Update!: Confused NT not wanting to dig a bigger hole

[Atrapa Almas]

Are you really unsinkable? The Titanic had some sort of separate bulkheads. It didin't work, but the theory had merit, sort of. What do you have?

Well, there are one part of the human spectrum who are virtually unsinkable. Brains who are wired that way are almost inmune to feel sorry, fear and depression. Also can feel a strong temporal desire to "own" certain people who catches their interest.

As in the case of autism having a bit of that in the brain recipe can be a significant advantage while going too deep may prove to have severe downsides (in this case mostly for their victims).

Not saying that is the case of Timo, as many people would take it as an insult the same way "autistic" is considered an insult to many others. I do not mean to insult here, just to add that people with some anti-social traits can be seen as unsikable by others and also be seen as too intense or somewhat menacing to go deeper on relations.

Again not saying that is Timo's case and not saying that the Antisocial part of the human spectrum is bad or wrong.

Mmm I cant predict if my post is helping or will become a problem. Im crossing my fingers.

 

[Timo_WA]

Well, there are one part of the human spectrum who are virtually unsinkable. Brains who are wired that way are almost inmune to feel sorry, fear and depression. Also can feel a strong temporal desire to "own" certain people who catches their interest.

As in the case of autism having a bit of that in the brain recipe can be a significant advantage while going too deep may prove to have severe downsides (in this case mostly for their victims).

Not saying that is the case of Timo, as many people would take it as an insult the same way "autistic" is considered an insult to many others. I do not mean to insult here, just to add that people with some anti-social traits can be seen as unsikable by others and also be seen as too intense or somewhat menacing to go deeper on relations.

Again not saying that is Timo's case and not saying that the Antisocial part of the human spectrum is bad or wrong.

Mmm I cant predict if my post is helping or will become a problem. Im crossing my fingers.

I love this! It's the sort of things I can't see without an outside perspective. I am not sure if it applies to me or not. I can say that I have never experienced depression, and that in itself seems like a super power. It's not that I don't feel things, and I can get really scared, and be deeply sorry and regretful, and I can get super focused on a single person at a time. I guess what I mean by unsinkable is I just have an undying guiding light that reminds me I will always come back to myself no matter what goes on around me.

But you're onto something with the lack of vulnerability I can display at times. I actually think I have been different than my normal self this time though, probably because it's all in text form and that is much easier for me to lay it all out. Not to mention he really only understands when you're as direct as possible, and it was kind of comforting in a way, that being so honest wasn't going to be used against me or seen as oversharing, instead it was understood and appreciated.

That doesn't mean that he didn't take my saying that I am unsinkable as me saying I am invulnerable while he's bleeding out in front of me every day.

 

[Thinx]

Thanks for taking the time to help. Yes, that was an actual phrase. It was never said before, and certainly never seemed that way until that day. He has had an overload on me before, but smaller, and when I contacted him and told him how I felt, he apologized and everything was great again. Said he wanted to try harder to not be so reactionary.

I really wish our messages weren't deleted, it would be easier to go back and see word for word what was said, but it's all gone now. I do remember one of the last things he said was "It's just who I am. I can be your best friend and then disappear for weeks or months. you shouldn't feel bad though". He just turned into a cold stranger. And then I gave it a day and I wrote back asking what happened, what it all means, and if he didn't want me to be a part of his everyday anymore, or if he wants me to go away altogether, and the only response I got was that my asking all these questions after only a day "proves that I am too close." Personally, all I think it proves is that I care and that I don't like being dropped and confused, but everyone has their perspective.

I have never been any closer than he is. He leads, so if he is panicking because I am too close, that was his own doing. I reciprocate, I don't push. The night before he was very vulnerable and open, and it was a happy day, laughing and joking and just being close friends, and the next day was a stone wall.

