say that i am certainly empathic and capable of normal emotions, but not likely to quickly develop relationships that are healthy.
I am not sure there is a standard that exists if i read your posting correctly. I read here " if you have met one person with autism, then you have met one person with autism". Best wishes to you

 

[VictorR]

Hello and welcome.

Many on the spectrum have a co-morbid diagnosis. If you have concerns about your existing diagnosis(es), have you considered reaching out to either the professional who gave the diagnosis to ask about it, or perhaps to see a different psychologist/doctor for a second opinion?

Maybe you have both ASD and ASPD. Or maybe you have ASPD that was misdiagnosed as ASD.

Many things exist as a spectrum and so we have have bits and pieces of something.

Here's some articles you may find interesting.
People with milder forms of autism struggle as adults
Down by law | Spectrum | Autism Research News
Cognition and behavior: Autism, antisocial brains differ | Spectrum | Autism Research News

 

[unperson]

ASPD is quite a different thing, it may be your lack of empathy makes you a match on some level. ASPD people in my experience are often very cluey socially, with above average social skills and can be drawn to crime, it's like ASPD excludes a lot of autistic criteria -I'd be surprised if the two are co-morbid, unless you experienced a lot of cruelty in your life and are imitating it.

 

[TopherPwn]

I've meet someone years ago who was the same. To dislike and disregard any empathy. They ended up changing when they met someone kind and caring. The fact you are worried is a sign of emotion. Honestly I feel anger and fear coming from your post. Pure signs of emotion. Being 13 is going to be a hard time to establish anything. I'd try and focus on studying for your future. Classes and lessons are everywhere. If you want to leave your family. It's going to be the smartest way. I have a hunch you're fairly intelligent. Kahn academy, youtube, and google. Best things to get in are genetics, stocks, and coding. Plenty of sources to find a way to make income that suits you. I'm not a professional, but I could be right. I do have a question, how do you think? Can you use words or image in your mind? That's your conscious. Good luck and welcome to the forum.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

Hey everyone, I made this account because I can’t seem to get answers from anywhere else and I don’t want to go to a professional if this is “normal”. So, I was diagnosed when I was younger (I am 13 now). I don’t really think this is “normal” behavior for an autistic, but I am completely self-aware, I can’t feel empathy at all, I don’t genuinely care about any of my family or friends and I meet the DSM-5 criteria for ASPD, besides the fact that I am under 18. I do meet the criteria for ASD, obviously, because I was diagnosed. Is it possible that I could have ASPD or some other related disorder? Does anyone else experience antisocial symptoms? I don’t really want to self-diagnose or anything, but I do want some clarity.

Hi Kenzie, and welcome.

OK,...with regards to your concerns about empathy and interpersonal bonding (family, friends, etc.). This is actually one of the hallmarks,...key symptoms, of someone with an autism spectrum disorder that psychologists will assess during interviews. So, this is "normal" for someone with an ASD. A high percentage of us will be as you described. This is NOT to say that ALL persons with an ASD with have these symptoms,...so be careful with generalizations,...the word "spectrum" is in the label, itself.

For further clarification, there are two basic types of empathy,...cognitive and emotional. Cognitive empathy refers to something called "theory of mind". It allows you to "put yourself into another's situation", imagining what it would be like if you were to trade places with the other person. This is a higher order of thinking that has only been identified in humans and great apes. You can read up on this, but it comes from something called the "limbic system" and involves areas of the frontal lobe called Brodmann's areas 10 & 11. If you have low levels of cognitive empathy, in life, this means that you are less likely to think of others when they are away from you,...an "out of sight, out of mind" kind of mentality. You may like your friend and have a great time with them when together,...but less likely to phone and text them just to talk. You might not understand that the other person is actually thinking of you, and wondering why you aren't reaching out to them, they may begin to feel you might not actually be their friend, that you don't love them. You see where I am going with this?

