Should Historical Films be Accurately Portrayed?

[Cyber]

A precedent of defamation and personal injury established by a federal court in California won't have any impact in an Egyptian court. Their civil courts rely only on their own legal codes and statutes- not international legal precedents. Decided exclusively by a judge- not any jury. Though it wouldn't surprise me if the case gets swept under a rug in Egypt and stays there.

I followed that case before it fell off the news. the lawyer probably knew what they were doing. Filing in Egypt was meant for a domestic audience who are highly nationalistic and a public sensitive to how the west portrays Egypt's legacy. His objectives were simple a) persuade the Egyptian government to ban Netflix as punishment and b) self-promotion for his legal business in Egypt.

But despite this, elements of his argument were cogent. Jada Pinkett Smith promoted the series as a "historical documentary" despite multiple historical inaccuracies. Previous offerings casting Gal Gadot and Elizabeth Taylor as Cleopatra were clearly pitched as dramatic works of fiction based on a true story. But Pinkett Smith insisted her version was historically accurate.

However, the Egyptian's "outrage" smacks of ignorance as well. Cleopatra was not an Egyptian either, she was a foreign Greek speaking Macedonian of the Ptolemaic dynasty.

 

[Cyber]

It's been many years since pondering the religiously controversial 1988 film,"The Last Temptation of Christ". A film that told an alternate version of Christ as a mortal who took a wife and had children, and was never crucified, having given into being tempted by Satan. Which roiled Christian organizations and governments in some nations, and while litigated against the plaintiffs lost their cases not only in the US, but also Chile.

Key word there is "alternative", that should have been enough to cover Scorcese's artwork. But had he done the same (hypothetically) with the prophet Mohammed I'm not sure he would have been long for this world.

 

[Crossbreed]

...
If anything I'm inclined to think it just boils down to a particular nation, and whatever legal recourse if any their civil courts may have against such a plaintiff. Where most any Hollywood institution is more apt to tread lightly with audiences and governments within the European Union in particular. A judiciary that doesn't hesitate to force hefty punitive fines based on alleged commercial wrongdoings.

On a related note (IIRC), Germany won't screen movies featuring John Travolta nor Tom Cruise because of their involvement with Scientology.

 

[Judge]

Key word there is "alternative", that should have been enough to cover Scorcese's artwork. But had he done the same (hypothetically) with the prophet Mohammed I'm not sure he would have been long for this world.

Also reminded me of the 1976 film by Moustpha Akkad, "Mohammed, Messenger of God".

When religious critics savaged the film, despite an effort to respectfully comply with certain issues such as never physically depicting the prophet himself. Praised by some, despised by others.

Just another sign that film makers will do as they please, much like sports teams. With fans and foes alike, and wins and losses. No matter how controversial their works may amount to with the public.

 

[Judge]

On a related note (IIRC), Germany won't screen movies featuring John Travolta nor Tom Cruise because of their involvement with Scientology.

Banning the showing of films is ultimately the only tool governments and/or special interests have in dictating popular sentiment for or against film makers.

Though given the present technology and access to streaming media, the days of effective technological censorship seem to be diminished, with a few prominent exceptions such as China, North Korea, Iran and Russia. Forever attempting to keep foreign influences from contaminating their culture and body politic while technological advances continue to circumvent such efforts.

A process akin to hackers almost always being ahead of the curve, while governments and religious zealots remain well behind it.

 

[Cyber]

Also reminded me of the 1976 film by Moustpha Akkad, "Mohammed, Messenger of God".

When religious critics savaged the film, despite an effort to respectfully comply with certain issues such as never physically depicting the prophet himself. Praised by some, despised by others.

Just another sign that film makers will do as they please, much like sports teams. With fans and foes alike, and wins and losses. No matter how controversial their works may amount to with the public.