I mean, I am ok. I will be ok, but his change came before I mentioned that, and I only did because I was worried that he was going back to that same thinking that he will 'sink me'. Ironically, he's only sinking himself. He is currently on an open forum talking about how lonely he is. I can't wrap my head around it. My NT brain felt like he needed assurance that he's not a burden to me, but it seemed to make it worse, and he turned it around like I am the burden to him, giving him anxiety. Until this point, all he's ever said is how much he likes having me around and how I am comfortable and safe.

Sorry about the novel. :lol: I hate being confused.

Edit: The very last thing that was said to me when he was responding (or not responding, really) to the questions I had was "don't get too close to me. I will push you away. And eventually run away". But I haven't pushed anything. Ever. Unless he counts asking him wtf just happened as pushing.

Some of what you quote here from him is ultra clear and fits the situation. He has done as he said. He didn't say it would be because you pushed, but I also think you are maybe missing the point that achieving the level of closeness you and he did was eventually out of his comfort zone. Not because you pushed, but because he doesn't usually get that far and his own insecurities made him shut down.

(Or, he could be a bit like @SusanLR , but he seems to say differently. In terms of his hopes I mean.)

And/or, could it be he actually felt frustrated that there was nowhere your mutual friendship could go, easily, plus lacked the confidence or ability to articulate that? Like, Timo_WA is so cool, but I can't take it further and there's no future here...?

But, another issue I think a lot of people aren't aware of, is that autistic people are similarly affected by the much researched processes involved in human developmental attachments, where we all, neurotypical or neurodiverse have a level of developing relational security we can see as on an attachment quadrant.

So, like there's notionally a field we are all in at any one time and likely it's also variable in relation to specific others we are relating with, where we operate from a secure to insecure stance, which is also characterised by what our strategies have been, or had to be, in relating to others from earliest childhood. You can find a diagram and lots of information on this by googling attachment styles, though quality of information varies.

This attachment style we develop can be further developed towards more secure relating at later points, given the right circumstances. It is often said that autism is neurological, not a mental health condition, and as such is not changeable. However this is also true of neurotypicality. In neither case does it mean the person can't change significant aspects of themselves through developmental life experiences, educational personal development, or therapy, for example.

So, our backgrounds and parenting will be formative for us, in many ways and certainly in terms of how far we feel confident in making attachments. We can all progress towards greater security in relating. It probably goes without saying that the more insecure we are, the less easy it is to see that that could be the case for us. This is where sustained supportive relating from someone and perhaps therapeutic support can be helpful.

There could be more you may want to look into about attachment security and relating, to further extend your ability to be a secure base for someone, and understand all the varied factors involved.

 

[Storm Hess]

For me personally, I would fall very quickly and intensely into a relationship. To me, that's what love means...completely. After being burned and discarded so many times, I went from being completely open to completely closed. Maybe the person's history has something to do with it.

The more you push to find out the reason, the more they may push away in response. That's how I am now...I will push further away the more someone persists. For me, it's a defensive maneuver...it also helps when situations become too much to handle and I need to decompress. I can't handle processing someone else's feelings when I have a hard enough time with my own. Your situation may have nothing to do with you, but with how the other is processing what's going on. I don't know...just some of my life experience that may be relevant.

 

[Timo_WA]

Some of what you quote here from him is ultra clear and fits the situation. He has done as he said. He didn't say it would be because you pushed, but I also think you are maybe missing the point that achieving the level of closeness you and he did was eventually out of his comfort zone. Not because you pushed, but because he doesn't usually get that far and his own insecurities made him shut down.

(Or, he could be a bit like @SusanLR , but he seems to say differently. In terms of his hopes I mean.)

And/or, could it be he actually felt frustrated that there was nowhere your mutual friendship could go, easily, plus lacked the confidence or ability to articulate that? Like, Timo_WA is so cool, but I can't take it further and there's no future here...?

But, another issue I think a lot of people aren't aware of, is that autistic people are similarly affected by the much researched processes involved in human developmental attachments, where we all, neurotypical or neurodiverse have a level of developing relational security we can see as on an attachment quadrant.

