Singing And Songwriting (2)

[total-recoil]

Thought I'd share I'm still writing songs and have renewed attempts to include a bit of singing since I'm persuaded that vocals are too important a factor to ignore. Yes, I like progressive jazz where the singing isn't included in most cases but most of the bands that influence me use solid vocals, i.e. Rolling Stones, Beach Boys, Beatles and so on.
Last night,. I think I made a discovery. So far, my attempts at singing haven't been anything to brag about. The best I can say is I sound very average and there have been moments when I thought it was a lost cause altogether. During those moments, I thought maybe it would be best to advertise for a singer. Then I would think that if I work really really hard, the singing is going to get better just as when you exercise, your muscles get stronger.
Anyway, last night I was messing about on keyboard and casually tried to sing a slow song in a minor key that had been a chart hit a few years ago. I gave it a bit of practice then recorded my efforts and played it back. To my astonishement, it sounded way way better than all my other attempts. I was pleasantly surprised but now I think I figured out why. My suspicion is some of us have voices that suit certain songs and certain keys and I got lucky to come across a song that seems to just fit my voice pattern and intonation. The original singer seems to have a voice similar to mind so I thought I sounded a bit similar.
One problem I face, of course, is I have to rely on my own evaluation of stuff I play back and that's tough when it's your own voice. Many people also feel uncomfortable hearing themselves sing and naturally tend to feel that they are rubbish (I have felt this way many times). I'm now hoping to find someone who will be totally honest and give me a sincere opinion of my singing on that particular track but my own take on it is I think it's not too bad this time around. I am quite willing to accept the possibility I'm just not cut out to do vocals but am hoping I will be able to sing some songs if they're limited to middle key range and also suit my voice.
To round this off I have no actual fantasy about being a great vocalist as I know there are singers who can blow me away but, as I said, many musicians feel they ought to be able to at least hold their own if required to sing. I also was given a list of musicians who are considered not brilliant singers but still sing and nobody really gives them a hard time over it.
Musicians who I think are really great singers are, Bowie, Mick Jagger, Lennon and McCartney, The Beach Boys, Michael Jackson and so on.
Anyway, my question is this:
How good a singer are you?
Are you limited in your key range?
Do you feel you are able to sing well as a result of hard practice or are you a natural?
Do you feel you really ought to make the effort to sing if you play an instrument?
Do you hate hearing yourself sing when played back?

 

[total-recoil]

Whenever I view forums wjhere we discuss our struggles to sing half decent, I always hear Kris Kristofferson mentioned as a famous musician who was given a hard time over his actual singing ability:
"Johnny Cash once recalled that in the mid-1960s, wife June Carter played him a recording by a singer he'd never heard before. "That man's a poet," he told her. "Pity he can't sing." That remark would be far from the last joke made about Kris Kristofferson's vocal ability, many of them generated by his closest friends. "Let's put it this way," Willie Nelson said a few years back. "It was a damn good thing he could write."
Write he could, of course — deathless songs like "Sunday Mornin' Comin' Down," "Me and Bobby McGee" and "Help Me Make It Through the Night" issued from his pen. (Figuratively: He told me in an interview several months ago that he never writes his songs down. "If it's a good enough song I'm going to remember," he said.) But his singing voice, with its limited range and unpredictable phrasing, was a tougher sell. For all his classic compositions, his only solo radio hits have been 1971's "Loving Her Was Easier" and 1973's "Why Me."
But now it seems clear that Kristofferson's voice wasn't bad, he was just too young to use it. Age has deepened its tone, chiseled cracks and crevices into it, thickened and weathered it. It is the voice of a man who, at 73, is finally suited to use it properly. It's a voice of authority, a voice of reason, a voice of humanity. Note the way producer Don Was recorded that voice on Kristofferson's two most recent albums, 2006's This Old Road and last year's Closer to the Bone: He keeps it always in perfect focus and unadorned by excess instrumentation, glorying in its every imperfect detail."

