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The workforce is equalizing!

The first source I linked in post number four addresses what you are talking about and goes more in depth on the issue.

I think it would be most useful for you to provide any sources here in the discussion rather than in a direct message.

It is very important that women of color are not excluded from the category of “women” in this discussion. Until their pay is equal to that of white men, there is no “equalization” in the workforce.

I'm not going to track down all the sources right away just for this thread.

This is highly politicized, and the amount of false information in the real world isn't an accident. But I know how and why those numbers should be corrected. It's what I did for a living before I got into IT (not a coincidence - even then we needed computers to do the "statistical heavy lifting").

I already explained at an "AF-appropriate level" how the raw data is being selectively presented to support biased conclusions. And what should be done to provide an accurate picture.
Fortunately it's easy to find highly summarized corrected data (i.e. that the actual pay gap after correction is tiny - that claimed 80-odd percent becomes 99%).

So my facts are clear, and it's easy for anyone to verify.

It is very important that women of color are not excluded from the category of “women” in this discussion. Until their pay is equal to that of white men, there is no “equalization” in the workforce.

I didn't exclude WOCs. I mentioned them after you you played the 'Apex Fallacy" card, and moved the discussion from XX/XY to the the most extreme category (XX POC), with the embedded assumption that race is a causal factor rather than correlated with something else.
Until their pay is equal to that of white men, there is no “equalization” in the workforce.

You've selected (inappropriately) by race only. It's popular OFC, but it's not a "natural" categorization for income. Income is most easily predicted by education. Amusingly, education is a domain were white males have been genuinely oppressed in 21st century USA.

To usefully split by race under income, you need a separate rationale: you have to prove that most bias "under" income is due to "race". You can't, because it's not a direct cause: it's separately correlated with something else (see below).

Here's something to help frame it - but I suggest that discussing your approach to categorization further would become a different discussion, and perhaps should be a different thread.

So:
1. Using race is already an issue, because it's not the best predictor of economic success (education correlates better).
2. White males are not the best paid group even if you only select by race. 'Asian" and "Indian" are both higher up the median income scale.
NB: 'Asians" is a very broad category. Technically it includes the Indian sub-content too, but they are usually called 'South Asian".
Slice/dice the others by income and you find a skew towards Chinese, Japanese, and Korean genetics and culture).
3, If you exclude education by calling it a symptom, culture is a much better predictor of economic success than "race" (genetics). Which is apparently (**) visible if you split POC into the largest categories (US, African, Caribbean). This is good evidence that culture is a significant factor.

PS
OFC I'm aware that the meta-discussion in society as a whole about these things is closer to what you've presented. That doesn't make it correct though.
And there a "hard edge" to it. It's in the political space, so I won't discuss it here, but one thought:

In a healthy, growing economy, with a healthy political dialog, managing income disparities is not a "zero-sum-game. Higher earned incomes for every earner makes things better for everyone.

Suppressing one group to benefit another has the opposite effect. In both the political and the economic domains.

(**)
I've never seen raw data supporting the cultural differences between those three somewhat similar groups within the US, but I've heard/seen it mentioned often, and it's consistent with my personal experience.
 
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Men are more aggressive and competitive usually, so that should be taken in account with 'pay gap' i guess because that means they fight more to get raises etc.
 
Men are more aggressive and competitive usually, so that should be taken in account with 'pay gap' i guess because that means they fight more to get raises etc.
That's likely, but hard to measure OFC.

It was widely considered to be the main remaining reason when the gap was about 5%.
 
Men are more aggressive and competitive usually, so that should be taken in account with 'pay gap' i guess because that means they fight more to get raises etc.
That has not been my experience as an autistic, even when I was the "guru."
(Motorola only gave us raises so we would not jump to better offers from their competitors.)
 
Men are more aggressive and competitive usually, so that should be taken in account with 'pay gap' i guess because that means they fight more to get raises etc.

Reminds me of a disgruntled co-worker who had enough, and went directly to the branch manager to request a raise.

It was sad to watch with the door open. One of those times when body language and facial gestures said a lot. The poor fellow left without a dime more on his paycheck. As if he had one whopping tail, whipping back and forth- between his legs.
 
As women working increases, I wonder, is there also an increase in "stay-at-home" men, "stay-at-home" fathers?

In Canada, yes,

"In 1976, stay-at-home fathers accounted for approximately 1 in 70 of all Canadian families with a stay-at-home parent. By 2015, the proportion had risen to about 1 in 10."