So, like there's notionally a field we are all in at any one time and likely it's also variable in relation to specific others we are relating with, where we operate from a secure to insecure stance, which is also characterised by what our strategies have been, or had to be, in relating to others from earliest childhood. You can find a diagram and lots of information on this by googling attachment styles, though quality of information varies.

This attachment style we develop can be further developed towards more secure relating at later points, given the right circumstances. It is often said that autism is neurological, not a mental health condition, and as such is not changeable. However this is also true of neurotypicality. In neither case does it mean the person can't change significant aspects of themselves through developmental life experiences, educational personal development, or therapy, for example.

So, our backgrounds and parenting will be formative for us, in many ways and certainly in terms of how far we feel confident in making attachments. We can all progress towards greater security in relating. It probably goes without saying that the more insecure we are, the less easy it is to see that that could be the case for us. This is where sustained supportive relating from someone and perhaps therapeutic support can be helpful.

There could be more you may want to look into about attachment security and relating, to further extend your ability to be a secure base for someone, and understand all the varied factors involved.

Wow, all of that was incredible, thank you. And as you can probably predict, his parents were neglectful and awful and are no longer in his life, so I am sure you're right. I've got some reading to do.

 

[Timo_WA]

For me personally, I would fall very quickly and intensely into a relationship. To me, that's what love means...completely. After being burned and discarded so many times, I went from being completely open to completely closed. Maybe the person's history has something to do with it.

The more you push to find out the reason, the more they may push away in response. That's how I am now...I will push further away the more someone persists. For me, it's a defensive maneuver...it also helps when situations become too much to handle and I need to decompress. I can't handle processing someone else's feelings when I have a hard enough time with my own. Your situation may have nothing to do with you, but with how the other is processing what's going on. I don't know...just some of my life experience that may be relevant.

I definitely think you're right. That's why I am leaving him alone. Some of the things he said definitely gave me the impression that he doesn't have the bandwidth to process himself, let alone me. I am ok with that. My only worry is that if I leave it long enough, his anxiety will get the best of him and he will think I have bailed on him and I am literally his only consistent friend. Is there anything that works to reassure you in that situation that won't feel like I am pushing or invading his space?

 

[Storm Hess]

When my wife becomes too difficult for me to understand, I need downtime...alone-time. When I decompress enough, I can normally greet her again with hugs and silence. Sometimes, it takes me days of not speaking at all with limited interaction. Yes, I have days where I don't speak at all because I just can't. Just knowing that you're there with no expectations, is a great comfort. He will come around if he feels the need to do so. Just be there for him...let him know that he can reach out to you...and not rush him to do so. If he's comfortable enough, he may reach out to you. That's how it's been for me...it maybe different for him. Hope that helped.

 

[Timo_WA]

When my wife becomes too difficult for me to understand, I need downtime...alone-time. When I decompress enough, I can normally greet her again with hugs and silence. Sometimes, it takes me days of not speaking at all with limited interaction. Yes, I have days where I don't speak at all because I just can't. Just knowing that you're there with no expectations, is a great comfort. He will come around if he feels the need to do so. Just be there for him...let him know that he can reach out to you...and not rush him to do so. If he's comfortable enough, he may reach out to you. That's how it's been for me...it maybe different for him. Hope that helped.

It does. Just knowing that this is a normal thing helps a lot, so thank you for sharing.

 

[Storm Hess]

You're welcome.

 

[1ForAll]

You seem like a nice person, and I can empathize with your situation. As hard as it to think the other one could need something from us that they cannot express, try to let their actions speak volumes when their words cannot. It is not your job to do too much to make some friendship or more work, or to assume he wants anything more than he has shown most recently. For those on the Spectrum who showed past more ability in some certain way, that does not mean that was them, or that was sustainable or really what they wanted, needed or could handle before.