Doing over religious works (or ironically literary classics) into an artistic movie is fraught with risks due to scrutiny from religious followers or literary fans. Fans can have something like a religious devotion to the canonical version of the story as they cherish from literary form. Canonical version of a story can also be sourced from comics and "OG" movies in the case of Marvel or Star wars.

Disney have taken the OG Star wars from George Lucas (revolving around the Jedi and being faithful to Jedi and Sith religious philosophy) creating parallel dramas having nothing to do with Jedi (Mandalorian or Andor) or worse distorting Jedi canon to accommodate a poorly written new side stories (Sequels and Acolyte).

 

[Cyber]

On a related note (IIRC), Germany won't screen movies featuring John Travolta nor Tom Cruise because of their involvement with Scientology.

I am always curious on how the German government responds to world war I and II related cinema?

 

[Crossbreed]

I am always curious on how the German government responds to world war I and II related cinema?

German Reacts to Hogan’s Heroes! | Feli from Germany​

 

[Mary Terry]

German Reacts to Hogan’s Heroes! | Feli from Germany​

My German grandmother, who survived WWII with her two small German children in Frankfurt, Germany, had PTSD from Allied bombings in her city and lifelong nightmares about starvation and running to bomb shelters. She married my grandfather after the war and immigrated to the US with her two German kids. She hated Hogan's Heroes because she said it depicted Germans as stupid. She would ride her bicycle miles into the countryside during the war to do sewing and fine needlework (she was upper class) for uneducated farmers in exchange for a couple of eggs to feed her children.

Germany was in such dire straits by then and the weekly meat ration was 1/4 pound of meat for adults. That's the same as a McDonald's burger patty once a week. She and her parents gave their meat rations to her two children. The children were malnourished by the time the war ended. She saw the trains carrying Jews to what the German people were told were "relocation camps" where they would grow food and have homes to live in. She said that ordinary people like her did not know about the concentration camps and the slaughtering of Jews. Those government extermination programs were concealed from the general population.

 

[JayLapointe]

I think it depends upon the nature of the film. If they are trying to do a movie about an actual person or event in history then I'd like it do be as historically accurate as possible. Now if it is just a period piece then I think there is no issue with artistic license as it's clear that it's just pure fiction.

Ultimately though there is going to be some amount of creative license taken anytime a movie is done about anything. Without having had documentary cameras sent back in time, everything to some extent is a best guess as there are a lot of blanks to fill in, in any given historical record. And what does survive and gets passed down in record is just the view of the winner, so there is that bias too to contend with.

I guess what bothers me is when a film is more creative license than fact but doesn't acknowledge itself as such.

 

[Judge]

Prison camp films are often another issue regarding how the media chose to portray prisoners of war. Perhaps the one that most often comes to mind is "Bridge On The River Kwai" (1957). In which former British prisoners of war of the Japanese bitterly commented on the film and novel being so inaccurate relative to how badly they were treated on a perpetual basis.

Ironically in 1957 it wouldn't have been possible to make such a film as such acts would have been routinely censored anyways. That depicting such brutality was not suitable for the public.

As for "Hogan's Heroes", not all the criticism came from the Germans. Some also came from American and British prisoners of war who had similar things to say about their German captors. But then how the Germans were portrayed in that comedy series didn't surprise me, given most of the major cast members depicting Germans were all Jewish. With one actor playing a Frenchman (Robert Clary) who as a Jew was actually deported to Auschwitz aged, sixteen.

In the film "The Great Escape" the decision was made not to honor the actual heroes of that exploit by their actual name, along with including three Americans who weren't there. Oddly enough, one member of the cast (actor Donald Pleasance) was a former POW of the Germans having been shot down in a bomber mission as an RAF officer.

Given the Second World War has always been a big interest of mine, I've personally always wanted to see a film documenting the Byron Hot Springs Interrogation Center, a secret facility where select Japanese and German officers were interrogated in Northern California. Though how they were treated remains somewhat of a mystery given unverified claims of "aggressive techniques" applied.