In terms of raw numbers, it was about 20,000 in 1976 and 50,000 in 2015.

Changing profile of stay-at-home parents

Canada's population was 23 million in 1976 and 35 million in 2015, so the increase in stay at home fathers (+150%) has outpaced population growth (+50%).

But 50,000 out of 35 million remains a very small proportion of the population (1:700).

In Canada, we have maternity benefits for birth parents and parental benefits which can be shared by any of the parents.

Most birth parents claim all of the parental benefits, though the number of non birth parents claiming any number of weeks of parental benefits has increased.

This increase appears to have been more significant since 2019, when an additional 5 weeks of parental leave was introduced for non-birth parents on a take-it-or-lose-it basis to encourage fathers to spend time with their newborns.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/89-28-0001/2022001/article/00010-eng.htm
 

If I may, here's some Canadian stats on the topic.

The gender wage gap narrowed between 2007 and 2022 but remained sizeable.

The gender wage gap between Canadian-born men and women narrowed by 5.9 percentage points. Canadian-born women earned 9.2% less than their male counterparts in 2022 down from 15.0% in 2007.

Immigrant women landing as children narrowed their gap with Canadian-born men by 4.2 percentage points from 14.7% in 2007 to 10.5% in 2022.

The wage gap between Canadian-born men and Indigenous women narrowed by 7.1 percentage points from 27.2% in 2007 to 20.1% in 2022.

Immigrant women landing as adults narrowed their gap with Canadian-born men by 6.5 percentage points from 27.4% in 2007 to 20.9% in 2022.

Intersectional Perspective on the Canadian Gender Wage Gap
 
I imagine the number has increased. But most men I know are not interested in being stay and home dads. For me personally, I wouldn't want to be a full time stay at home dad. No one would want me to be their primary caregiver, lol. I'm much more suited for the working world, although that is no picnic either. I don't think society as figured out how to handle both women and men working and trying to raise families at the same time. There only is so much time and resources. Thus, people don't want to have children anymore. Sad, but seems to be the current realty.

Nannies at home and affordable and convenient daycare and childcare facilities for everyone else would help young families raise their children. Once kids reach school age, parents have more free time to work.
 
Men are more aggressive and competitive usually, so that should be taken in account with 'pay gap' i guess because that means they fight more to get raises etc.
Maybe and those character traits come in different guises. Perhaps men can be more direct and are more inclined to overate their competence, as a group.
 
Reminds me of a disgruntled co-worker who had enough, and went directly to the branch manager to request a raise.

It was sad to watch with the door open. One of those times when body language and facial gestures said a lot. The poor fellow left without a dime more on his paycheck. As if he had one whopping tail, whipping back and forth- between his legs.
I interpreted NB79's comment to mean that some men may have gone the extra mile because of their competitive nature.
More diligence beyond the call of duty and longer hours, sort of thing.

Are men more competitive than women?​

This study uses competition diaries to see whether women and men differ in (a) what they compete over, (b) whom they compete with, and (c) their competitive tactics, including use of aggression. In Study 1, university students kept diaries of their competitive interactions during the term. Sex differences, few overall, were as follows: (a) men's diaries contained more same-sex competition, (b) women competed more about looking attractive whereas men competed more about sports, and (c) men used physical (but not verbal) aggression more frequently than women.
In Study 2 strength of competition was also measured by questionnaire. Women and men felt equally competitive overall, but men felt more competitive about athletics and sexual attention whereas women felt more competitive about looking attractive. In men, but not women, competitiveness for financial success was correlated with various aspects of mating competition. Young men were more competitive than older men in a variety of domains and were also more physically and verbally aggressive, but no age difference in aggression was found for women.
Are men more competitive than women? - PubMed

Assuming some validity in the research:
I wonder if instinctual needs have something to do with financial/wealth success desire/emphasis?
I.E. Historically, men were the aggressive hunters.

 
I.E. Historically, men were the aggressive hunters.
This part I think is valid. In the lower echelon jobs differences aren't so obvious but when you get in to the higher echelons such as a senior sales rep or senior management then ability to do the job is not the only consideration an employer has. They're looking for strength of character and force of character and in that area most women just can't compete.

That's by no means all women, I've met quite a few women that have more balls than I've got and that's saying something, but in general averages more men than women present these characteristics so more men end up with those jobs.

The idea of a "glass ceiling" is a conspiracy theory.