The bottom line is, I feel if you have to worry about stepping on his toes when you are being yourself and caring, with you possibly thinking he needs more or fear he could run away, a longer term relationship of any sort was likely never meant to be anyway. It's better to understand certain distancing behaviors and lack of empathy "shown" like this now, than for you to invest so much time, effort and energy into someone and getting too attached, then him bolting then. The truth is what good is empathy, loyalty, love and caring, if it can not be shown by the other side, too, or if that other sees that as causing them distress?

I think from what I heard so far, if he truly wants to continue his communications with you like before, it should be his responsibility and efforts to make this happen, as he has shown he is doing what is best for him and what he can only handle. You tried doing what you thought could be best for him, and for you both, but that did not work. It is not your duty to do anything more than you have done so far, and if anything, he may or may not have appreciated, understood or accepted those efforts anyway. If any type of relationship will be lasting, he has to show more efforts and desires there, once you showed that interest.

From what it seems, he wants contacts with persons not on any deep or necessary lasting level, more so than any type of commitment. So, if he claims loneliness, he needs to be more self aware that he is partially if not mostly responsible there in pushing others away when he runs away or cannot communicate or express to others to make some relationship last. If those with any condition are either self absorbed, cannot either help themselves, or if they are not motivated or functional enough to handle stress on their own, I feel most would fail at lasting relationships, unless that other had super empathy, positive ways, and compatible abilities.

Successful relationships often involve lots of give and take, unselfishness, functional compatibility, understanding and appreciation of each other, and compromise, and yet if one needs important relationship things done in only certain ways or to only certain levels of closeness, or if one cannot tolerate closer attachments, or if their focus seems mainly on themselves and what they need, or if one or more is lacking in communication, or in expressing caring and showing loyalty and strength, having to bolt when too much emotion or sensory issues are involved, does one actually think most type of those relationships would last? There are many with Autism who could succeed in relationships, but many who would not.

 

[Timo_WA]

You seem like a nice person, and I can empathize with your situation. As hard as it to think the other one could need something from us that they cannot express, try to let their actions speak volumes when their words cannot. It is not your job to do too much to make some friendship or more work, or to assume he wants anything more than he has shown most recently. For those on the Spectrum who showed past more ability in some certain way, that does not mean that was them, or that was sustainable or really what they wanted, needed or could handle before.

The bottom line is, I feel if you have to worry about stepping on his toes when you are being yourself and caring, with you possibly thinking he needs more or fear he could run away, a longer term relationship of any sort was likely never meant to be anyway. It's better to understand certain distancing behaviors and lack of empathy "shown" like this now, than for you to invest so much time, effort and energy into someone and getting too attached, then him bolting then. The truth is what good is empathy, loyalty, love and caring, if it can not be shown by the other side, too, or if that other sees that as causing them distress?

I think from what I heard so far, if he truly wants to continue his communications with you like before, it should be his responsibility and efforts to make this happen, as he has shown he is doing what is best for him and what he can only handle. You tried doing what you thought could be best for him, and for you both, but that did not work. It is not your duty to do anything more than you have done so far, and if anything, he may or may not have appreciated, understood or accepted those efforts anyway. If any type of relationship will be lasting, he has to show more efforts and desires there, once you showed that interest.

From what it seems, he wants contacts with persons not on any deep or necessary lasting level, more so than any type of commitment. So, if he claims loneliness, he needs to be more self aware that he is partially if not mostly responsible there in pushing others away when he runs away or cannot communicate or express to others to make some relationship last. If those with any condition are either self absorbed, cannot either help themselves, or if they are not motivated or functional enough to handle stress on their own, I feel most would fail at lasting relationships, unless that other had super empathy, positive ways, and compatible abilities.

Successful relationships often involve lots of give and take, unselfishness, functional compatibility, understanding and appreciation of each other, and compromise, and yet if one needs important relationship things done in only certain ways or to only certain levels of closeness, or if one cannot tolerate closer attachments, or if their focus seems mainly on themselves and what they need, or if one or more is lacking in communication, or in expressing caring and showing loyalty and strength, having to bolt when too much emotion or sensory issues are involved, does one actually think most type of those relationships would last? There are many with Autism who could succeed in relationships, but many who would not.