I've met two Americans in my life who were POWs in WW2. One was a teen friend of my mother's who survived bailing out of a B-17 over Germany, while the other was my sister-in-law's uncle, who was a civilian construction worker who was taken prisoner on Wake Island and shipped to Japan for the duration. What they had to say was considerably worse than most Hollywood films or television programs depicted.

There have also been a handful of films about POWs during the Vietnam War, with varying considerations of authenticity on number of levels. In college I also met a former POW of the Vietnam War who was a friendly, but low-key fellow. He had some interesting things to say in class, though at the time I had no idea of his prominence historically speaking. He once helped me in being a reference for a job interview. He's still alive today...

 

[Cyber]

I've met two Americans in my life who were POWs in WW2. One was a teen friend of my mother's who survived bailing out of a B-17 over Germany, while the other was my sister-in-law's uncle, who was a civilian construction worker who was taken prisoner on Wake Island and shipped to Japan for the duration. What they had to say was considerably worse than most Hollywood films or television programs depicted.

Yes television can never (and will never) depict close quarter combat or how the vanquished were treated. Some things are not meant for mainstream entertainment.

 

[Cyber]

She said that ordinary people like her did not know about the concentration camps and the slaughtering of Jews. Those government extermination programs were concealed from the general population.

I've known several Germans who were children during the war. I think that's a valid argument for kids. But what about German adults? There's a very interesting book by Harvard Professor William Goldhagen called "Hitler's Willing Executioners". His central thesis is German adults has been brainwashed with antisemitism for centuries and Nazism was merely drawing on existing anti-Jewish sentiment, He said the mass extermination was such a huge enterprise it needed participation in some form (even administration) from most German adults (for example every German soldier was instructed very specifically to deal with Jews, gypsies, Slavs). Compliance and obedience led to denial and PTSD after the war.

But adult Germans from 1940s in their 20s and 30s had died off by the 1990s. the generation after the war it was just stuff written in books or in Hollywood like Hogan's Heroes.

 

[Mary Terry]

I've known several Germans who were children during the war. I think that's a valid argument for kids. But what about German adults? There's a very interesting book by Harvard Professor William Goldhagen called "Hitler's Willing Executioners". His central thesis is German adults has been brainwashed with antisemitism for centuries and Nazism was merely drawing on existing anti-Jewish sentiment, He said the mass extermination was such a huge enterprise it needed participation in some form (even administration) from most German adults (for example every German soldier was instructed very specifically to deal with Jews, gypsies, Slavs). Compliance and obedience led to denial and PTSD after the war.

But adult Germans from 1940s in their 20s and 30s had died off by the 1990s. the generation after the war it was just stuff written in books or in Hollywood like Hogan's Heroes.

I don't believe the general populace of Germany, particularly young housewives like my grandmother, knew what was going on. Even the Jews didn't understand what was happening until it was too late.

There will always be some people who blame the Russian people for Stalin and Putin, blame Italians for Mussolini, blame Ugandans for Idi Amin, etc.

 

[Judge]

I don't believe the general populace of Germany, particularly young housewives like my grandmother, knew what was going on. Even the Jews didn't understand what was happening until it was too late.

I tend to see such considerations being complicated, based largely on two major factors:

* Geographical and physical proximity to mass murder.
* The likelihood of military versus civilian exposure to such atrocities.

Most civilians physically and geographically removed from concentrations camps in urban areas of Germany probably didn't know, short of being directly involved as party administrators. However OTOH those living nearby weren't stupid, either. Knowing not to ask questions yet being able to see, hear and smell something most unnatural. Do as you're told and do not ask questions. A major tenet of life in a totalitarian system, apart from a culture that inherently respected authority. With many citizens instantly in denial if questioned, just out of an understandable sense for self-preservation.