 

[Joel I]

I don't like my vocals I hear back but I do sing a bit. I don't have a huge music theory so I don't worry about my signing I worry more about my ability to play instruments.

 

[total-recoil]

I don't like my vocals I hear back but I do sing a bit. I don't have a huge music theory so I don't worry about my signing I worry more about my ability to play instruments.

I've just finished a cover of Hey Jude. The best part of it so far seems to be the ending which I tried to do in a different way by making it a bit softer than the original Beatles version. I also added a rhythmic drumbeat. The main part of the song so far is just me singing to piano and not yet filled out with backing, drums, bass or anything. I was having problems with the singing of the main part of the song as didn't think I sounded very good and even one or two times going a bit out of tune. Also struggling to hit the slightly higher notes. I started the song in a basic C which puts you on a fairly low scale but then I was sort of changing the chords a bit from straight G to a minor and getting a deeper sound which I liked.
After many many attempts and times I was thinking this may not be a possible song to cover, I did get a recording that played back seemingly O.K. So, next I started on the "And any time you feel the pain, hey Jude, refrain bit and last night changed the chords in weird ways with transitions and so on.
I have had feedback from my singing and amazingly got some positive feedback. That's a relief as my singing was always pretty hopeless but many experts claim we can all learn to sing if we exercise and develop our vocal chords through practice.I'll never be a great singer but the hope is to sound reasonable enough to be taken seriously as a singer/songwriter.
I'm also working on a song of my own which is pretty simple lyrics, lots of piano and about your wife or girlfriend leaving you with a "why did you go" theme (typical song scenario)..

 

[Joel I]

I've just finished a cover of Hey Jude. The best part of it so far seems to be the ending which I tried to do in a different way by making it a bit softer than the original Beatles version. I also added a rhythmic drumbeat. The main part of the song so far is just me singing to piano and not yet filled out with backing, drums, bass or anything. I was having problems with the singing of the main part of the song as didn't think I sounded very good and even one or two times going a bit out of tune. Also struggling to hit the slightly higher notes. I started the song in a basic C which puts you on a fairly low scale but then I was sort of changing the chords a bit from straight G to a minor and getting a deeper sound which I liked.
After many many attempts and times I was thinking this may not be a possible song to cover, I did get a recording that played back seemingly O.K. So, next I started on the "And any time you feel the pain, hey Jude, refrain bit and last night changed the chords in weird ways with transitions and so on.
I have had feedback from my singing and amazingly got some positive feedback. That's a relief as my singing was always pretty hopeless but many experts claim we can all learn to sing if we exercise and develop our vocal chords through practice.I'll never be a great singer but the hope is to sound reasonable enough to be taken seriously as a singer/songwriter.
I'm also working on a song of my own which is pretty simple lyrics, lots of piano and about your wife or girlfriend leaving you with a "why did you go" theme (typical song scenario)..

I've written a song about wishing a love one came back simply entitled Love Please Return I just created a video for it. Do you have any music on the internet?

 

[total-recoil]

At this time I can't hear any music online but can see the video. This is something I need to ge to grips with as I haven't any real means of recording yet. I think I need a C.D. burner and voice amplification.
Funnily enough, I read an interview where Gilbert O Sullivan said that when he song writes, he always places an old fashioned ghetto blaster on top of his piano to record a day's work. I thought that's a better idea than using my mobile phone to remember stuff I did.
Nice video and if I can get sound I'll listen to the song as well.

I've written a song about wishing a love one came back simply entitled Love Please Return I just created a video for it. Do you have any music on the internet?

 

[Joel I]

Thanks the video is just some photos I took years ago

 

[Snowy Owl]

I write and record songs in a homemade studio. Years ago I used to busk and jam with other folks but these days I don't go out much. I taught myself audio software so that I could still make music. I heard Mike Myers say recently something about how he immerses himself in creativity because it helps him deal with his low self esteem and other issues. I realized that I love music because when I'm in the zone, I can forget about being a misfit.Self help therapy I guess. Anyway here's the link to my youtube videos if anyone cares to check them out.

