Suck it up, buttercup

[pamelaperejil]

I'm torn between the two points of view: 1) that Aspies face special challenges and are misunderstood and undervalued by NTs and need to be given a break/special tolerance sometimes ...and... 2) that life just isn't fair and you need to pony up and do whatever it takes to succeed at life in the rat race. The first point of view seems to plead a special case for Aspies, to "give them a pass" on certain behaviors. The second seems intolerant and harsh, and is perhaps an unreachable reality for many Aspies.

What do you think? Which of these two points of view do you lean towards? Does that make you feel guilty? How much tolerance or how much of a leg up should we expect from neurotypicals? Is there an "us versus them" mentality? Is this a civil rights issue? Is it an Aspies-need-to-learn-to-live-in-the-real-world issue?

What do you think about this piece:
The Discovery Of Aspie Criteria
http://www.tonyattwood.com.au/index...79:the-discovery-of-aspie-criteria&Itemid=181

Or this one:
Neurodiversity: the key that unlocked my world

 

[Nitro]

First of all, i'd be willing to bet that most NTs wouldn't have a clue as to what your actual neurology was, so from there you may be able to gather my opinion.

 

[pamelaperejil]

I'm sorry. I'm afraid I can't (gather your opinion). Are you offended that I said "we" when I'm not sure I'm autistic?

 

[Nitro]

I'm sorry. I'm afraid I can't (gather your opinion).

I don't play the victim game.

NTs do not have a special stamp on their forehead or a secret look they give each other so they can automatically know they are capable of certain performance.

When it comes to work, either you are qualified and can do the work or you don't get the position.

All people regardless of neurology have to learn to live in this world.

 

[SunnyDay16]

I think there should be a middle ground. Both NTs and aspies should compromise for each other.

 

[pamelaperejil]

Thank you for clarifying. I hope I haven't offended you. I'm going forward under the assumption that I did not and that you're just being candid.

If you don't mind, do you believe that playing the social game badly falls under the category of "not being qualified to do the work"? It is said (at least where i live) that you can't be discriminated against for a job that you are able to do "with or without reasonable accomodations". In your opinion, what is a "reasonable accomodation" with respect to Aspergers/ high functioning autism in the workplace? Or do deficits in social skills/thoery of mind not qualify for special accomodations?

Not snark or a baited question. I'm sincerely curious.

 

[Nihil]

I don't actually care that much if another Aspie chooses not to go the "real world" route. It's their life, and they're not my responsibility, are they? They're allowed to make their own "mistakes". If they want help, I'll give them some help. If they don't, nothing I can do.

 

[Nitro]

I'm sorry. I'm afraid I can't (gather your opinion). Are you offended that I said "we" when I'm not sure I'm autistic?

No, I'm not offended by anything you posted.

 

[Tom]

I'm in the pull yourself up by one eyelid, cat eat dog, claw your way to the top and step on a few faces if you have to, camp. Well its not so much a 'camp' as a messy slaughterhouse.

Kidding. Mostly. I do in fact lean towards the suck it up and get on with it. This is because I think 99% of the rest of the people are too busy with their own problems to help or even care about yours. However, with the other 1% you can sometimes establish good relationships involving understanding and compromises, that allow you to be closer to yourself without the negative aspects.

 

[Nitro]

Thank you for clarifying. I hope I haven't offended you. I'm going forward under the assumption that I did not and that you're just being candid.

If you don't mind, do you believe that playing the social game badly falls under the category of "not being qualified to do the work"? It is said (at least where i live) that you can't be discriminated against for a job that you are able to do "with or without reasonable accomodations". In your opinion, what is a "reasonable accomodation" with respect to Aspergers/ high functioning autism in the workplace? Or do deficits in social skills/thoery of mind not qualify for special accomodations?

Not snark or a baited question. I'm sincerely curious.

I managed to make it in this world for quite some time before I was even aware of the mechanism behind my abilities.

There wasn't a vast knowledge of the autism spectrum and all my parents had to rely on was what they figured out on their own, just like raising any child would require.

The only way you will gain accommodations for deficits is if you declare up front that you require them which in some cases will leave you on the outside looking in.

Is it fair? No, but it is life.

Do you really want to be labeled as inferior to many in their eyes because they don't understand why you should get "special" treatment?

many on the spectrum carve their own niches by employing themselves, or take positions where they can work isolated from others.

If you can't hack a noisy,friendly associated environment, then that job probably isn't a good fit and you should look elsewhere for work.

We are by a very rough estimate about 3% of the population, so gaining awareness may help, but after you tackle the spectrum, what should the next step of NT education about neurological differences begin, or for the most part, end?

 

[the_tortoise]

Which of these two points of view do you lean towards?

Neither. It's not a black and white issue, it's very complex.

Each person, in my view, has a responsibility for themselves and a responsibility to others and it is an ongoing struggle to balance everyone's needs and wants in a way that is equitable.

How much tolerance or how much of a leg up should we expect from neurotypicals?

What I expect from anyone varies from person to person and situation to situation....I have ideas about how things should be, but since my ideas don't control the thoughts and actions of others they are not what determines my expectations. (And again, these ideas I have about how things should be, they are not black and white; they change depending on the individuals and circumstances involved.)

Is there an "us versus them" mentality?

You can't generalize that kind of mentality to entire neurotypes. Some individuals do seem to have that mentality, others don't.

 

[pamelaperejil]

Do you really want to be labeled as inferior to many in their eyes because they don't understand why you should get "special" treatment?

I agree with you, actually.

This was what my fallout with another Aspie was about.

He was asked to do something illegal at work and cover it up. He refused, and was fired. They framed the termination in such a way as to prevent him from receiving benefits, I guess. (I don't know the specifics. He didn't have a diagnosis at the time and they claimed he had a PD instead of Asperger's, which I gather caused him administrative problems.)

