Wish me luck...

[Bella Pines]

And once again I find myself if the same old same old situation. On the outside, being singled out, being picked on. Oh deja vu my old friend.

So at work, I run several development teams globally, I've been in the industry for over 20 years and with my current company for over 10. I attend working groups that drive the entire industry and am very good at my specialized subject, which involves a lot of numbers and complexity. I get paid well for it.

However, still, STILL, after all this I get isolated and picked on. One of the managing directors took an instant dislike to me, no real reason. Let's call them NTManager10. NTManager10 has in the past described autistic/aspie characters in films as 'crazy people'. I don't think NTManager10 even knows why they hate me. For years they have tried to undermine me, demote me and generally move me as far away from them as physically and organizationally possible. This week I was forwarded a bunch of emails with references to "a jr member" (me), and saying things like "don't talk to her, talk to another person".

Nothing that NTManager10 has done is at all indefensible. When I raise it with colleagues, they all say that I am imagining it and that NTManager10 is wonderful. They are sure it's in my head, it's not.

And it's not the first time either. I've been through this loop with NTManagers 00 to 09 as well and I have no doubt that after this, there will be another one.

So. It's been boiling for a few months now. Today I am going to face NTManager10 and talk to them. I want to punch them, to say that I don't see them as "senior" in any way. I want to tell NTManager10 that they are an idiot and I can't bare to be in the same room as them. I want to tell them how bored I get during their motivational speeches, that serve only to motivate me to throw myself out the window. I want to shake them and tell them that sitting in an office is a pointless waste of time and that their precious job that they love so much is as empty as their head.

But I suspect that is why. I suspect that NTManager10 and all the previous NTManager iterations probably know that I think like this. My groans when a mandatory 'all hands' is announced, my eye rolls when a social is declared. They know I am different, that I don't follow the crowd and that scares and unnerves them. Ultimately they know that have no control or influence over me, if I do as they ask, it is an act, a choice.

So my aim today is to talk to NTManager10 and try to patch things over. Declare a truce. Find a common ground, and so long as I need a job to pay the bills, I will find a way to fit it. Again. I hate that I have to do this, but I've made a choice to live in NT society and so this is necessary at this time.

In retrospect, maybe this is a ranting room post!

 

[Fridgemagnetman]

But I suspect that is why. I suspect that NTManager10 and all the previous NTManager iterations probably know that I think like this.

Sounds familiar. They hate people who don't play the game. They can't admit it though.

If you're well paid, what's your life/spending strategy?
Situations like this are a good motive to spend less save more.

Collect some F you money.


So what is your likely gain from talking to the guy?

I don't think the dynamic involving the other people will change. They will double down on the existing beliefs and mamage 10 will find it easy to convert what you say into something malicious to spread.
Lies sailing close to the truth,with a spin to marginalise you further.

I would also stop mentioning what he's doing to others, as they never buy that stuff. Nothing that will make them responsible for their own lart.
They can also put you into 'drama queen' definition or some other such.
And also easily name you as the problem.

Be careful.

Reality or truth has little to do with how they behave.

I'm sure you'll find a diplomatic way to do it.

Your posts are generally filled with good sense - unless it's a random fluke - I would have to assume that it belongs to you.

 

[Keigan]

Keep focus, be calm, articulate, search for workability.

 

[Katleya]

People who are in the wrong or likely to do similar things usually flock with other people who are wrong and defend them, so I'm not surprised that everybody thinks it's in your head.

I always wonder to what extent incompetent people know they are incompetent. Some know it, and are afraid of being exposed, which make them see somebody like you as a threat, but others seem genuinely unaware of their lack of skills and intelligence...

It also seems a lot of people instinctively hate us for having the "courage" not to play by the rules, some of which even they sometimes find tedious.