That is absolutely brilliant. And you're so so so right. It's just really sad to think of someone who wants that more than anything, and is just completely incapable. I know it's not my job to hold anyone together though, nor is that even possible. Thanks so much for this super thoughtful response.

 

[1ForAll]

That is absolutely brilliant. And you're so so so right. It's just really sad to think of someone who wants that more than anything, and is just completely incapable. I know it's not my job to hold anyone together though, nor is that even possible. Thanks so much for this super thoughtful response.

Thanks! I agree that I wish he could have showed more, and to see that you could have really helped with that loneliness if he would ever have been wanting, needing or able to give you that chance. The good news is there are lots of single, strong, intelligent and caring persons who would very much appreciate the qualities you seem to have, give reciprocal efforts there, and so I have much hope for you there. Whether the person has Autism or not, there are lots of persons that have or are looking for the same good qualities that you deserve and need.

 

[Suzette]

His anxiety is definitely triggered. He has had girlfriends in the past, he's not completely inexperienced. I let him lead everything and it's not intimate in a sexual way. Just in a close, human way, and he's the one who took it there. It has been a pretty close relationship from the start, but I guess this week did end up on a deeper level, that's why it's jarring. That level of comfort in an NT relationship of any kind indicates you've got a secure friend for life. To delete all of our chat history feels like he doesn't want to see what it was, and he wants to believe if for how he thinks it was instead. I just don't know what to think.

Emotional intimacy means bareing your "dirty laundry", so to speak. It can make one feel particularly vulnerable because you don't really know if you can trust the other person or not. So the impulse to deny the increasing intimacy makes sense as a self protecting measure.

And you can't force the issue because pressure to trust just back fires. Especially if this person feels that they can't trust their own perceptions.

In otherwords, it's not you, it's them.

 

[PinkPhilodendron]

So from what I read, I can imagine myself in his place pretty well.
Perhaps there are similarities?
If I was him, and if I would have acted the way he did, I would have done that because you have gotten too close and I would have gotten scared (panic). I have deleted complete chats and usernames and email-adresses and stuff out of fear in the past. I just got a new mobile phone number because of fear of contact..so yeah, been there.
You contacting me, even you just worrying about me, and also you having a hard time coping with even a day of absence would reinforce my feeling that you need more closeness than I could ever give to you. Alone that thought of the existence of your worries and your need for closeness would exhaust me enough to break off contact. You would exhaust me without even being in contact with me. From the other end of the world.
So, for your both sakes, I hope this is not the situation and that he will be able to come back to you.
I wish you the best of luck in the world, you sound like a beautiful person, you deserve happiness, and somebody who will appreciate all that you seem to be able to give.

 

[Timo_WA]

So from what I read, I can imagine myself in his place pretty well.
Perhaps there are similarities?
If I was him, and if I would have acted the way he did, I would have done that because you have gotten too close and I would have gotten scared (panic). I have deleted complete chats and usernames and email-adresses and stuff out of fear in the past. I just got a new mobile phone number because of fear of contact..so yeah, been there.
You contacting me, even you just worrying about me, and also you having a hard time coping with even a day of absence would reinforce my feeling that you need more closeness than I could ever give to you. Alone that thought of the existence of your worries and your need for closeness would exhaust me enough to break off contact. You would exhaust me without even being in contact with me. From the other end of the world.
So, for your both sakes, I hope this is not the situation and that he will be able to come back to you.
I wish you the best of luck in the world, you sound like a beautiful person, you deserve happiness, and somebody who will appreciate all that you seem to be able to give.

That's so difficult. This my be a dumb question, but what is scary?

I can see some of this in him, definitely. Are you ever the one to initiate and push for the closeness and then freak yourself out, or are you not interested in it at all? I only ever match behavior, I never initiate. He was the one offering, and I am accepting, if that makes sense. I was never looking for a close relationship. I am happy talking about movies, or books, or food or whatever. He was the one opening up, being vulnerable without my asking, asking if I would hug him if we were in the same room. I never took it there. I reciprocated, for sure, but it was never something I required, or even offered without being put there myself.