There's a now famous speech by Australia's only female Prime Minister Julia Gillard about misogyny, I can't post it in here but I recommend you have a look at it if you want to see a woman with a forceful character. Personally I never liked her but I did admire her.
 
This part I think is valid. In the lower echelon jobs differences aren't so obvious but when you get in to the higher echelons such as a senior sales rep or senior management then ability to do the job is not the only consideration an employer has. They're looking for strength of character and force of character and in that area most women just can't compete.

That's by no means all women, I've met quite a few women that have more balls than I've got
Absolutely.
Any objective/rational person would agree.
"When you meet one woman, you have met one woman." lol
Thatcher comes to mind.

and that's saying something, but in general averages more men than women present these characteristics so more men end up with those jobs.
This is my belief, also.

The idea of a "glass ceiling" is a conspiracy theory.

There's a now famous speech by Australia's only female Prime Minister Julia Gillard about misogyny, I can't post it in here but I recommend you have a look at it if you want to see a woman with a forceful character. Personally I never liked her but I did admire her.
I liked and respected her in most situations.
The misogyny speech was not one of those times. :cool:
 
I interpreted NB79's comment to mean that some men may have gone the extra mile because of their competitive nature.
More diligence beyond the call of duty and longer hours, sort of thing.

Are men more competitive than women? - PubMed

Assuming some validity in the research:
I wonder if instinctual needs have something to do with financial/wealth success desire/emphasis?
I.E. Historically, men were the aggressive hunters.

The second spoiler has some interesting "tells", bit this is the standout:
... Women and men felt equally competitive overall, but men felt more competitive about athletics and sexual attention whereas women felt more competitive about looking attractive. .

As written, it's assigns a mating purpose to male competition, but not female attractiveness /lol.

This has been studied: women compete with each other for multiple things (not least the XX in-group pecking orders) but they definitely compete in appearance as a mating strategy. Fake youth, height, body proportions, etc.
This is very easy to observe IRL, but discussion is suppressed /lol.

They do score points for saying that XX and XY compete equally, and are equally aggressive, but in different ways.
So that "tell" could be an inadvertent error.
 
The second spoiler has some interesting "tells", bit this is the standout:
... Women and men felt equally competitive overall, but men felt more competitive about athletics and sexual attention whereas women felt more competitive about looking attractive. .

As written, it's assigns a mating purpose to male competition, but not female attractiveness /lol.

This has been studied: women compete with each other for multiple things (not least the XX in-group pecking orders) but they definitely compete in appearance as a mating strategy. Fake youth, height, body proportions, etc.
This is very easy to observe IRL, but discussion is suppressed /lol.

They do score points for saying that XX and XY compete equally, and are equally aggressive, but in different ways.
So that "tell" could be an inadvertent error.
The emphasis in this thread is financial considerations, hence my bolding of that content.
 
The emphasis in this thread is financial considerations, hence my bolding of that content.
True. I don't think my perspective is off topic for the thread, but I agree it's a detour :)

But the core claim of the OP isn't actually supported by the facts for much the same reason as that "tell" I highlighted: incorrectly assigning (or not assigning) a cause/effect relationship to imperfect data.

It has certainly been true in the past that women have been less aggressive in negotiating for raises (this might be changing OFC - the "strong independent" side says it should be, the "victims of oppression" side says not).

But if assertiveness in negotiation income is considered to be part of the story, the other contributing factor have to be introduced too.

Which has the interesting (and arguably thread subverting) effect of reducing the actual income gap to lower than the measurement error /lol.
 
True. I don't think my perspective is off topic for the thread, but I agree it's a detour :)

But the core claim of the OP isn't actually supported by the facts for much the same reason as that "tell" I highlighted: incorrectly assigning (or not assigning) a cause/effect relationship to imperfect data.

It has certainly been true in the past that women have been less aggressive in negotiating for raises (this might be changing OFC - the "strong independent" side says it should be, the "victims of oppression" side says not).

But if assertiveness in negotiation income is considered to be part of the story, the other contributing factor have to be introduced too.

Which has the interesting (and arguably thread subverting) effect of reducing the actual income gap to lower than the measurement error /lol.
Well, there seem to be two main directions of thought concerning the reason for the wage gap.
Aggressive bargaining and proactive determinism.
I was focusing on the latter. :cool:
 
I believe, i mean myself i'm too passive, but i think men, have this more initiative or more invention, i mean people that have an idea and work towards it, put a garage or something and starts doing things.
 

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