Emotional empathy is a primitive system that nearly all animals, birds, fish, have. It is located in Brodmann's area 44. It is a "mirroring effect". I see you cry,...I want to console you,...I may cry with you. You see me get angry with you,...your defense systems kick in and you immediately respond with anger of your own. You see a group of people getting fired up at a political rally,...and then they are storming the White House. You see a flock of birds taking off together, and they fly beautifully together in a mass. Same thing with a large school of fish responding to a predator. Personally, I find it interesting that when my brother died,...I cried like a baby with his wife and kids,...but didn't really grieve for myself and my loss. That was my lack of cognitive empathy, but strong emotional empathy.

Cognitive and emotional empathies are two different systems working from different areas of the brain. So, be specific when you say "I don't have empathy". You likely do. You likely feel emotions very strongly, at times.

The social bonding thing,...that too, has some neurological basis. Many folks with ASD will have varying degrees of difficulty with social bonding. This is due to how autism affects the hypothalamus and posterior pituitary. The hypothalamus is the processing center for the anterior and posterior pituitary,...the posterior pituitary, amongst other functions, secretes the hormones oxytocin and vasopressin,...the "love hormones". These hormones aid in the bonding between individuals (mother and baby, boyfriend and girlfriend, etc.) but are also partly responsible for social motivation (walking up and introducing yourself, texting your friend, going out to the mall, etc.). No surprise here,...many of us are low in these hormones and tend to be more introverts and generally have a difficult time bonding with family and friends.

So, based upon what you have described Kenzie,...you are normal,...welcome to the club.

 

[TopherPwn]

Can you have both? Feel like cognitive is stronger then emotional. I don't really know the facts, but I do know myself.

Hi Kenzie, and welcome.

OK,...with regards to your concerns about empathy and interpersonal bonding (family, friends, etc.). This is actually one of the hallmarks,...key symptoms, of someone with an autism spectrum disorder that psychologists will assess during interviews. So, this is "normal" for someone with an ASD. A high percentage of us will be as you described. This is NOT to say that ALL persons with an ASD with have these symptoms,...so be careful with generalizations,...the word "spectrum" is in the label, itself.

For further clarification, there are two basic types of empathy,...cognitive and emotional. Cognitive empathy refers to something called "theory of mind". It allows you to "put yourself into another's situation", imagining what it would be like if you were to trade places with the other person. This is a higher order of thinking that has only been identified in humans and great apes. You can read up on this, but it comes from something called the "limbic system" and involves areas of the frontal lobe called Brodmann's areas 10 & 11. If you have low levels of cognitive empathy, in life, this means that you are less likely to think of others when they are away from you,...an "out of sight, out of mind" kind of mentality. You may like your friend and have a great time with them when together,...but less likely to phone and text them just to talk. You might not understand that the other person is actually thinking of you, and wondering why you aren't reaching out to them, they may begin to feel you might not actually be their friend, that you don't love them. You see where I am going with this?

Emotional empathy is a primitive system that nearly all animals, birds, fish, have. It is located in Brodmann's area 44. It is a "mirroring effect". I see you cry,...I want to console you,...I may cry with you. You see me get angry with you,...your defense systems kick in and you immediately respond with anger of your own. You see a group of people getting fired up at a political rally,...and then they are storming the White House. You see a flock of birds taking off together, and they fly beautifully together in a mass. Same thing with a large school of fish responding to a predator. Personally, I find it interesting that when my brother died,...I cried like a baby with his wife and kids,...but didn't really grieve for myself and my loss. That was my lack of cognitive empathy, but strong emotional empathy.

Cognitive and emotional empathies are two different systems working from different areas of the brain. So, be specific when you say "I don't have empathy". You likely do. You likely feel emotions very strongly, at times.

The social bonding thing,...that too, has some neurological basis. Many folks with ASD will have varying degrees of difficulty with social bonding. This is due to how autism affects the hypothalamus and posterior pituitary. The hypothalamus is the processing center for the anterior and posterior pituitary,...the posterior pituitary, amongst other functions, secretes the hormones oxytocin and vasopressin,...the "love hormones". These hormones aid in the bonding between individuals (mother and baby, boyfriend and girlfriend, etc.) but are also partly responsible for social motivation (walking up and introducing yourself, texting your friend, going out to the mall, etc.). No surprise here,...many of us are low in these hormones and tend to be more introverts and generally have a difficult time bonding with family and friends.