Looks like I've joined you in the ranting rather than give constructive advice, sorry for that.
At any rate, you being in the same company for 10 years already is something I'm admirative of, I'm sure you're more capable of navigating your workplace than you realize. Try to stay calm, imagine a scenario where you don't take down NTM10, and perhaps rehearse it several times. I love truthfulness as much as you do, but it's not as popular with most NTs. You'll just end up labeled the know-it-all who thinks they're better than them (when really, who said anything about "thinking" that? You just know it )

 

[Mia]

Both my husband and myself have had similar things happen. In one scenario his upper boss, really disliked him, so much so that he spent time attempting to undermine his position for four years. It was likely because my husband had the best team, productive and loyal, in an area that brought in a great deal of income and he couldn't completely control my husband or the team. This man used to tell my husbands team members that if there were any problems, to confide in him rather than their immediate boss, my husband, undermining his authority and position.

For four years my husband had to stand in front of him, for a yearly review. He knew from the first moment that this man was useless, that his position was pointless, and that he really did very little. At meetings and conferences he wouldn't contribute anything when this boss was there, it got so bad that a remediation team was flown in twice to attempt to fix the situation. But it never worked, although my husband had a lot of fun interacting with the psychologists in the remediation team, they became friends.

Eventually, his upper boss who was very ambitious, moved on to a higher position in another city, one in which he didn't have daily dealings with subordinates. And the undermining power war was over. Actually think the big boss was so much trouble, that the remediation team worked consistently to move him out of there, into another bogus position.
Husband used to have migraines, terrible roseacea, difficulty breathing, nightmares, in those four years he slept five hours a night. But he endured, at a cost to himself certainly, when this boss transferred two people attended his send off party.

 

[OlLiE]

they feel threatened by people that focus on logical thought processes to achieve a goal, it undermines the 'charisma' of their manipulative selfserving claptrap

logic leaves managers no where to hide and forces them to take explicit responsibility for stupid decisions and their consequences, managers survive on plausible deniability, i.e. taking credit for other people's work when it goes well, blaming other people when they as a manager make mistakes

add to that the commonly accepted fact that a person is generally promoted to one level above their competence level, which introduces insecurity to the mix

in brief when confronted with a logical upfront person, they become the emperor with no clothes

i had an issue with it too, to the point that after 18 years i was burned out and have recently been fired

good luck

 

[OlLiE]

by the way, i agree with fridgemagnetman, don't talk to other colleagues about it, all you need is one self serving prick who wants to get ahead and you will be totally vulnerable

what i've learned is to not 'metaphorically' shoot unless you are willing to kill or be killed, half measures often muddy the waters and tend to just delay the inevitable binary resolution

at the end of the day it's a process, maybe don't pull the trigger now, but start creating alternatives instead, at least that your decisions will not be driven by financial uncertainty, i prefer to leave when i'm ready to go not when i'm told to go

 

[Fridgemagnetman]

always wonder to what extent incompetent people know they are incompetent. Some know it, and are afraid of being exposed, which make them see somebody like you as a threat, but others seem genuinely unaware of their lack of skills and intelligence...

Interesting comment. Im combining it with the idea of the workplace as a social hierarchy. So people are acting in terms of power structures, alpha male kind of thing rather than what would improve/ get the job done.

US : This rule make no sense.
THEM : Who are you? The janitor/intern/ lowly associate? Do what i say or you're out.

Think Yossarian in catch 22.

So workplaces are like mini societies and those within respond to that world unconsciously. So if you're outside of that way of thinking the social hierarchy still has to label you.

The alpha starts then it is copied all the way down 'troublemaker'. Then your behaviour can easily be labelled and any action interpreted with that bias (label) attached.
The cart before the horse every time.
Label first then understand and justify.

 

[Ambi]

I am so sorry you are going through this. I'm impressed you've lasted there so long! Social stuff burns me out and causes me to quit. Now I'm at my last chance job - trying to apply all that I've learned about ASD and NTs to avoid the terrible social situation of getting bullied.

 

[Bella Pines]

I have a meeting scheduled for tomorrow with NTManager10, which in a way is good, gives me time to cool off.

I always wonder to what extent incompetent people know they are incompetent.

I really think that most people are genuinely unaware. Not just of incompetence but of basically everything. I sometimes envy such a simple existence. It must be so much easier being a sheep. Occasionally getting dunked and shorn and actually enjoying it.

And thank you @Katleya, I was thinking "oh god not again", but actually, it does get better each time. It's no longer a case of "I can't believe this is happening to me" and "it's not fair", it's now business as usual!