[link removed as requested - edited by mod]

 

[total-recoil]

I write and record songs in a homemade studio. Years ago I used to busk and jam with other folks but these days I don't go out much. I taught myself audio software so that I could still make music. I heard Mike Myers say recently something about how he immerses himself in creativity because it helps him deal with his low self esteem and other issues. I realized that I love music because when I'm in the zone, I can forget about being a misfit.Self help therapy I guess. Anyway here's the link to my youtube videos if anyone cares to check them out.

Sorry I am late responding. I did check out your music and was very impressed. I thought your Hollow Mountain was really cool but didn't get chance to hear all of the songs.
I spend a fair bit of time researching music and get curious about what makes an artist famous. I gather much depends on finding your fans wherever they may be and getting out to do live performances. For example, John Denver did three albums before he became a mega star and only then did the fans discover his early songs and they became classics.
Anyway, take it from me, you are good and your music is well worth promoting. I seem to recall when The Beatles split up, Paul Mccartney went out on the road with his band in a van and his son is now also doing the same thing. So, good luck to you and thanks for sharing.
P.S. Haven't had time to check out Joel's yet but will try.

 

[total-recoil]

I have gone from a very up stage in my music to a crashing down. In fact, last night I was kind of depressed and filled with doubt. I feel a pressure to keep pushing and pushing and suddenly I get tired out.
I think the only issue that bugs me is my singing. I have major doubts about how I sound. I did a cover of a Gilbert O Sullivan track which I sang and got very good feedback. So, on a quite an "up" I recorded a version of Hey Jude and someone slammed me for my singing. I started it in "C" and avoid high range tracks which is why I picked Hey Jude (although a friend disagrees and tells me trying to do McCartney is too demanding).
Anyway I am licking my wounds, very hung up on whether I really do sound like a cat in the throes of death.
I am led to believe, most people actually hate hearing their own voices played back and even worse when they are singing. When I play myself back I find it kind of hard to figure out how it must sound to other people. Sometimes I figure I sound good and other times I think I should quit and just stick to my keyboard, mixing and instrumental. However, I feel being able to sing at a basic level is pretty important for any songwriter so am really hoping I can pull it off.
You know, the funny thing is I can't get over Bob Dylan. In many ways, he sounds awful and yet people loved him and it never bothered him about his nasal singing so he would sing with utter confidence. David Bowie described his voice as like sand and glue. Jimmy Hendrix said, "Hey, if he can sing, I can sing!"
I don't mind at all being told truthfully if my singing ain't too hot so long as I'm told why and what needs to be changed.
Any tips welcome, of course.

 

[Joel I]

I had a huge problem with this too. Everyone including me don't like my signing & everyone excluding me hate my music. It took a long while but I now make music for my enjoyment. I enjoy making a lot of instrumentals it helps not to hear my voice all the time.

 

[total-recoil]

I had a huge problem with this too. Everyone including me don't like my signing & everyone excluding me hate my music. It took a long while but I now make music for my enjoyment. I enjoy making a lot of instrumentals it helps not to hear my voice all the time.