I appreciate your well wishes. Everyone here has been so sweet.

 

[Timo_WA]

I have done something similar before, it sounds stupid but I met someone I really liked. And then I realized I was probably not good enough for that person, she was out of my league. So I left. I wanted to avoid confirmation that I was right I think. I don`t know what happened to you, it`s difficult to tell. But I do know that if someone said "that they don't worry about other people, only themself", I would say bye.

I tend to agree with your last line in principle. But self destructive people tend to say stuff they don't mean sometimes (that alone is arguably enough to say bye). Or maybe I am just blind and don't want to believe it I know he cares. He does nice things for people all the time and tries to help others with their issues. If he didn't worry, I wouldn't think he would have told me that he doesn't want to sink me (previous conversation when he ran away before). But at this point, I have no freaking clue.

 

[Timo_WA]

I would be confused too, everything was fine one day and the next day he deleted you? It`s strange, something changed but I don`t know what.

Well, no. I am not blocked, or even unfriended. He did delete our chat history though, which deletes it for me as well. On the platform we use, once you block someone, you can't undo it. So at least part of him doesn't want to close that door.

I actually got a notification today that he liked one of my posts. But when I go into the post, the like is gone. Looks like he had a change of heart. I am so lost, y'all. But that's ok, he knows where to find me. My only worry is that he thinks I am mad or he feels guilty about coming back or something.

But yes, one day we were bffs, everything was great, the next was a stone wall with no incident in between.

 

[Timo_WA]

It sounds to me like he is having problems with something and it might not be you doing something wrong. Could you ask him? I mean, explain the situation, that you are not upset, just very confused and would like to keep in touch and you hope he wants that too. For example.

Well, the last time I tried to talk to him and said something similar to that (5 days ago), he clearly did not want to talk about it, or to me. He said that my need to talk to him so soon after him saying he will run away if I push was proving that he was right about me being too close. In my mind, I didn't NEED to talk to him. My wiring says "something is wrong, find out what it is, fix it. Why not just fix something that is wrong?", which just happens to be the opposite of what his wiring says which is, "leave me the hell alone, your presence is giving me anxiety, I might speak to you in 2 weeks, and I can't explain what's wrong right now".

I will probably give it another week, see what his behavior is like on the app, if he's still reading my stuff or reacting to it and then think about just saying hey.

 

[Timo_WA]

I won't bother you again

You haven't bothered me. Quite the opposite. I appreciate all the responses. Sorry I missed yours!

 

[PinkPhilodendron]

That's so difficult. This my be a dumb question, but what is scary?

I can see some of this in him, definitely. Are you ever the one to initiate and push for the closeness and then freak yourself out, or are you not interested in it at all? I only ever match behavior, I never initiate. He was the one offering, and I am accepting, if that makes sense. I was never looking for a close relationship. I am happy talking about movies, or books, or food or whatever. He was the one opening up, being vulnerable without my asking, asking if I would hug him if we were in the same room. I never took it there. I reciprocated, for sure, but it was never something I required, or even offered without being put there myself.

I appreciate your well wishes. Everyone here has been so sweet.

The intimacy is scary. For example I have issues imagining feelings. I do not know If I want to do something in the future if I have not tried it out before. So I have to do it to find out if I Like it. So I might look forward to trying it Out and then when I finally do it I might freak out because it turns out to fill me with fear....
It's hard to tell what his underlying fear is. Everyone is different. For me there are many layers of fear that I feel when I get close to somebody...

And yes, I initiate. I am a strong initiator. In the beginning of my last relationship my boyfriend was only allowed to touch me when I initiated by touching him. And even then I sometimes freaked out and had him stop as it got overwhelming and we had to stop completely with the touching (for some time).
You reciprocating might also be too much if he feels that you are copying him. That makes your behaviour dependant on him. Perhaps it would help if you just did what you like...without him...