I'm sure you'll find a diplomatic way to do it

Well, I'll see tomorrow. My ultimate plan is to eventually pay the mortgage off and become a children's book author. But until then, bills and hungry, hungry children keep me in the game. On the plus side, they inspire me to create characters for my books....

It also seems a lot of people instinctively hate us for having the "courage" not to play by the rules

I also think they have a natural inclination to hate people who don't conform, maybe it is some heard instinct or something.

It was likely because my husband had the best team, productive and loyal, in an area that brought in a great deal of income and he couldn't completely control my husband or the team.

I've lived that one too, glad I'm not alone. This was NTManager08 a few years ago.

don't talk to other colleagues about it

Sadly true. I need to remember this. It always makes things worse. There are a couple (literally a couple, like 2 in 10 years!) of people that I've learned to trust, that know I'm aspie and are fine with it. One of them is an aspie and we help each other out. I nudge him when he phases out at meetings and he nudges me when I'm smiling with (as he puts it) "too many teeth".

So let's see what tomorrow brings.

 

[spaceman]

If you get sick of the job, take up comedy or satire. And make a sketch about NTmanager10 et al.

 

[Katleya]

I really think that most people are genuinely unaware. Not just of incompetence but of basically everything. I sometimes envy such a simple existence. It must be so much easier being a sheep. Occasionally getting dunked and shorn and actually enjoying it.

And thank you @Katleya, I was thinking "oh god not again", but actually, it does get better each time. It's no longer a case of "I can't believe this is happening to me" and "it's not fair", it's now business as usual!

Yeah, sometimes, I envy them too... and then I remember I really like having analytical skills and challenging every single thing I come across, wondering how it works, how it could be improved, and so on.
Wishing you luck on tomorrow's meeting! The good thing is, you've been through it 9 times already, and he probably hasn't, so that's some competitive advantage for you to leverage

 

[wight]

Was thinking about you today, Bella...thought meeting was today? Glad you have time to cool off a little.

Can't say how many times I've had crappy, no account, backstabbing, politics playing, or otherwise terrible bosses. More often than not.

Agreed, most people are sheep and enjoy it. I'd rather be an unhappy wolf than a happy sheep, thank you very much.

 

[Gracey]

I wish you all the luck you'll need, if you're sure you'll need it. You go girl !

Sometimes,
just sometimes, it's about respecting the 'rank' and not necessarily the person.

I can't imagine you'd like to be his best friend if he's an Anker (silent W)

If you could do what he does much better and more professionally, apply for manager 11 position.

If you'd like to ask him his purpose with comments in emails and hearsay, take black and white proof and ask him to explain.
(Allow NO wiggle room, court of law type proof)

If you'd like to develop a working relationship for the sake of your own sanity and reduced stress levels, be sure you are actually always right first.
Be assertive because it's evident you are good at what you do and have been doing for many years but I'd be inclined to think that he also had to work his butt off to get where he is.

He won't view the world and the company in the same way you do. Frustration won't change that fact.

I can't teach you to suck eggs and I'm sure you'll have it all under control and find a way to move forward with this situation by the end of tomorrows meeting.

I'll be thinking of you, Best wishes.

 

[Bella Pines]

Well fancy that. The meeting went amazingly well! I've had similar confrontations with NTManagers 1 to 9, but somehow this was different. I think that maybe reading everyone's opinion and understanding more about what is happening turned it around. Instead of going into NTManager10's office and demanding that they justify themselves, or accusing them of various infractions and failures, I talked through the recent incidents constructively. I learnt a few managers ago not to use words like "idiotic" or "douchebag", but I think this is the first time that I've actually made an effort.

So I started out by saying that I wanted to clear a few things up. Not asking them to justify themselves or apologise, just asking NTM10 to "clarify".

I cited the examples and explained why they were unconstructive. I said that undermining me actually damages my ability to work outside the team, which is bad for both of us. I said that we need to present a united front if we are to be successful. I kept it positive and professional.