Well, I was a Pat Metheny Group fan. For me, it was a great band but I couldn't help but notice the only actual "hit" Pat got was when David Bowie did a vocal lead for the group. I came to suspect that people relate more somehow to personal projection in music through a voice. Basically I want to be not just an instrumentalist but also be able to sing my own material (or at least on some tracks). The problem is I have always been an awful singer. I recall at school I hated singing. We would all have to sing these hyms in the morning and I used to lip sync. I've always followed music but avoided singing.
Recently I was hearing that everybody in reality can sing. I can't say for sure if this is true, maybe it is. So far I have learned we all need to find our range and I know enough now to have worked out I'm baritone. I'm told if you exercise and train your voice, you should be able to sound better in time.
Perhaps where I'm now a bit lost is I'm having trouble finding myself. Some singers find a way to be unorthodox in order to sound good. Like Mick Jagger can sing fine but he sings very relaxed in his own way and seems to handle rock better. In fact, online you will find lists of singers who are considered not very good vocalists - the most notorious being Bob Dylan.
Anyway, it got me very down for a day or so. I think one major problem I have now is am not relaxed with my voice at all. I'm highly sensitive to any negative feedback. That is, someone who wanted to get to me could just call me a lousy singer and I'd be off somewhere licking my wounds. However, somehow I figure I can find angle to get around it. One thought I had, for example, is turn a defect into a positive. Maybe ditch the sweet, harmonic melodies and use a whole new style (a bit like Dylan did).
The other week I was doing something very radical. I wrote a psychedellic rock song I called The Return Of Doctor Robert. The lyrics are far out and run as follows:
If you're ever feeling low, there's a man in town I know, he's called Dr Robert.
You can call him day or night, if you're feeling not quite right, just tell Doctor Robert.
(verse 2 not yet done)
Chorus:
Little red pills will pick you up, swill them down in a paper cup, says Dr Robert.
The backing is a strong synchronised double riff with 3 percusion layers, simple but fast bass and some weird AF on the chords. It sounds radical, except I decided I had little confidence in my singing. However, I have yet to try using an actual microphone which may allow me benefit from amplification as I practise.
As for the lyrics, I guess I'm heavily influenced by Brian Wilson and John Lennon and this song is actually based on Lennon's Dr Robert but did my own lyrics. The kicker is seeing as I'm an aspie, I figured I would make Dr. R a psychiatrist.
Sorry for long post.

 

[Paige]

I enjoy singing on karaoke but that's about it.

 

[AstrumSystema]

I am terrible at singing, my voice is just not good. But I do it anyway because it helps me feel good. I listen to a lot of Blackmore's Night, MCR, Paramore, and a little Billy Joel. Also, the RWBY Season 1 soundtrack is beautiful, especially Red Like Roses:

 

[Snowy Owl]

Sorry I am late responding. I did check out your music and was very impressed. I thought your Hollow Mountain was really cool but didn't get chance to hear all of the songs.
I spend a fair bit of time researching music and get curious about what makes an artist famous. I gather much depends on finding your fans wherever they may be and getting out to do live performances. For example, John Denver did three albums before he became a mega star and only then did the fans discover his early songs and they became classics.
Anyway, take it from me, you are good and your music is well worth promoting. I seem to recall when The Beatles split up, Paul Mccartney went out on the road with his band in a van and his son is now also doing the same thing. So, good luck to you and thanks for sharing.
P.S. Haven't had time to check out Joel's yet but will try.

Thanks so much, that's made my day....my partner is a NT and he doesn't even listen to my music so it means a lot to me to get some feedback. Bless your cotton socks!

 

[Wintertime]

How good a singer are you? I don't know, honestly. I love singing and probably sang before I talked. A lot of people have told me that I am talented, the problem with that is, I can't tell if they're just being nice. One producer offered to pay for recording studio time if I'd sing on his record, so I guess I must be alright at least. I like how I sound when it's in my own ear, but that is a lot different than what other people hear. Sort of clueless to be honest, and I depended a lot on other people's feedback. Without them, I would never have pursued it and probably would have never recorded myself singing original tunes that I wrote myself.
Are you limited in your key range? I am not sure what my current range is, but I am definitely not a first soprano anymore. I'm probably an alto as I can go quite low, but I haven't measured it in a very long time. If I am optimistic, maybe I'm a mezzo. My range is similar to Beth Gibbons from Portishead but I can't reach a few of her highest notes. Same with Bjork.
Do you feel you are able to sing well as a result of hard practice or are you a natural? I was a natural and sang from birth, and learned harmony myself from listening to groups like CSNY and Neil Young as a 4-5 year old, I had a natural affinity for understanding music and how to make those sounds and hit those notes, perfect pitch as well. I had some practice with choirs when I was a teen/YA but I was never professionally trained. I sang a LOT though just for the sheer joy of it so that's practice, in a sense.
Do you feel you really ought to make the effort to sing if you play an instrument? I can't sing at the same time as playing an instrument, because while I do make decent noises out of a few, it is self-taught and I don't have mastery at any instrument, which I think I'd have to have. I probably wouldn't be able to do both at the same time anyway, because my physical coordination is terrible and I really have to concentrate when I play. Maybe I could play piano and sing alone, but doubt it. Haven't had access to a piano in ages. Sad.
Do you hate hearing yourself sing when played back? I used to, it was terrifying. I've gotten used to it though and can even appreciate some of it sometimes. I have a very critical ear and I can hear a single dropped note or any tiny little thing that sounds bad. So that makes me flinch. I used to turn beet red and have a meltdown though, so I've made a lot of progress. Was terrified by the sound of my own voice when played back. It sounded so different from what I heard in my ear.