Conversely for so many Germans serving on the Eastern Front, I suspect it would have been difficult for them not to see so many actions taken against civilians in terms of race and having partaken in partisan actions or political administrators resulting in summary executions. Not to mention that the Einsatzgruppen who conducted so many such murders in occupied territories consisted from both the ranks of the regular army, as well as the SS. In other words, far too many witnesses for such events to deny that they happened.

Hearing from former veterans of the US Army who actually liberated such camps on the Western Front and that portion of Germany they occupied towards the end of the war seemed pretty certain that the locals nearby knew exactly what was happening. Being quite skeptical of German civilians so apt to proclaim, "Ich bin kein Nazi!" (I am not a Nazi). Though it could also be surmised that a soldier's impression of the Germans would be prejudiced, fueled by victory.

There was also a common element of incredulity amongst Jews and gentiles alike. The rational notion that mass murder on such a scale was morally and ethically inconceivable. Even as Nazi oppression incrementally increased in the 30s, many Jews always thought that there would be point in time when such acts would diminish or even cease altogether to further national policy among the civilized world. -Which never happened.

As far as blame for entire populations regarding such regimes, the dynamics of totalitarianism seldom change. That in the beginning of such struggles the masses certainly played their part in them, but not all of them. Conversely once most any totalitarian regime is firmly in power, that the slightest degree of political dissent becomes nearly impossible without the threat of imprisonment or death. When day-to-day existence for most citizens is like "being in a vacuum" being subject to a barrage of forced obedience and propaganda.

With opposing views of thought on such issues, there's no telling what Hollywood would or will do when it comes to the truth of such events outside the realm of a pure documentary, if there even is such a thing among creators of mass media these days. That their primary goal remains entertainment rather than enlightenment, all to accrue box office receipts and perpetuate shareholder equity.

Leaving real creativity and historical accuracy primarily to only a few independent filmmakers who may have less financial obligations to themselves and private investors. Though they too may also be at times more interested in the art of film than those same considerations of historical accuracy. Yet another reason to sense that historical accuracy in the media will remain within hopes and dreams at best.

 

[Jonn]

My German grandmother, who survived WWII with her two small German children in Frankfurt, Germany, had PTSD from Allied bombings in her city and lifelong nightmares about starvation and running to bomb shelters.

My Grandmother died in a allied bombing raid in Berlin.
My mother was sexually abused by a russian commander when the russians took Berlin, essentially a sex-slave. That was a "normal" thing in the russian military then and today, "The Spoils of War", hence my glee when pootin falls on his face in Ukraine.
Around 250,000 German women/children died as a direct result of sexual abuse/injuries, poorly performed abortions, and suicides, I believe

She married my grandfather after the war and immigrated to the US with her two German kids. She hated Hogan's Heroes because she said it depicted Germans as stupid. She would ride her bicycle miles into the countryside during the war to do sewing and fine needlework (she was upper class) for uneducated farmers in exchange for a couple of eggs to feed her children.

Germany was in such dire straits by then and the weekly meat ration was 1/4 pound of meat for adults. That's the same as a McDonald's burger patty once a week. She and her parents gave their meat rations to her two children. The children were malnourished by the time the war ended.

From memory, the allies deliberately starved the German population for around 2 years after the war, and many thousands of Germans died as a result.
Red Cross food supplies rotted in the transport trains.

Germany had the largest number of deaths of children across the world at that time, I believe.
This was part of the hidden retribution against all Germans, guilty or not guilty of nazi atrocities.
There was even a plan to poison the water supply with the intention of killing millions, but it didn't eventuate.
Presumably, murder through starvation was less conspicuous.

She saw the trains carrying Jews to what the German people were told were "relocation camps" where they would grow food and have homes to live in. She said that ordinary people like her did not know about the concentration camps and the slaughtering of Jews. Those government extermination programs were concealed from the general population.