Then NTM10 explained some of the incidents. NTM10 said that really, they weren't about me and there were other factors. For example, by undermining me, they were trying to get another team to take on more responsibility. I don't have authority to sign contracts and the other team were not stepping up, so the incident was a way to say 'look, we can't do this, we need you to do it'. Now ironically, I've been trying to get them to do this for months, but they took the stance that I was perfectly capable of doing it and refused to get involved. Ultimately, the tactic was successful and my team have a more manageable workload, but didn't even notice any of this going on. And yes, I was still thrown under the bus, but at least NTM10 didn't deny it

I then turned it around and asked "is there anything that I do, that you'd like to raise?".

NTM10 said yes and listed a whole bunch of things, none of which were really a surprise
I'm patronising, dismissive and blunt. It seems that I concentrate so strongly on what I want to achieve, to the exclusion of everything and everyone else. NTM10 said that it looks like I've had a bunch of soft skill training and am applying it verbatim. They said that I'll sit in a meeting and listen to what someone is saying, I will nod and make the right noises and even ask questions. But it's like I have a 2 minute timer, and after that has expired I explode in a flurry of "I can't take any more of this" and change the subject back to something that I am interested in. And during that 2 minutes it's quite obvious that I am simply waiting for them to finish and perhaps encouraging them to speed up a bit!

NTM10 said that this can be really annoying, which is true. So I'm lucky they are self aware enough and were willing to be honest with me. I'm not sure any of my previous managers would have been capable of having this conversation.

So all in all, we cleared the air, I learned a few things and we are good. I doubt we'll ever be bffns (best friend for now, aspie equivalent to best friend forever) but I've probably bought about 6 more months off my favourite place in the office, the chopping block.

 

[Mattymatt]

And once again I find myself if the same old same old situation. On the outside, being singled out, being picked on. Oh deja vu my old friend.

So at work, I run several development teams globally, I've been in the industry for over 20 years and with my current company for over 10. I attend working groups that drive the entire industry and am very good at my specialized subject, which involves a lot of numbers and complexity. I get paid well for it.

However, still, STILL, after all this I get isolated and picked on. One of the managing directors took an instant dislike to me, no real reason. Let's call them NTManager10. NTManager10 has in the past described autistic/aspie characters in films as 'crazy people'. I don't think NTManager10 even knows why they hate me. For years they have tried to undermine me, demote me and generally move me as far away from them as physically and organizationally possible. This week I was forwarded a bunch of emails with references to "a jr member" (me), and saying things like "don't talk to her, talk to another person".

Nothing that NTManager10 has done is at all indefensible. When I raise it with colleagues, they all say that I am imagining it and that NTManager10 is wonderful. They are sure it's in my head, it's not.

And it's not the first time either. I've been through this loop with NTManagers 00 to 09 as well and I have no doubt that after this, there will be another one.

So. It's been boiling for a few months now. Today I am going to face NTManager10 and talk to them. I want to punch them, to say that I don't see them as "senior" in any way. I want to tell NTManager10 that they are an idiot and I can't bare to be in the same room as them. I want to tell them how bored I get during their motivational speeches, that serve only to motivate me to throw myself out the window. I want to shake them and tell them that sitting in an office is a pointless waste of time and that their precious job that they love so much is as empty as their head.

But I suspect that is why. I suspect that NTManager10 and all the previous NTManager iterations probably know that I think like this. My groans when a mandatory 'all hands' is announced, my eye rolls when a social is declared. They know I am different, that I don't follow the crowd and that scares and unnerves them. Ultimately they know that have no control or influence over me, if I do as they ask, it is an act, a choice.

So my aim today is to talk to NTManager10 and try to patch things over. Declare a truce. Find a common ground, and so long as I need a job to pay the bills, I will find a way to fit it. Again. I hate that I have to do this, but I've made a choice to live in NT society and so this is necessary at this time.

In retrospect, maybe this is a ranting room post!

I suspect NTMANAGER10 might feel threatened by you, your special interest, and your ability to complete complex tasks far more accurately than your peers. I failed miserably at navigating office politics. The unwritten rules and expectations of the workplace are absolutely an enigma (and an anethma.) I am very empathetic about your situation.

 

[Butterfly88]

Sorry to hear that. If it was me I'd talk to the human resources department. I think legally you'd have some protection.