He's outraged and says it's a case of discrimination against Aspies. I said, anyone who challenged their boss under similar circumstances would have been fired.

He say's it's ruined his whole life and he's just waiting to die. (This happened 8 years ago and, because of the bad reference, he can't find a new job. I don't know the specifics). I say, this is not a situation that's unique to aspies. It's not this simple one-to-one relationship between having Asperger's and being fired in this case.

I think the fact that he had asperger's played a part in his termination, but it's disempowering view this from the standpoint of a helpless victim.

But I'm conflicted about it, because I've also faced serious problems at work simply for being odd and not fitting in, and no other reason than that. I had basically chalked this up to "life's not fair" and "people are sometimes jerks", but it does beg the question, what is reasonable accomodation.

Anyway, thank you for your candor. It makes me feel better about the stance I took with this guy, although I know there are multiple ways to look at the situation.

 

[NothingToSeeHere]

Well I don't think it's as simple as one of the other. I strongly support 'reasonable adjustments' in the workplace and support in schools etc. but I have very little time for the sort of victim mentality and entitlement that some people display.

It is not NTs fault if they react badly to poor social skills, they cannot read minds and cannot automatically know that you are on the spectrum and not just rude or a creeper. If you are not qualified for a job you are not qualified, regardless of whether your lack of qualification is due to autism.

An example of a reasonable adjustment: Having an office in a quiet area without LED lights.
An example of NOT a matter of reasonable adjustment: Getting a job which requires a lot of social interaction and good communication skills and then expecting your boss to tolerate the fact that you are completely rubbish at it because of autism related poor communication skills.

 

[Iamnotarabot]

Both are rights, but for me it doesnt mean anything, the first point would mean that I just have nothing to do in life and the second point just make me feel even worse when I realize that a lot of aspies just lived their life succesfully while im stuck.

 

[SunnyDay16]

Well I don't think it's as simple as one of the other. I strongly support 'reasonable adjustments' in the workplace and support in schools etc. but I have very little time for the sort of victim mentality and entitlement that some people display.

It is not NTs fault if they react badly to poor social skills, they cannot read minds and cannot automatically know that you are on the spectrum and not just rude or a creeper. If you are not qualified for a job you are not qualified, regardless of whether your lack of qualification is due to autism.

An example of a reasonable adjustment: Having an office in a quiet area without LED lights.
An example of NOT a matter of reasonable adjustment: Getting a job which requires a lot of social interaction and good communication skills and then expecting your boss to tolerate the fact that you are completely rubbish at it because of autism related poor communication skills.

I do agree with what you're saying mostly. I think that many areas of life, not just employment, require you to get along with and blend well with people to some degree. It's how the human race has survived for so long. It is important to learn the social rules so that you can get by in those areas, since if you aren't able to people aren't going to care if it's due to the Asperger's or not. They're just going to see that you're not good with people.

I think reasonable accommodations depend hugely on the person. Autism is such a broad spectrum, so an accommodation may be more "reasonable" for some people than others. It depends if the accommodation is actually going to benefit the receiver in some way or if it's just used as a crutch so that the receiver doesn't have to work on anything for themselves.

 

[tducey]

To me we have our challenges and NT's should allow for that but we should also not let our Autism be an excuse for our actions all the time. We have to take responsibility as well.

 

[onlything]

I'm more towards 3): live and let live.

However, although rat race doesn't carry much interest to me, we still have to learn how to function in a society where it's an important part of life and hierarchy. People are not interested in your cases or how depressed/different/fragile you are. There are rules that you need to obey and if you don't want to obey them, you need to become strong enough to opt out - or to create yours. Otherwise, you'll be seen as a weak link and stomped on/used.

 

[clg114]

It does not make any difference if you are NT or ND, it really is a dog eat dog world. There is nothing fair about it and nice guys really do finish last. I think that it would be great if those who need help, got it. The reality is, if you do not make your own way, nobody will do it for you. All you can do is take care of yourself and your family. If you can help others along the way, that is a bonus.

 

[Nitro]

The other way I see this is that he didn't participate in an illegal activity for them, so he won.

Seriously, would you really want to continue working in that kind of atmosphere with a fresh target on your back?

 

[Judge]

How much tolerance or how much of a leg up should we expect from neurotypicals? Is there an "us versus them" mentality? Is this a civil rights issue? Is it an Aspies-need-to-learn-to-live-in-the-real-world issue?

I simply try to explain our predicament along such lines in a rather simplistic manner. One I've posted many times in this forum.

That we must contend with three groups of people relative to how they relate (or not) to us:

1) Those few who want to understand and will succeed.
2) Those few who want to understand and will fail.
3) The vast majority who have no interest understanding us because in most cases we don't impact their lives so there's no incentive to do otherwise. Those who may insist or even demand on the minority adjusting to the majority for no other reason.

The CDC considers the possibility of autism occurring in every one of sixty-eight people. That presently amounts to less than two percent of the population. Whether accurate or not is another matter. But the point is that we constitute a very small segment of society. A number for many makes our plight completely insignificant on the math alone. Then consider the plights of other social minorities in society. Their struggle to be recognized and accepted on even the most nominal levels. And how long it has taken in history to get to even this point, for better or worse.

In essence, our struggle as a social minority is daunting in comparison. So much so that yes, it may be an unrealistic expectation to seek civil rights on a level other minorities have sought over time and struggle. Then factor in how social majorities remain competitive and predatory towards their own kind. An environment where I'd prefer to limit pondering the social majority to items 1,2 or 3 and little else.

It isn't the price we pay for being autistic so much as it's the price we all pay for merely being members of the human race. The most deadly of predators.