My mother was a teenager and wasn't aware of the atrocities either.
The atrocity was so epic that most people couldn't conceive that such a thing could have been done.
The nazi administration made sure to muddy the facts, and the rumours were usually seen as propaganda.

 

[Cyber]

I don't believe the general populace of Germany, particularly young housewives like my grandmother, knew what was going on. Even the Jews didn't understand what was happening until it was too late.

There will always be some people who blame the Russian people for Stalin and Putin, blame Italians for Mussolini, blame Ugandans for Idi Amin, etc.

Yeah I can't really comment. Goldhagen said many Germans blamed Jewish banks for losing WW1 in 1919 and conspiracies ran wild so when Nazis said stuff about Jews he claimed everyone knew about the rounding up (I do find it stretching incredulity nobody didn't notice brownshirts rounding up gays, communists, anti-Hitler folk, academics, Jews, gypsies or Slavs in their street/neighbourhoods).

The Germans kept meticulous records of all their deeds so administration, book-keeping, goods and services, supplies employing millions of German civilians. Sure some wouldn't have asked questions but I do think many knew a lot more than they were willing to admit.

 

[UFO]

From memory, the allies deliberately starved the German population for around 2 years after the war, and many thousands of Germans died as a result.
Red Cross food supplies rotted in the transport trains.

Germany had the largest number of deaths of children across the world at that time, I believe.
This was part of the hidden retribution against all Germans, guilty or not guilty of nazi atrocities.
There was even a plan to poison the water supply with the intention of killing millions, but it didn't eventuate.
Presumably, murder through starvation was less conspicuous.

That is not true, unless you are referring to just the Soviet controlled East-Germany. Even they didn't have to deliberately cause the famine (thought they kind of did), as the whole USSR was messed up and Moscow and St. Petersburg areas have always been prioritized by Russia. East-Germany was stripped of all resources so Stalin could keep those Moscow and St. Petersburg areas up and going. But yeah, those allegations fit mostly to USSR, though I doubt that there are any factually known conspiracies like purposeful poisoning attempts or genocides. Pretty sure that archives of USSR would have had at least some notes about that as there has been even worse records available (they loved documentation).

What happened was that after the war Germany was in pieces. Infrastructure was destroyed, logistics were destroyed, millions of country's internal refugees alone, more millions to feed, poor harvests, cold winters etc. It didn't help that during the first years after the war Western allies were cautious to allow Germany to rebuild its industry and nation without supervision (they thought how WW1 led to WW2). This politics quickly changed as USA saw the risk of pushing the country toward communism if they were not integrated to the West.

Chaos was the real explanation for first year's famine, not conspiracy. There is no evidence about anything else. Those claims are just yet more conspiracy theories among stuff like "holocaust didn't happen, it was all the allies' fabrication".

 

[Mary Terry]

I tend to see such considerations being complicated, based largely on two major factors:

* Geographical and physical proximity to mass murder.
* The likelihood of military versus civilian exposure to such atrocities.

Most civilians physically and geographically removed from concentrations camps in urban areas of Germany probably didn't know, short of being directly involved as party administrators. However OTOH those living nearby weren't stupid, either. Knowing not to ask questions yet being able to see, hear and smell something most unnatural. Do as you're told and do not ask questions. A major tenet of life in a totalitarian system, apart from a culture that inherently respected authority. With many citizens instantly in denial if questioned, just out of an understandable sense for self-preservation.

Conversely for so many Germans serving on the Eastern Front, I suspect it would have been difficult for them not to see so many actions taken against civilians in terms of race and having partaken in partisan actions or political administrators resulting in summary executions. Not to mention that the Einsatzgruppen who conducted so many such murders in occupied territories consisted from both the ranks of the regular army, as well as the SS. In other words, far too many witnesses for such events to deny that they happened.