 

[total-recoil]

Thanks so much, that's made my day....my partner is a NT and he doesn't even listen to my music so it means a lot to me to get some feedback. Bless your cotton socks!

I think if you haven't heard any John Denver it might be interesting for you to listen to his material. He started out doing a bit of country and went on to write some fantastic easy listening songs. Another songwriter I find I learned from is the Irish Gilbert O Sullivan and I already did a cover of one of his songs.

 

[total-recoil]

I have been absent for a while but have been churning out music at an a

I had a huge problem with this too. Everyone including me don't like my signing & everyone excluding me hate my music. It took a long while but I now make music for my enjoyment. I enjoy making a lot of instrumentals it helps not to hear my voice all the time.

Thanks so much, that's made my day....my partner is a NT and he doesn't even listen to my music so it means a lot to me to get some feedback. Bless your cotton socks!

I have been absent for a while but churning out songs and tracks at an alarming rate. I seem to be able to just come up with riffs and hooks soon as I switch my keyboard on so must be in the right frame of mind at present. You know, I came across a good bit of advice from John Lennon that he claims he shared with Paul McCartney many years ago. Basically they never normally jotted down their riffs or song ideas but would forget it and return to work the following day. If the song was good enough, basically they would remember it but if they couldn't remember the day after they just assumed it wasn't that good to stay in the mind. I use this myself now when I write. I tend to work on the material that stays in my head without ever jotting it down.
I just wrote a song with very simple lyrics I discarded some time ago as I thought it sounded a bit too like the song Downtown. I've also practised and practised my singing and have lately found people have been a lot blunter. My mother told me she thought I was rubbish but then again she also slated Mick Jagger and John Denver so I put it down to being a bit over critical. I just keep plodding.
Today and yesterday I was working on this fast moving seventies funk track I made up. Started with a catchy piano riff I overdubbed and liked the sound. I tend to write my songs in a chaotic way so may just do a chorus and have to wait some time till I find an A part that will fit the chorus.

 

[total-recoil]

I discovered a group that was formed around 1966 I really like. For some reason, they caught on in certain parts of England but not on a national level and not in the USA. I don't know why that is because vocally they seem to be better than, say, The Stones.
My favourite track of theirs is called Cooks Of Cakes And KIndness which is really far out. Here is the track, dated 1969.

I don't like my vocals I hear back but I do sing a bit. I don't have a huge music theory so I don't worry about my signing I worry more about my ability to play instruments.

 

[Snowy Owl]

I think if you haven't heard any John Denver it might be interesting for you to listen to his material. He started out doing a bit of country and went on to write some fantastic easy listening songs. Another songwriter I find I learned from is the Irish Gilbert O Sullivan and I already did a cover of one of his songs.

I used sing Annie's song as part of a busking set years ago. I very much am influenced by Neil Young and after going mad playing with all the things you can do with midi files...I've realized that one has to form ones' own style. I've stopped trying to do everything from disco to New Age and just focus on a folk rock kinda sound. Its hard without any other musicians. I can play acoustic guitar and I'm fairly experienced percussionist. Started playing keys a couple of years ago but as I'm obsessive, I won't be satisfied until I understand every aspect of music including how to play bass and just about every other instrument. Heres my latest if you care to listen