So, based upon what you have described Kenzie,...you are normal,...welcome to the club.

 

[Alexej]

Hi @kenzie

Firstly welcome to the Forums!

Regarding feelings, you might want to look at something called alexithymia. This is something that many folk with autism have as well as their autism.

Here is a link to an online test. Alexithymie Questionnaire • Alexithymia
However, take the result with as much caution as you would any on line test.

 

[TopherPwn]

Not even sure what it is. Thanks is for the help.

 

[Finder]

This could be "normal." However, I am not sure how far self diagnosis can go. If you are really concerned, you should speak to someone.

Now, my case. I have a difficult time understanding how I feel. It is almost like I don't have strong feelings for others, at least on the surface when I try to consciously understand it. However, I do have empathy--I care about the how events affect people and how those people are impacted. You could say I have a detached view of the world, but understand the implications of things that happen to people and how that can impact them. You could can it the Dr. Spock syndrome (or Data, if you prefer Star Trek the Next Generation).

 

[TopherPwn]

This could be "normal." However, I am not sure how far self diagnosis can go. If you are really concerned, you should speak to someone.

Now, my case. I have a difficult time understanding how I feel. It is almost like I don't have strong feelings for others, at least on the surface when I try to consciously understand it. However, I do have empathy--I care about the how events affect people and how those people are impacted. You could say I have a detached view of the world, but understand the implications of things that happen to people and how that can impact them. You could can it the Dr. Spock syndrome (or Data, if you prefer Star Trek the Next Generation).

More curious then determined. When they're in my area I feel it. I do the disconnect and rarely message first thing. If someone doesn't push me I don't push them. Kinda the same way if I date. They really have to want it. Push for it and see if it takes.
Although I'd cry and give the shirt off my back in a winter storm to the person I disliked the most. If they needed it. When I act every action considers the people who would be around it.
I do shut down during a breakup, but it's more because I don't want to abuse them. If they love me and I don't love them or accepted the breakup and their previous fear that created it. It's always interesting to learn the correct terms. Always use to my own intuition definitions.

 

[Crossbreed]

There is also a big difference between "asocial" and "antisocial" which most people often fail to grasp.

It is more common for autistics to be dyssocial than the two given, but they can be difficult to tell apart sometimes.

Someone who is dyssocial seeks out social connection but is still very klutzy at it.

@kenzie, if you are able to make positive connections here, you are neither antisocial nor asocial.

 

[Markness]

Hi @kenzie

Firstly welcome to the Forums!

Regarding feelings, you might want to look at something called alexithymia. This is something that many folk with autism have as well as their autism.

Here is a link to an online test. Alexithymie Questionnaire • Alexithymia
However, take the result with as much caution as you would any on line test.

Seconded.

Welcome to the forum, kenzie! Please don’t feel like you aren’t “normal”. Many on the spectrum struggle with their emotions and wonder what is “wrong” with themselves. I went through the same things when I was your age. Maybe you have clinical depression? Many of us on the spectrum suffer from different forms of it. Look up clinical depression as well as alexithymia and dysthymia.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

Can you have both? Feel like cognitive is stronger then emotional. I don't really know the facts, but I do know myself.

YES! As said above, "spectrum" is in the label. I have been on autism groups on Facebook and there appears to be a population of what they have labeled as "empaths",...strong, almost psychic cognitive empathy,...but with a lot of the common ASD signs and symptoms.

 

[TopherPwn]

YES! As said above, "spectrum" is in the label. I have been on autism groups on Facebook and there appears to be a population of what they have labeled as "empaths",...strong, almost psychic cognitive empathy,...but with a lot of the common ASD signs and symptoms.

Thanks for the information, this is the only group I use. On top of that I'm on and off from time to time.

 

[Wolfgangus Faldestolius]

I expect you have got plenty of empathy. Don't let people put you down just because of the way you express things.

This has got nothing to do with having ASC by the way.