Hearing from former veterans of the US Army who actually liberated such camps on the Western Front and that portion of Germany they occupied towards the end of the war seemed pretty certain that the locals nearby knew exactly what was happening. Being quite skeptical of German civilians so apt to proclaim, "Ich bin kein Nazi!" (I am not a Nazi). Though it could also be surmised that a soldier's impression of the Germans would be prejudiced, fueled by victory.

There was also a common element of incredulity amongst Jews and gentiles alike. The rational notion that mass murder on such a scale was morally and ethically inconceivable. Even as Nazi oppression incrementally increased in the 30s, many Jews always thought that there would be point in time when such acts would diminish or even cease altogether to further national policy among the civilized world. -Which never happened.

As far as blame for entire populations regarding such regimes, the dynamics of totalitarianism seldom change. That in the beginning of such struggles the masses certainly played their part in them, but not all of them. Conversely once most any totalitarian regime is firmly in power, that the slightest degree of political dissent becomes nearly impossible without the threat of imprisonment or death. When day-to-day existence for most citizens is like "being in a vacuum" being subject to a barrage of forced obedience and propaganda.

With opposing views of thought on such issues, there's no telling what Hollywood would or will do when it comes to the truth of such events outside the realm of a pure documentary, if there even is such a thing among creators of mass media these days. That their primary goal remains entertainment rather than enlightenment, all to accrue box office receipts and perpetuate shareholder equity.

Leaving real creativity and historical accuracy primarily to only a few independent filmmakers who may have less financial obligations to themselves and private investors. Though they too may also be at times more interested in the art of film than those same considerations of historical accuracy. Yet another reason to sense that historical accuracy in the media will remain within hopes and dreams at best.

Weren't most of the concentration camps (Auschwitz, Treblinka, Soldau, Krakow Plaszow, etc.) located in Poland, not Germany? Without television or the internet and with print media being restricted to Nazi propaganda, it's easy to understand why ordinary German civilians had no clue about what was really happening.

 

[Judge]

Weren't most of the concentration camps (Auschwitz, Treblinka, Soldau, Krakow Plaszow, etc.) located in Poland, not Germany?

No. Tragically there were any number of concentration camps and sub-camps with Germany itself, along with Nazi pre-war euthanasia centers.

First perhaps to consider the distinction between concentration camps and extermination camps, along with euthanasia centers. And then to consider the staggering number of deaths that occurred in all such places, whether within Germany's wartime borders or outside them.

And how much the Reich geographically expanded from 1938 to 1945 far beyond its original prewar borders. And how many ethnic Germans lived as German citizens, relocating to what were previously parts of Austria (Ostmark), Poland, the Sudentenland, Bohemia-Moravia and France's Alsace-Lorraine.

The most well-known extermination camps were outside Germany's borders:

* Auschwitz-Birkenau (Poland)
* Chelmno (Poland)
* Belzec (Poland)
* Sobibir (Poland)
* Treblinka (Poland)
* Majdanek (Poland)

German/Annexed Austrian Euthanasia Centers:

* Bernberg (Germany)
* Brandenberg (Germany)
* Grafeneck (Germany)
* Hadamar (Germany)
* Sonnenstein (Germany)
* Am Spiegelgrund (Ostmark)
* Gugging (Ostmark)
* Hartheim (Ostmark)

Major concentration camps within Germany (not counting sub-camps) from 1933 to 1945:

* Neuengamme
* Ravenbruck
* Stutthof (Danzig)
* Bergen-Belsen
* Sachsenhausen
* Buchenwald
* Gross Rosen
* Flossenburg
* Theresienstadt (Bohemia/Moravia)
* Natzweiler (Alsace-Lorraine)
* Dachau
* Mauthausen (Ostmark)

Major Concentration Camp Outside Germany:

* Vucht (Netherlands)

The exact total number of concentration camps and sub-camps is unclear. Though estimates place them up to 1,000 and beyond. Other sources list the number as far higher, anywhere from 15,000 to 44,000 inside and outside Germany. Probably an estimate of all sub-camps accounted for.